The History Book Club discussion

This is a thread devoted to the discussion of the VIETNAM WAR (people, locations, events, books and other publications, battles, historic sites, maps, research information, urls, etc.)

Please feel free to add any and all discussion information related to this topic area in this thread.

Bentley

THE SURPRISING LESSONS OF VIETNAM - NEW NEWSWEEK ARTICLE:
DATE: NOVEMBER 7, 2009

http://www.newsweek.com/id/221632

Some books mentioned in the Newsweek article:

a)

Vietnam A History

Stanley Karnow

b)

A Better War The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America's Last Years in Vietnam

Lewis Sorley

c)

Lessons in Disaster McGeorge Bundy and the Path to War in Vietnam

Gordon M. Goldstein

d)

America's Longest War The United States and Vietnam, 1950-1975 with Poster

George Herring

e)

Triumph Forsaken The Vietnam War, 1954-1965

Mark Moyar

f)

Dereliction of Duty Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam

H.R. McMaster

This is a very interesting article regarding some required reading at the White House and in some previous ones. I will post this article here and in the Afghanistan thread for comments; I guess President Obama is worried about another Vietnam within Afghanistan:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/w...



Lessons in Disaster McGeorge Bundy and the Path to War in Vietnam

Gordon M. Goldstein



The Guns of August

Another good article in the New York Times titled Obama at the Precipice which mirrors what was discussed in message 4:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/opi...

'Aussie Rick' throwing his two-bobs worth in. The book below is one of the best books I have read about the Vietnam War although this title is mainly about the Australian invlovement in this conflict which not many people are aware of. Anyhow if you enjoy good military history I am sure you will enjoy this book.


by Paul Ham

Some of my other favourite books cover the French involvment after WW2 and then the introduction of US forces. Below are a few of my favourite titles.

by Martin Windrow and & by Bernard B. Fall
by Harold G. Moore
by Dale Andrade
by Monika Jenson Stevenson by Marshall L. Michel
by Ralph Wetterhahn
by Neil Sheehan & by David H. Hackworth

The team Australian army advisers in Vietnam 1962-1972 by Ian McNeill

What a great batch of titles. Terrific.

I received a copy of "Allies and Mates" today which is a personal account of an American officer who served with an Australian-New Zealand task force in Veitnam.

by Gordon L. Steinbrook
Publishers blurb:
"Steinbrook served in Vietnam in 1966-1967 as a battery fire-direction officer, an artillery forward observer and an artillery aerial observer. Much of the time, his battery operated in support of the 1st Australian Task Force, including a small contingent from New Zealand, in Phuoc Tuy Province. In letters to his parents and bride, reprinted here along with explanatory comments, the brand-new second lieutenant conveys the boredom of base-camp life and the occasional glancing contact with the Viet Cong. He compares American and Australian clothing, gear, rations and command styles, expressing admiration for Aussie officers, who ``seem much better than ours... they're all so darn professional.'' Steinbrook went willingly to Vietnam and returned beliving he had served a worthwhile cause. The most interesting part of the book is his emotion-packed account of his flight home in May 1967."

Review:
"A solid and important eyewitness account, and a unique treatment of the Aussie-New Zealand-American cooperation on the battlefield in Vietnam." - Al Santoli, author of Everything We Had: An Oral History of the Vietnam War

For those interested in decent accounts of America's involvement in South Vietnam this new book has been receiving some decent reviews:

by Richard Botkin

Publishers blurb:
"In Ride the Thunder, Richard Botkin breaks new ground in telling the heroic story of a few American and Vietnamese Marines who fought brilliantly and turned the tide of the Vietnam War, only to have policymakers surrender the battlefield. Botkin recounts the exploits of the American Marines and their Vietnamese allies who were largely responsible for thwarting the North Vietnamese invasion of the northern portions of South Vietnam—known as the 'Easter Offensive of 1972' in the West that was intended to bring the nation to its knees. These are the men who 'rode the thunder' and almost saved a nation. Botkin tells the story of Captain John Ripley's daring raid to destroy the Dong Ha Bridge; Major Le Ba Binh and his seven hundred Marines bravely holding off more than 20 thousand North Vietnamese troops; Lieutenant Colonel Gerry Turley's leadership and bravery that helped thwart the Easter Offensive—and much more."

