The History Book Club discussion
THE SECOND WORLD WAR
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SECOND WORLD WAR -GENERAL DISCUSSION
Mod
The causes, events and people of the most destructive war in history.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwar...
Can I suggest as good overview study the following title; "Second World War" by Martin Gilbert and "The Struggle for Europe" by Chester Wilmont offer a pretty good overview from 1944 onwards.If you like I'd be happy to provide some suggested titles for specific campaigns and battles of WW2.
Rick,Those look like interesting books. I've added the covers for you, and links to the authors (there aren't author pictures on goodreads for these authors yet).
Martin Gilbert
Chester WilmotAny other books you have to suggest are always appreciated.
Mod
Rick, by all means please suggest titles for specific campaigns and battles of WW2; please note if these selections are either fiction or non fiction and if you can (I will be happy to show you) add both the links to the books' covers and a link to the author (if the photo is not available)...it is helpful to the group to have both added (book and author) for easy cross-referencing and research. And it only really takes a minute longer per add once you get the hang of it (adding both book cover and author are invaluable aids).
Thank you so much; I look forward to your adds and recommendations. You have added so much already to the group's list and I can see that you are already a valued member.
Mantle of Heroism Tarawa and the Struggle for the Gilberts, November 1943Iwo Jima Legacy of ValorPeleliu Tragic Triumph The Untold Story of the Pacific War's Forgotten BattlePeleliu Tragic Triumph The Untold Story of the Pacific War's Forgotten BattleTennozan The Battle of Okinawa and the Atomic BombKilling Ground on Okinawa The Battle for Sugar Loaf Hill'Aussie Rick' again, just added a few books covering the fighting in the Pacific during WW2. These book mainly cover US forces but I will add a few covering my own countrymen a bit later. I would be interested to hear from anyone out there who also enjoyed this books. Also thanks Bentley for the heads-up on the add book/author function, what a great tool, love it.
Mod
I can see that you are giving adding the books..the old college try. However, the first one is the only one that has the cover and the author links are missing. I will try to help you out until you get the hang of it. You have to make sure that you have checked off cover at the bottom versus link to get all covers.
Joseph H. AlexanderThis is how I did the above:
1. Click on add book/author link
2. Click on the book tab at top
3. Type in the name of the book - in this case Utmost Savagery
4. Make sure at the bottom beside the word add: that you have checked off the word cover and not link
5. Click add beside the book of choice and now you will get the bookcover below:
6. Because we also want the link to the authors noted there is still another step to go, you will have to click add book/add author again and go back in; you should still see the book info you entered; now look back at the top where you had clicked on the book tab
7. Now click the author tab while you have the name of the book still showing.
8. After doing that you will be taken to the list of authors, be sure to notice that the bottom tabs have now changed from link or cover to link or photo.
9. If there is a photo beside your author's name, check photo, if there is not one and just their name...then make sure to click link
10. Now that you are sure of the above, simply click add beside the author's name and since there was no photo and I clicked link below; you will get the following:
Joseph H. Alexander
If I do these in order, it will look like this:
Joseph H. AlexanderAnd now you can click post and post your info. If you need to add more just click edit and go back in to your comment box.
Sometimes there is a photo for your author as in the case of Tolstoy..then I would look for War and Peace (add that book cover), go back in to add book/author again and click on the author tab, click on photo because Tolstoy has a photo and then add that. It would look like the following:
Hope this helps,
Bentley
Another hint for adding book covers and author pictures/links: I like to use the "preview" button (just after the "post" button) to check out how it will look. I often find things were in different places than I planned, and that is fixable. Plus you can always edit your posts after they are posted, as Bentley said.
Mod
I will add it to the directions next time.
Rick's recommendations:
Michael Graham
Bill D. Ross
George Feifer
James H. HallasRick, did I get them all?
I will keep working on the add author/book function till I get it right, thanks for the handy hints and thanks Elizabeth for mentioning the preview button, I'll get it right soon I promise!
Mod
It might help to just add one book cover and one author first (so you can see the format of how goodreads sets them up). Easier to see with the preview button; then you can move them around at will after that.
The preview will show all of the flaws before you have to click post.
Aussie Rick again, here's a few favourites of mine covering the Australian involvement in the Second World War.
Paul Ham
Peter Thompson
&
Peter FitzSimons
Peter Brune
Bruce Gamble
I really enjoyed and highly recommend the Eisenhower bio by Stephen Ambrose
Has anyone read Eisenhower's book Crusade? I am interested in reading this someday. I can't find a link for it.
