Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Here’s the schedule for the Metamorphoses:

June 11 - Book 1
June 18 - Books 2-3
June 25 - Books 4-5
July 2 — Books 6-7
July 9 — Books 8-9
July 16 - Books 10-11
July 23 - Books 12-13
July 30 - Books 14-15, Book as a whole

There are many, many translations of the Metamorphoses. I have Allen Mandelbaum’s translation in the Everyman edition — it’s very readable, but has no notes. Here’s the beginning:

“My soul would sing of metamorphoses.
But since, o gods, you were the source of these
bodies becoming other bodies, breathe
your breath into my book of changes: may
the song I sing be seamless as its way
weaves from the worlds’s beginning to our day.”

I’ve also got the Rolfe Humphries’ translation annotated by J. D. Reed. Here’s that version’s beginning:

“My intention is to tell of bodies changed
To different forms; the gods, who made the changes,
Will help me — or I hope so — with a poem
That runs from the world’s beginning to our own days.”

What translation will you be reading?

I have the Charles Martin translation (Norton):

My mind leads me to speak now of forms changed
into new bodies: O gods above, inspire
this undertaking (which you've changed as well)
and guide my poem in its epic sweep
from the world's beginning to the present day.

I was going to read Stanley Lombardo's translation.

First lines

My mind now turns to stories of bodies changed
Into new forms. O Gods, inspire my beginnings
(For you changed them too) and spin a poem that extends
From the world’s first origins down to my own time.

I will read it in Portuguese in a Penguin edition.

I'll be reading the new translation by Stephanie McCarter (Metamorphoses) because I bought what she was selling in some YouTube videos about how she translates. I think it will flow and read quickly.

My spirit moves to tell of shapes transformed
into new bodies. Gods, inspire my work
(for you've transformed it too) and from creation
to my own time spin out unceasing song.

I also picked up this gem (Ovid's Metamorphoses : The Arthur Golding Translation of 1567). It is the translation Shakespeare would have read and maybe it will be possible to see clear connections to his poetry and plays. The spelling, wordchoice, rhythm, and rhyme make me happy. When reading it I feel the urge to read it outloud.

Of shapes transformde to bodies straunge, I purpose to entreate,
Ye gods vouchsafe (for you are they ywrought this wondrous feate)
To further this mine enterprise. And from the world begunne,
Graunt that my verse may to my time, his course directly runne.

Michael, I also have those translations and hope to follow along with both, and maybe even the latin. I have been lurking on the edges of the group for years. Rarely have I been able to keep up, but perhaps this time. It’s been many years since I've read Metamorphoses in university.

Janice wrote: "Michael, I also have those translations and hope to follow along with both, and maybe even the latin. I have been lurking on the edges of the group for years. Rarely have I been able to keep up, bu..."

I might peek at the latin sometimes too, but that requires a lot of work my side so I don't suppose it will be often.

There is also the Ovide Moralisé. A fourteenth-century French version that allegorizes the stories for Christian religious purposes. Chaucer would have used it (along with the original Latin) as a source and inspiration, particularly for his Pyramus and Thisbe. Again, my French is limited so I'm sure how often I'll reference it. https://archive.org/details/ovidemora...

For peninsular influence, I may look at Alfonso X El Sabio and his historicizing and moralizing takes in General Estoria. It is much more accessible to me but the General Estoria as a project was to write a world history. It contains a mashup Ovid, other Latin sources, and the Bible.

Michael wrote: "Janice wrote: "Michael, I also have those translations and hope to follow along with both, and maybe even the latin. I have been lurking on the edges of the group for years. Rarely have I been able..."

Thanks so much for the "Ovide moralisé" reference, I'll probably read it alongside the "real" translation.

La_mariane wrote: "Thanks so much for the "Ovide moralisé" reference, I'll probably read it alongside the "real" translation..."

I look forward to hearing about any interesting finds.

Michael wrote: "La_mariane wrote: "Thanks so much for the "Ovide moralisé" reference, I'll probably read it alongside the "real" translation..."

I look forward to hearing about any interesting finds."

We'll see how it goes because my Middle French is very rusty...