Below is a new book covering the battle of Dien Bien Phu which is due for release in the U.S. in February; "Valley of Death: The Tragedy at Dien Bien Phu That Led America into the Vietnam War" by Ted Morgan.

[image error] by Ted Morgan
Publishers blurb:
"Pulitzer Prize–winning author Ted Morgan has now written a rich and definitive account of the fateful battle that ended French rule in Indochina—and led inexorably to America’s Vietnam War. Dien Bien Phu was a remote valley on the border of Laos along a simple rural trade route. But it would also be where a great European power fell to an underestimated insurgent army and lost control of a crucial colony. Valley of Death is the untold story of the 1954 battle that, in six weeks, changed the course of history.

A veteran of the French Army, Ted Morgan has made use of exclusive firsthand reports to create the most complete and dramatic telling of the conflict ever written. Here is the history of the Vietminh liberation movement’s rebellion against French occupation after World War II and its growth as an adversary, eventually backed by Communist China. Here too is the ill-fated French plan to build a base in Dien Bien Phu and draw the Vietminh into a debilitating defeat—which instead led to the Europeans being encircled in the surrounding hills, besieged by heavy artillery, overrun, and defeated.

Making expert use of recently unearthed or released information, Morgan reveals the inner workings of the American effort to aid France, with Eisenhower secretly disdainful of the French effort and prophetically worried that “no military victory was possible in that type of theater.” Morgan paints indelible portraits of all the major players, from Henri Navarre, head of the French Union forces, a rigid professional unprepared for an enemy fortified by rice carried on bicycles, to his commander, General Christian de Castries, a privileged, miscast cavalry officer, and General Vo Nguyen Giap, a master of guerrilla warfare working out of a one-room hut on the side of a hill. Most devastatingly, Morgan sets the stage for the Vietnam quagmire that was to come.

Superbly researched and powerfully written, Valley of Death is the crowning achievement of an author whose work has always been as compulsively readable as it is important."

It will be interesting to see if Ted Morgan's new account of this pivotal battle in Vietnam is equal to or better than "The Last Valley" by Martin Windrow or Bernard B. Fall's masterful accounts. I believe that "The Last Valley" has been one of the best military accounts I have read for some time, does anyone else have a similar opinion?

by Martin Windrow
Some reviews:

“This is an epic book about an epic battle. It is not often that the story of a struggle as dramatic as Dien Bien Phu is told with a flair that matches the courage of the adversaries and the sheer scale of the event. Martin Windrow's book is nothing less than a landmark in military history.” - Professor Richard Holmes

“This is an outstanding work of military history. It tells the story of the ghastly French experience in Indo-China in a way that has never been done before in English. The account of Dien Bien Phu is a masterpiece of meticulous historical narrative” - Max Hastings

I am currently reading "Valley of Death: The Tragedy at Dien Bien Phu That Led America into the Vietnam War" by Ted Morgan. On page 75 the author offers this description of the French admiral Thierry d'Argenlieu; "In the thirties d'Argenlieu had left the navy to enter a Carmelite monastery, where he was known as Father Louis de la Trinite. Politically, he was on the right, and sided with the Action Francaise for the return of the monarchy. When de Gaulle left for London in 1940, d'Argenlieu was one of the few naval officers to join him, for he hated the Germans worse than the British. Short in stature but long on arrogance, he was said to have 'one of the finest 12th century minds'. His one lasting achievement was to propose the cross of Lorraine as the emblem of the Free French."

by Ted Morgan

Aussie Rick: would you recommend:

by David Halberstam

Bryan wrote: "Aussie Rick: would you recommend:

by David Halberstam"

Hi Bryan, I know of this book as it has been mentioned in a few books that I have read on the US involvement in the Vietnam War but I must confess that I haven't read it yet.

Me too. It must be one of those famous books in the genre that takes a little while to get around to reading it. I like the author.