Mod
Mod
http://www.history.com/content/wwii-i...
http://www.history.com/content/wwii-i...
There are even quite a few videos and info right on this site.
Two excellent books on Americans in the European war are the recent ones by Rick Atkinson
An Army at Dawn The War in Africa, 1942-1943 and 
The Day of Battle The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 He is working on the third and last volume on the fighting in northwestern Europe.
All are excellent and provide a good overview of the first two years of Americans fighting the Germans and the Italians.
The best autobiography of an American infantry man fighting in Europe is Charles McDonald's Company Commander The Classic Infantry Memoir of World War II
Mod
I added the author links.
Rick AtkinsonCharles B. MacDonald
Rick had a photo!
'Aussie Rick', I have read nearly all of Rick Atkinson's books including his two books covering US forces during WW2 which have been great. I have heard his final volume isn't due out till 2011. One good book I read recently covering American and Australian forces fighting in New Guinea during WW2 was:
by James Campbell
Thanks Rick for the recommendation; the only thing I have read on New Guinea is Bloody Buna
Lida MayoWhat tough guys! I felt the mud the whole time.
John wrote: "Thanks Rick for the recommendation; the only thing I have read on New Guinea is Bloody BunaLida MayoWhat tough guys! I felt the mud the whole t..."
Hi John, Buna was a hell of a fight, terrible conditions and a hard & tough enemy. If you follow up on the book I hope you enjoy it. I worry sometimes in recommending titles as people's taste in books is a varied as people's taste in wine!
I Figured I would add some of my favourite WW2 Eastern Front titles in case there are other like minded or interested people out there:
by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann
by William Craig
by Antony Beevor
by Harrison E. Salisbury
by David M. Glantz
by Heinz Guderian
by Erich Von Manstein
and
by Paul Carell
by Alan Clark
by Richard Overy
by Guy Sajer
by Gunther K KoschorrekThis is not all of the books but a good selection. A few new releases that I have not read yet but look very very good are:
and
by David M. Glantz
[image error]
by Victor Kamenir
by Mark HealyI'd be happy to discuss these books or any other covering the Eastern Front during WW2.
Mod
Bentley wrote: "Wow..Aussie Rick..what a great post. So many good titles."Hi Bentley, I am sure I saw a post from you somewhere with a few of these titles listed but I couldn't find it. My favourite first hand account use to be "The Forgotten Soldier" until I read "In Deadly Combat", by chance have you read that book?
Mod
I have not read the other.
Mod
Bentley,
Paul Watkins is one of my all time favorite authors. A terrific researcher when it comes to fiction. But his non-fiction is as fascinating.
His first book was Night Over Day Over Night about a Hitler Youth joining the SS in 44. Paul wrote in when he was 22. Amazing, the talent and the way he tried to grow into his characters.
Mod
http://www.paulwatkins.com/bio.htm
I recently read this book covering the history of the Torpedo Squadron Eight during the Pacific campaign of WW2. Overall I found it a very good account of this famous aviation unit and it may interest some other readers out there.
by Robert J. MrazekAs a result of enjoying "A Dawn Like Thunder" I also purchased a copy of:
by David SearsHowever at this stage I have not read this book although it has received some very good reviews.
Other books covering the same topic that I have read over the years and I consider worthwhile for those interested in the suject include:
by M.G. Sheftall
by Maxwell Taylor Kennedy
by Russell Spurr
by F. Julian Becton"On April 16th, 1945 whilst at radar picket station number 1 the USS LAFFEY was attacked by twenty-two Japanese aircraft. The destroyer took a hell of a beating but managed to stay afloat after massive damage and the loss of 32 men killed and 71 wounded, some with horrific injuries.
I found that I managed to feel a deep respect not only for the crew, that's expected of course, but also for the Japanese flyers. I don't know if that was the author's intention but occasionally he would describe something that allowed you to visualize the young Japanese pilot in his cockpit as his plane is closing in for the final plunge into eternity. Then it hits you that these poor pilots were young men just doing their duty for their country just as much as the young American's trying to shoot them down.
The narrative at times may come across a bit "corny" to some readers but the book was first published in 1980 and I believe the author is just conveying the feelings of those who served at that time. The story moves along at a quick pace and you really feel for some of the men, the silent heroes in this terrible incident, who died at their posts or in trying to save their ship mates. This is a good book and a great story of one ship and its brave crew during the Second World War. I have no hesitation in recommending this book to anyone who enjoys accounts of naval combat or stories of the fighting during WW2."