I have over half a dozen translations, mostly on my Kindle, including many of those mentioned (Golding’s Elizabethan version among them). I may compare where differences arise. And resort in desperation to my Latin (which never got past Virgil, and has rusted away) in the bilingual Delphi Complete Works. I don’t think much of the old verse and prose translations it contains, but it is cheap and useful for tracking cross-references to other works by Ovid.

I will probably be relying heavily on the extensive commentary in Michael Simpson’s prose translation (2001: corrected edition 2004). The translation appears to be very accurate, but often rather lifeless (on a second reading, anyway), so I am not giving it a wholehearted endorsement.

I’ll be reading Rolfe Humphries’s translation! Can’t wait.

Rolfe Humphries’ 1955 translation was, I think, the first I read after Mary Innes’s prose translation from Penguin, also 1955. Or maybe in the reverse order: it would have been in the late 1960s. Humphries’s version was in reissued in 2018 with a welcome commentary by J.D. Reed, which I also intend to use.

Ovid is sometimes reduced, especially in adaptations/retellings, to a simple storyteller, but he was a sophisticated poet who played games with the expectations of an educated audience, and for moderns informed support is useful. Other ages had their own, mostly allegorical, modes of making sense of it.

Another translation with a supplement is in the Oxford World’s Classics series, a verse rendering by A.D. Melville (1986), with an Introduction and Notes by E.J. Kenney.

(Some may have a problem with Melville’s Translator’s Note, in which he goes out of his way to disparage Mary Innes’ old Penguin prose translation — the established competition — and also American translators *as a category.* Not really a class act.)

Ian wrote: "Ovid is sometimes reduced, especially in adaptations/retellings, to a simple storyteller, but he was a sophisticated poet who played games with the expectations of an educated audience, and for moderns informed support is useful..."

I'm here for it. I suspect much of that will fly by unobserved, but maybe I can catch some of the references and games before they go over my head.

I had forgotten that I did a bibliographic info dump on material relating to Metamorphoses three years ago, for another discussion (in which, due in part to illness, I didn’t otherwise contribute much). To save copying, I will simply point to the thread in question, at https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I note that I was then more enthusiastic about the Michael Simpson translation than I was when I tried re-reading it a few months ago. But see the review by a professional classicist to which I provided a link.

The link I supplied doesn't seem to work on some of my devices (iPad and iPhone), only on my desktop computer. If you are having the problem, don't have a computer hand, and want to find it, go to Goodreads Group:
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!), under Old School Classics, Pre-1915, topic "Metamorphoses by Ovid -- No Spoiler." The opening date is October 31, 2021. There are two pages, mostly me dropping in chunks of bibliography I don't want to repeat here, but some of which may be useful. (I've already duplicated a bit of it).

I have both the Rolfe Humphries (1955) translation and a later one by David Raeburn published by Penguin (2004). I've decided to go with the Raeburn translation this time around and just spent an enjoyable afternoon reading Book 1.

I have to have the Horace Gregory translation from Signet Classics on my bookshelf, so that's the one I'll be reading.

The only recent (if 2005 counts) translation I would warn against, based on a devastating review by a classicist, is that by Ambrose in the Focus Classical Library. The series is usually pretty dependable, so I think it worth mentioning the matter.

I just was able to pick up the 2004 Charles Martin translation from the library today!

There is a discussion of Golding’s translation by Gordon Braden, on enotes, at https://www.enotes.com/topics/arthur-...

Is anyone posting here a link to a discussion thread? Or do we continue here for the time being?

Yes, a new discussion thread will be posted shortly for Week 1.

Thank you

Hi all - I'm new to the group and thanks to Janet for telling me about it. I'm a bit late to the party but I am reading the Raeburn translation and also listening to the audio book of it at the same time, which I find both enjoyable and helpful. Though I got a bit of a late start, I am on track now with the reading schedule.

The party has just started. We're in the first week (and in the first book) yet.

Zuska wrote: "Hi all - I'm new to the group and thanks to Janet for telling me about it. I'm a bit late to the party but I am reading the Raeburn translation and also listening to the audio book of it at the sam..."