I'd like to thank Andre for mentioning this book in another thread. I thought I'd move it over here, because it looks really good. I added it to my read list.

by Karl Marlantes

Thank you very much Bryan for taking the initiative and getting the post in the right thread.

Bentley

Bryan, yes, it's a great book - though fiction.
SInce the author fought in the war himself he really knows what he is talking about - apart from that he is a great writer.

Another one: by Tim O'Brien

Hi Andre, I have read Tim O'Brien's book "If I Die in a Combat Zone" many years ago and really enjoyed it.

by Tim O'Brien

by Larry Burrows

Rick, Bryan, Bentley, and anybody else interested in the subject: no words can describe the faces and images in this magnificent book by photographer Larry Burrows who is believed to have died in a helicopter crash in Vietnam in 1971.
Mr. Burrows was a tremendously gifted photographer. His sense for composure and his gift to handle his subjects with respect are unique.
Includes 150 large format photographs with 100 in color, and a foreword by Mr. Burrows' friend, the writer David Halberstam

Thank you Andre for the add...I will have to look for this. It is sad about the photographer.

Thanks, Andre, very interesting and tragic.

America in Vietnam: The War That Couldn't Be Wonby; Herbert Schandler

about half way through, author is making a good case that the US never understood that the cost of the war to North Vietnam was quite bearable both in people and economic terms. While they did not want to fight the US, they would if needed as they did intend to unite Vietnam. The political corruption in S Vietnam aided their cause as did the unity achieved in the North due to the US bombing campaign.

Hello Patricrk...first the housekeeping stuff - always fun...

First make sure to add the book cover, then the author's photo if available and always the author's link.

So your book would look like the following:

[image error] Herbert Schandler

There was a cover, there was no photo, and the third thing we do is add the author's link.

OK...housekeeping done.

All good points Patricrk...a very misunderstood war from start to finish - and one where the US did not understand I am afraid the motivations of the North Vietnamese. Also, our poor soldiers had their hands tied in the type of warfare they could conduct. A sad chapter in our military history for everyone involved.

It sounds like a good book Patricrk.

Patricrk:

Interesting, I think that is a solid argument about N.Vietnam willing to take huge hits. thanks so much.

Don't forget to add the cover image when it is available:
[image error]

Just let us know if you need any help in that arena.

Great minds think alike Bryan...thank you for your help on this.

The one book that really dragged my interest into the Vietnam War has to be Bernard Fall's "Hell in a Very Small Place".

by Bernard B. Fall

Who else enjoyed this account?

What was the one book that you would recommend to read about the Vietnam War?

A.R.:

I have read this book. Teddy and Robert Kennedy sat down with him to get his view of the war. It helped shape their eventual anti-war stance.

The book that got me interested in this war is:
by Michael MacLear

Hi Bryan, I've read "The Ten Thousand Day War" as well and thought it was an excellent book. I think they may have done a TV documentary based on the book some many years back?

by Michael MacLear

It's true, it is a companion to the great series. Check it out if you can. Well worth the time!

Hi Bryan,

I remember watching it when it first came out and then saw the book later on and bought it. I should see if its available on DVD here in Australia.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "The one book that really dragged my interest into the Vietnam War has to be Bernard Fall's "Hell in a Very Small Place".

..."

Rick -- Good one. Fall is brilliant and essential, in my opinion. This title is on my home shelf next to "Vietnam Witness 1953-1966," which I like even more. I also recommend "The Vietnamese and Their Revolution," an edited compilation of writings by the French scholar Paul Mus (edited by John T. McAlister). I attempted to post covers but didn't find either one.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I received a copy of "Allies and Mates" today which is a personal account of an American officer who served with an Australian-New Zealand task force in Veitnam.

[bookcover:Allies and Mates: An ..."

I've been wanting to add info on Australia's involvement to my collection, so I am happy to find your titles on that subject.

Hi Melissa,

Even when referencing a book that was posted before, please do the entire add, because that is the only way the goodreads software populates the site.

by Bernard Fall

Regarding the other book I could not get it to come up but it is found on Amazon.; just not in goodreads.