Mod
Bentley wrote: "Thank you so much Aussie Rick for the time that you took in bringing these recommendations to our attention and framing them the way you did."Hi Bentley, its my pleasure, I hope to bring as many good books as I can to this forum and maybe a few people will like what they see and follow up in reading one of the books or at least provoke a discussion or two.
I figured I'd offer some aviation titles in case some members had an interest in that genre. These are but a few of some of the better books available:
by Geoffrey Wellum
by Phil Craig
by Stephen Bungay
by Patrick BishopFor our Canadian friends:
Reap the Whirlwind The Untold Story of 6 Group, Canada's Bomber Force of World War II by Spencer Dunmore
"'Reap The Whirlwind' is one of the best books I have read in recent years on the men and machines of the Royal Air Force's Bomber Command during World War Two. First published in 1992 by Crecy Books Ltd this title tells the "untold" story of 6 Group, Canada's bomber force of WWII. As the title suggests the story is about the role of the Canadian contribution to the nighttime bomber campaign against occupied Europe during the Second World War.
However the stories within the book reflect the awful war as experienced by all bomber crews during this horrific campaign. I found the personal accounts to be sad, heroic and sometimes funny but the image that remained in my mind after finishing this book was the untold numbers of men who died and never had the chance to tell their stories. How many crews left their bases on a mission never to return and none of their comrades and families ever knew what happened to them?
They were swallowed up in the dark of night and became victims of German night-fighters or flak, their planes never seen again. After reading this book you'll get an understanding of what these men went through, some of the stories are just mind numbing. In particular is the story of Andrew C. Mynarski, 6 Group's sole Victoria Cross winner. This brave 27-year-old Canadian was a mid-upper gunner on a 419 Squadron Lancaster who lost his life during a mission in June 1944 (pages 276-278).
The narrative is fast paced, informative but never boring or dull. The story is well told and is a brilliant account of the harsh realities of an aerial bombing campaign as conducted by the RAF over Germany. The book starts with an introduction to the first bomber offensive in 1917 and finishes with an account of the 1990 reunion of the survivors. The authoritative text has numerous personal accounts of the aircrews woven into the story and overall the book reads well.
The only complaint I have with this book is the standard of the photographs. I would have liked more and of a better quality. Regardless of that this is still a great story and I think that anyone who has an interest in this period or who really wants to understand why these men did what they did and what happened to them then this is the book to read."
Some great accounts covering the USAAF:
by Brian D. O'Neill and
by Gerald Astor 
by Charles W. Sweeney &
by Martin Middlebrook.Or Go Down in Flame A Navigator's Death over Schweinfurt by W. Raymond Wood
Some Bomber Command accounts from one of the greatest English authors:
and
by Martin MiddlebrookThe Battle of Hamburg Allied Bomber Forces Against a German City in 1943 by Martin Middlebrook
Cassell Military Classics The Berlin Raids RAF Bomber Command Winter 1943-44 by Martin Middlebrook
Mod
Hi WWII folksI am not following this - I am interested but too busy
Here is an op-ed piece from today's NY Times you may find of interest
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
November 23, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
How World War II Wasn’t Won
By DAVID P. COLLEY
Easton, Pa.
SIXTY-FIVE years ago, in November 1944, the war in Europe was at a stalemate. A resurgent Wehrmacht had halted the Allied armies along Germany’s borders after its headlong retreat across northern France following D-Day. From Holland to France, the front was static — yet thousands of Allied soldiers continued to die in futile battles to reach the Rhine River.
One Allied army, however, was still on the move. The Sixth Army Group reached the Rhine at Strasbourg, France, on Nov. 24, and its commander, Lt. Gen. Jacob L. Devers, looked across its muddy waters into Germany. His force, made up of the United States Seventh and French First Armies, 350,000 men, had landed Aug. 15 near Marseille — an invasion largely overlooked by history but regarded at the time as “the second D-Day” — and advanced through southern France to Strasbourg. No other Allied army had yet reached the Rhine, not even hard-charging George Patton’s.
Devers dispatched scouts over the river. “There’s nobody in those pillboxes over there,” a soldier reported. Defenses on the German side of the upper Rhine were unmanned and the enemy was unprepared for a cross-river attack, which could unhinge the Germans’ southern front and possibly lead to the collapse of the entire line from Holland to Switzerland.