Welcome, Zuska! Glad you can join us in exploring The Metamorphoses. As Rafael says, the party has just started ;).

Hi everyone - I’m new to this group, too. This will also be the first classic I’ve ever read. Really looking forward to this and trying not to feel too intimidated 😊

We're all very friendly but sometimes post confusing thoughts, not intended to intimidate :)

I gave this a couple of hours of thought. I can’t tell exactly what you had in mind by “classic.” Did you mean great literature in general, or, as I first supposed, Greek and Latin literature, traditionally “The Classics.”

If the second, you may have trouble with keeping the cast straight, and distinguishing characters who were supposed to be as well known then as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are now from those hardly anyone had ever heard of. My advice would be to find an edition with a character-index/glossary, with helpful hints like “Jupiter, also known as Jove, King of the Gods and husband of Juno.” Possibly with Greek equivalents.

˖˳·˖ ִֶָ ⋆ rach ⋆ ִֶָ˖·˳˖ wrote: "Hi everyone - I’m new to this group, too. This will also be the first classic I’ve ever read. Really looking forward to this and trying not to feel too intimidated 😊"

Welcome! You’ve picked a great book to start with. Ovid’s retelling of Roman/Greek myths is quite entertaining. Get ready to meet the mythic gods as they behave way too much like humans, but with limitless powers, and mythic humans behaving just like humans ;). New classic readers are welcome, and your thoughts/questions may provide a perspective that gives other readers a new view, too, so don’t hesitate to jump in.

For anyone who wants background on the Roman/Greek gods, there are numerous resources online. Here’s a quick cheat sheet to start with: https://msbeland.weebly.com/uploads/3.... And Ovid introduces them as he tells his tales.

Ian wrote: "I gave this a couple of hours of thought. I can’t tell exactly what you had in mind by “classic.” Did you mean great literature in general, or, as I first supposed, Greek and Latin literature, trad..."

It's most definitely the latter. I've never even attempted to read such a thing, but I'm really loving the perspectives everyone is sharing so far which made me want to join in and try. No doubt I'll have lots of questions for you all :)

The copy I have is translated by Raeburn since I was told was the easiest to understand (?).

Susan wrote: "For anyone who wants background on the Roman/Greek gods, there are numerous resources online. Here’s a quick cheat sheet to start with: https://msbeland.weebly.com/uploads/3......"

Thank you so much for this - much appreciated!

Michael wrote: "We're all very friendly but sometimes post confusing thoughts, not intended to intimidate :)"

And I'll be there with my mountains of questions, no doubt :)

There are problems with that “cheat sheet.”

For example, Helios, the Sun (Latin Sol) is not always the same as Apollo, although they are identified in Ovid. And Hyperion is sometimes a Titan of an earlier generation, father of Helios, not his synonym or epithet.

And Aurora is the Roman equivalent of Greek Eos, Homer’s rosy-fingered dawn. (Of less pertinence both are linguistically equivalent to the Sanskrit Ushas, also a dawn goddess.) Eos/Aurora is a fairly minor character in Greek sources, but there is a suspicion in some circles that her myths and cult were absorbed into those of Aphrodite (Venus), leaving a convenient personification behind.

ICYMI, a good online resource for classics is the Perseus website. For “The Metamorphoses,” they offer online the Latin, an English translation and the Elizabethan English Arthur Golding translation: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...

Several of this week’s tales refer to the art/craft of weaving. That’s not surprising since pre-industrial age, many women spent most of their time on weaving and related work to make clothing, etc. For anyone interested in recent theories and discoveries about weaving and cloth work in the ancient world based on archeological findings and cultural research, I recommend a fascinating book —
Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years: Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times by Elizabeth Wayland Barber

Susan wrote: "For anyone interested in recent theories and discoveries about weaving and cloth work in the ancient world based on archeological findings and cultural research, I recommend a fascinating book —
Women's Work: The First 20,000 Years: Women, Cloth, and Society in Early Times by Elizabeth Wayland Barber.."

That looks really interesting. I've put it on my TBR. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, Susan.