Just remember to always add the book cover first and if it is not there to just say not found in goodreads and add the link instead which would be just the book name in text, then the author's photo if available and always the author's link.

Here is the Mechanics thread which gives excruciating details of how to do the above:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Also, Aussie Rick is away for the weekend in an area with no internet access but you will hear from him by Monday I am sure.

Bentley wrote: "Hi Melissa,

Even when referencing a book that was posted before, please do the entire add, because that is the only way the goodreads software populates the site.

[bookcover:Hell In A Very Small ..."

Bentley -- You are amazing. Your icon should be Yoda. Thanks very much for the info. I hope to eventually figure things out. :)

You are making me laugh Melissa; also wanted to make sure you realized that Aussie Rick was out of pocket for the weekend but he will get back to you for sure.

You will get the hang of things...just keep trying.

Hi Melissa, just back from the coast so I'm sorry I missed your posts. I have only found one book (in my humble opinion) that comes close to Fall's "Hell in a Very Small Place" which was "The Last Valley" by Martin Windrow.

by Bernard B. Fall

by Martin Windrow

I can recommend one very good book that covers in detail Australia's involvement in Vietnam by Paul Ham. I will check out your recommendations above and see if I can find some copies locally, thanks for the post.

by Paul Ham

And here he is.

Hi Bentley, thanks for taking care of this thread while I was away, just got back 30 minutes ago and trying to catch up :)

Well that is terrific...what time is it in Australia...it must Sunday right between 10:28 AM and 1:28 PM depending upon where you are.

Hi Bentley, its now 1.45pm on Sunday over here in sunny Australia :)

So you are by Canberra

Hi here are some of the books I have read on the Vietnam war and enjoyed:

Robert
Mason

Philip
Caputo

Christian G. Appy

by Paul Ham

Also the next book I have ready to read is

Hugh L. Mills Jr. with Robert A. Anderson

Hi Michael,

Some very good recommendations up there, well chosen.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Melissa, just back from the coast so I'm sorry I missed your posts. I have only found one book (in my humble opinion) that comes close to Fall's "Hell in a Very Small Place" which was "The Last ..."

Hi Rick -- I've added Ham to my to-reads and look forward to it. Thanks! I hope to get around to setting up a Vietnam (the war and the country) bookshelf on my profile page.

Paul Ham

Please add author and/or book whenever mentioning either.

Thanks

At some point in the thread Aussie Rick asked for "the one book you'd recommend on the Vietnam War." Not sure I can narrow it down to that, but the following are recommendations of one book in each of a few categories.

Background/history of Vietnam by a Vietnamese writer:

Overturned Chariot: The Autobiography of Phan-Boi-Chau

Events of 1945:
Vietnam 1945: The Quest for Power

Background/history of American diplomacy:
The Lost Revolution: The U.S. In Vietnam, 1946-1966

The American political/military dynamics:
Masters of War: Military Dissent and Politics in the Vietnam Era

The American air war:
The Limits of Air Power: The American Bombing of North Vietnam

American intelligence:
Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers

Background/dynamics of North Vietnam and Viet Cong:
A Vietcong Memoir: An Inside Account of the Vietnam War and Its Aftermath

Not to be a bother, but per Bentley's instructions on giving entire links (book covers included), here's a repeat of a post, this time with (I think) the book covers included (I'm still getting the hang of posting . . .)

4033471 At some point in the thread Aussie Rick asked for "the one book you'd recommend on the Vietnam War." Not sure I can narrow it down to that, but the following are recommendations of one book in each of a few categories.

Background/history of Vietnam by a Vietnamese writer:


Events of 1945:


Background/history of American diplomacy:


The American political/military dynamics:


The American air war:


American intelligence:


Background/dynamics of North Vietnam and Viet Cong:

Melissa, here is the Mechanics of the Board thread which spell out in excruciating detail how to follow the guidelines for posting books and doing citations. There is also a shorter explanation there as well.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

First you must have the book cover (you do - terrific and you were good to add the book titles but these are not necessary, you must after the book cover, add the author's photo if available and then the author's link (the author's name in text)

Look at my last example post 35.