The Sixth Army Group had assembled bridging equipment, amphibious trucks and assault boats. Seven crossing sites along the upper Rhine were evaluated and intelligence gathered. The Seventh Army could cross north of Strasbourg at Rastatt, Germany, advance north along the Rhine Valley to Karlsruhe, and swing west to come in behind the German First Army, which was blocking Patton’s Third Army in Lorraine. The enemy would face annihilation, and the Third and Seventh Armies could break loose and drive into Germany. The war might end quickly.
Devers never crossed. Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the supreme commander, visited Devers’s headquarters that day and ordered him instead to stay on the Rhine’s west bank and attack enemy positions in northern Alsace. Devers was stunned. “We had a clean breakthrough,” he wrote in his diary. “By driving hard, I feel that we could have accomplished our mission.” Instead the war of attrition continued, giving the Germans a chance to counterattack three weeks later in what became known as the Battle of the Bulge, which cost 80,000 American dead and wounded.
Garrison Davidson, then Devers’s engineering officer and later a superintendent of West Point, believed Devers’s attack would have succeeded and pre-empted the Bulge, writing, “I have often wondered what might have happened had Ike had the audacity to take a calculated risk, as General Patton would have.” Patton wrote in his diary that he also believed Eisenhower had missed a great opportunity; the Seventh Army’s commander, Lt. Gen. Alexander Patch, felt the same way.
Why did Eisenhower refuse to allow Devers to cross? Eisenhower disliked Devers — a prim teetotaler who rubbed many gruff Army commanders the wrong way — and refused to include him among the generals fighting in northern France. Devers was appointed to lead the southern invasion by the Army chief of staff, George Marshall. Eisenhower would likely have fired Devers once the Sixth Army Group fell under his command in September 1944, but Devers had powerful patrons in Marshall and President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Eisenhower was also a cautious, some would say indecisive, commander who favored a “broad front” strategy with all Allied armies moving in tandem on a solid front. His military objective was Germany’s main industrial area to the north, the Ruhr. Devers was operating too far south to help that effort.
True, the Germans knew the Ruhr was vital to them and fiercely defended it. But, as we know from several of their generals’ postwar memoirs, what they really feared was an incursion across the Rhine, which would have been a military catastrophe and a devastating symbolic blow to the German people.
The Rhine wasn’t crossed until March 1945. Had Eisenhower let Devers make his attack, we might now be celebrating the 65th anniversary of a cross-Rhine attack that quickly ended the war in Europe. Instead, we will soon mark the anniversary of the costliest battle in American history, the Battle of the Bulge.
David P. Colley is the author of “Decision at Strasbourg: Ike’s Strategic Mistake to Halt the Sixth Army Group at the Rhine in 1944.”
Mod
Isn't it a shame that a bias probably cost 80,000 lives. Our generals and our presidents make good calls and bad ones and this was obviously one of Ike's bad ones. Great article.
BentleyI think if Mr. Colley's evaluation is correct we could have saved many men but I don't know that much but, and I am generally an Eisenhower fan, I would have to read/know more before coming to that judgement.
General Patton might have been more aggessive but had he been in Eisenhower's position I think we would have had a tougher time in Europe.
Eisenhower walked a tightrope of supplies and politics - it is food for thought so maybe we will get to where I will see more when we do some comprehensive work with WWII or I personally take the time.
I would note however that the influence is maybe on me of the various Ambrose works which, he being a primary Eisenhower biographer, generally leaned in the positive for Eisenhower but I had a positive attitude about Eisenhower before I knew Ambrose's works.
Mod
I really have had no personal experience with Ike. Wearing my moderator hat, I point out both the good and the bad about any subject.
Vince, I like the fact that you present evaluations (like this New York Times article) that present both sides (the flattering and the not so flattering). I think everybody can decide for themselves how they feel about Ike, Devers or any of the others.
Ike generally has a middle of the road public persona (he is not considered one of our greatest presidents) but he certainly comes out as a very decent one. And I am not so sure if I place too much stock in polls anyways. Folks usually say the first names that come into mind (I think the ones who have public holidays - smile).
As far as Eisenhower, I think he was around politics all of his life...army life can be extremely political at his level.
