Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Metamorphoses — Week 3

Book 4 includes: The Daughters of Minyas, Pyramus & Thisbe; The Story of Mars, Venus, and Vulcan; Leucothoe & Clytie, Salmacis & Hermaphroditus; The End of the Daughters of Minyas, Athamas & Ino, The End of Cadmus & Harmonia; Acrisius, Perseus & Atlas, Perseus & Andromeda, Perseus & Medusa

Book 5 includes: The Fighting of Perseus; Minerva visits the Muses, including the Story of Ceres and Proserpina.

As the stories of metamorphoses continue, I’ll throw out a couple opening questions for your consideration. Please feel free to throw your own questions out for discussion, too.

—This week’s reading includes some famous stories like Pyramus & Thisbe, Perseus & Andromeda, and Ceres and Proserpina as well as lesser known stories. Which of the stories stood out for you, and why?

—Are there any lessons for the readers in these stories, or are they just entertainment?

Maybe one lesson is don’t pick a fight with the man carrying Medusa’s head…

Susan wrote: "Maybe one lesson is don’t pick a fight with the man carrying Medusa’s head…"

LOL!!

Book V had me shaking my head. The violence and gore of the Perseus and the suitors and the use of Medusa's head ; juxtaposed with the stories from the Muses was stark.

I had mentioned before my concern about translations that use alot of words or phrasing that just does not fit in my mind with what how an author would write. I want to read ancient literature and get the feel of the period of the writing. The section about the contest that led to the transformation into magpies of the daughters of Pierus.
We'll show you girls just what real class is
Give up trying to deceive the masses
Your rhymes are fake; accept our wager
...
Nothin's gonna save you 'cuz your songs are lame
And the way you sing 'em is really a shame
So stop with, "Well I Never!' and "This can't be real!"
We're the newest New Thing and here is our deal
If we beat you, obsolete you, then you just get gone
From these classy haunts on Mount Helicon
We give you Macedonia--if we lose
An' that's an offer you just can't refuse
So take the wings off, sisters, get down and jam
And let the nymphs be the judges of our poetry slam!
And it goes on in that vein. This might have worked for me if I was in my teens and reluctant to give Metamorphoses a whirl.

All in all I am enjoying stories it brings me back to the days when I was enthralled by Roman and Greek mythology.

Just to compare, here are two other translations of that section in Book V starting around line 300:

Translated by Allen Mandelbaum:

“O goddesses of Thespia, it’s time
you stop beguiling the untutored mob
with counterfeited songs; for you are frauds.
If you are confident, compete with us!
Neither your voice nor art can match our own,
and we can match your numbers. If you lose,
then yield to us the spring of Pegasus,
and Aganippe, too, your other fount;
and if you win, we will concede to you
the plains of all our broad Emathia
as far as our snow-clad Paeonia.
And let the nymphs be judges of this test!”

*****

Translated by Rolfe Humphries:

‘Quit fooling people,’
They said, ‘Quit fooling silly ignorant people
With your pretence of music! Hear our challenge!
We are as many as you are, and our voices,
Our skill at least as great. If you are beaten,
Give us Medusa’s spring, and Aganippe:
Or, if we lose, we will cede you all Emathia
From plains to snow-line; the nymphs shall be the judges.’

Susan wrote: "Maybe one lesson is don’t pick a fight with the man carrying Medusa’s head…"

😂😂😂

Chris wrote: "Book V had me shaking my head. The violence and gore of the Perseus and the suitors and the use of Medusa's head ; juxtaposed with the stories from the Muses was stark.

I had mentioned before my ..."

I hear what you are saying and I feel it, somewhat. Because I love the poetry of the Penguin translation, and I am especially loving listening to the audiobook along with reading along with my physical copy. (I have to say: for The Very Old Poetry, the combination of reading, and hearing it read, by someone who reads very well, is an exquisite pleasure.) But: (and of course the but was coming along) - I can imagine that a reading audience much younger than me (a woman of a certain age) would enjoy having any ancient work rendered into a voice that resonates with them - as we enjoy having the works rendered in a way that resonates with us. Or would find that voice a more inviting entry into the work.
I mentioned in my introduction of myself to the group that I had read several translations of Gilamesh over the last few years - and these ranged from the most strict scholarly translation to N. K. Sandars's prose translation that is most peoples' introduction to the poem to Jenny Lewis's retelling of the epic. Each was a completely different yet compelling experience. Ancient works were written in language that was current for their time. We can surmise in some cases if written language in the past was more formal than spoken language (my guess is it probably always was) but even if it was - the translator has to choose how to render the work into a present language that will work for a present audience while respecting the poem. Not an easy task. I get something out of every different translation no matter how much I like or dislike it because all give me some insight into the work. The book that most opened my eyes to this issue is Eliot Weinberger's "19 Ways of Looking at Wang Wei." A slim but captivating volume.
Sorry, I have digressed so much from the poem, but the issue of translation is interesting to me, even though I myself am absolutely unable to undertake it.

Zuska wrote: "I mentioned in my introduction of myself to the group that I had read several translations of Gilamesh over the last few years.."

Since you mentioned Gilgamesh, I highly recommend Gilgamesh: A New Translation of the Ancient Epic. Like you, I've read several translations, and this is by far my favorite.