General Patton does have a tougher persona but I wonder whether things would have been better for some of the Europeans in the long run. It is so hard to say after the fact..we are all Monday morning quarterbacks and in my case I wasn't even alive yet to experience any of these folks.
But it is fun talking about them. Thanks for being here and thanks for the article
Not sure if I can agree with Colley. Monty's failed narrow front effort at Arnhem confirmed Eisenhower's broad-front view and Ike didn't want to try it again. Plus I think he knew that the war would only end with the destruction of Germany in the figure of Adolph Hitler. In addition, the broad front helped to convince the Russians that we were serious in upholding our part of the war. If Ike wouldn't let Patton lead a narrow attack he sure wouldn't let Devers lead one (no matter what Ike thought of them personally).Just finished reading Steel Victory by Harry Yeide
Harry Yeideabout the American Independent Tank Battalions in Western Europe. It was not a reader's book, but more of a short, choppy overview of these units. You'll have to know quite a bit of the American war in northwest Europe to follow the text.
Mod
But regarding Colley...don't you think that if the Germans were caught off guard and lives could have been saved it would have been worth it? This did seem to be a strategic mistake on the part of Ike. Maybe we were too concerned about what the Russians were thinking.
Vince wrote: "Hi WWII folksI am not following this - I am interested but too busy
Here is an op-ed piece from today's NY Times you may find of interest
---------------------------------------..."
A book by Charles Whiting covers the story of the American Seventh Army. It is the only book I have read on this topic so I don't feel I can comment on the accuracy. It was a good read and covered a part of WWII that I had not heard of before.
WHITING CHARLES
Dhenning1950 wrote: "I really enjoyed and highly recommend the Eisenhower bio by Stephen AmbroseHas anyone read Eisenhower's book Crusade? I am interested in reading this someday. I can't..."
I have read Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe and gained a lot of insight into why Eisenhower made some of the decisions he made, his relationships with the other leaders and his leadership style. Of course, I needed to remind myself that this is a self-serving book. It is Eisenhower's opportunity to respond to his critics. It was also written before his presidential campaign so he may have had that in mind as well.
To tie this in to another topic in this discussion, I don't recall any mention of the Sixth Army Group or the decision to halt it at the Rhine.
I am not sure if spoilers are allowed so please do not continue to read as the next section is a spoiler.
One of the major criticisms he addresses is why he continued to push the offensive through the winter of 44/45. Although he acknowledges the high casualties suffered, he felt there was a real chance of repeating the stalemate of WWI, and an indefinite prolongation of the war, if he came off the offensive. It is interesting to me how I often judge actions based on what I know now, not on what the actors would have know or what their recent experience was. Eisenhower graduated from West Point in 1915 so his early military education would have been dominated by the trench warfare of WWI.
Am I guilty of 20/20 hindsight or was Eisenhower guilty of "fighting the last war" as Generals are often accused of.
Hi folks,I have decided to go back to some books covering the Eastern Front in WW2. I selected a new author, Michael Jones, and have just started reading his latest book covering the German assault on Moscow (Operation Typhoon) in 1941;
by Michael JonesIf this book goes well I have his second book (published before this current book) ready to go on Leningrad;
by Michael JonesThe author states in his introduction that he is currently working on a third volume to cover the period from Stalingrad to Berlin titled; "Total War".
If anyone is interested in this author he has published a few other books on a range of subjects including one on Stalingrad from the Russian perspective titled;
by Michael Jones
Mod
Bentley,I apologize for not doing that correctly after all this time.
Mod
Bentley,Thank-you, your reminders are helpful.
I. too, apologize. I have been trying to do a better job since I posted that on Dec. 1. Thanks for the reminder.Don
i>Bentley wrote: "Dhenning and Erick...one of our requirements is for the book cover and the author's photo or author's link be added for any book mentioned. It helps all of the group members link to the specific b..."
I have moved this over from a previous discussion so Jack can have a look at some WW2 Eastern Front titles:
by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann
by William Craig
by Antony Beevor
by Harrison E. Salisbury
by David M. Glantz
by Heinz Guderian
by Erich Von Manstein
and
by Paul Carell
by Alan Clark
by Richard Overy
by Guy Sajer
by Gunther K KoschorrekThis is not all of the books but a good selection. A few new releases that I have not read yet but look very very good are:
and
by David M. Glantz[image error] by Victor Kamenir
by Mark Healy
The History Book Club
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Please feel free to add any and all discussion information related to this topic area in this thread.
Bentley