Also, thank you for mentioning Nineteen Ways of Looking at Wang Wei: How a Chinese Poem is Translated. I've put it on my TBR. It looks very interesting.

Susan wrote: "Just to compare, here are two other translations of that section in Book V starting around line 300:

Translated by Allen Mandelbaum:

“O goddesses of Thespia, it’s time
you stop beguiling the u..."

I like those translations better.

Chris wrote: "I like those translations better."

I find myself being drawn closer to the original in the Soucy translation.

Given the passage we've chosen, it feels like in comparing translations we are reenacting a smaller version of the very contest of voice it describes; very meta.

“Spare artless crowds your hollow charms!” they cried.
“If you’re so self-assured, come vie with us,
O Thespian powers! Though matched in count, we’ll win (310)
In song and skill. If you should lose, you’ll yield
Medusa’s font and Aganippe of
Boeotia; or we’ll yield Emathia’s plains
Up to Paeonia’s snows. The nymphs shall judge!”
(Soucy, Book 5)

Soucy notes that his aim was to produce a translation that is “accurate, poetic, and open-minded,” keeping the line count equal to Ovid’s original and using the blank verse of English epic.

Reading Book 4, one question bothered me, and I can't find the answer. Maybe someone remembers, why Cadmus and his family were cursed in first place. There are many things happened as a result of this hey curse, which justified other curses in the family. But what was initial curse?

Alexey wrote: "Reading Book 4, one question bothered me, and I can't find the answer. Maybe someone remembers, why Cadmus and his family were cursed in first place. There are many things happened as a result of t..."

I’m not sure Ovid gives a specific reason for the curse. Cadmus is the son of king Agenor, and Jove turns into a bull and abducts his sister at the end of Book 2. Cadmus does kill a serpent sacred to Mars near the beginning of Book 3, and the grove where the serpent lives is called “ill omened”.

David wrote: "Chris wrote: "I like those translations better."

I find myself being drawn closer to the original in the Soucy translation.

Given the passage we've chosen, it feels like in comparing translation..."

The translations of this passage, different as they are, do seem to share a colloquial, conversational tone. Interesting to see the differences in approach.

Susan wrote: "Alexey wrote: "Reading Book 4, one question bothered me, and I can't find the answer. Maybe someone remembers, why Cadmus and his family were cursed in first place. There are many things happened a..."

Thank you, indeed the serpent was sacred. And he was sent to the place by the oracle, that the core of the Classical stories: gods make you do sacrilege and then punish you and all your descendants, until the last one dies in the most painful way.

On Cadmus, or Cadmos

Before founding the city, Cadmos had to serve Ares for a year (or a great year, equivalent to eight ordinary years) to atone for having killed the dragon. Ares’ anger at the killing of the dragon would presumably have been fully allayed by this means in the original legend, but the motif of his anger was too useful not to be reapplied in other connections, whether to account for Cadmos’ subsequent transformation into a snake, or the sending of the Sphinx, or the need for an act of self-sacrifice if Thebes was to be defended from the Seven.

Hard, Robin. The Routledge Handbook of Greek Mythology (p. 333). Taylor & Francis. Kindle Edition.

The Latin for the giant snake is serpens, not draco, but either can cover English Dragon. In this case dragon makes more sense, since snakes don't have rows of teeth. In some accounts Athena/Minerva gave half the teeth to Aeetes, king of Colchis, and they were planted by Jason during the quest of the Golden Fleece. In this account they do not spontaneously fight each other to the death. Jason throws a stone among them to provoke them. (In Ray Harryhausen's splendid film version, they are stop-motion living skeletons, and Jason and the Argonauts fight them: a memorable image imitated in a TV remake without textual warrant.)

The curse on the line of Cadmus is "over-determined," as Freud might have said. Cadmus' wife, Harmonia, is the daughter of the adulterous union of Mars and Venus, and Vulcan, the offended husband, gave her a cursed necklace as a wedding present, as told at length in the Latin "Thebiad" of Statius (post-Ovidian). It passes through various hands, causing trouble at each stage. (I have sometimes wondered if Tolkien had it in mind when he created a cursed necklace in The Silmarillion, the dwarf-wrought Nauglamir)

Being cursed through Harmonia is quite an irony.

Note spelling error above: should be Thebaid, not Thebiad. Makes a difference looking it up.

Book 4 with the daughters of Minyas taking turns to tell a story reminded me a lot of Giovanni Boccaccio's The Decameron with each character taking a turn to tell a story.

Zuska wrote: "Sorry, I have digressed so much from the poem, but the issue of translation is interesting to me, even though I myself am absolutely unable to undertake it."

It is indeed a great topic to discuss. For my graduation thesis I translated a poem by Aphra Behn into Portuguese and in order to do it I have to read a lot of theorists of the translation sciences and your comment points to a lot of issues that comes from the action of translating a poem (that is harder than translate prose).

I don't know if I knew and just forgot it, but I don't recall Pyramus and Thysbe story. It is very similar to Romeu and Juliet's.

Shakespeare seems to have noticed the similarity. A play-within-a-play of Pyramus and Thisbe features in “A Midsummer Night’s Dream,” to comic effect.

I'm not sure if I have read this play. If I have, I forgot it too.

This may jog your memory: It features a semi-classical Theseus and Hippolyta at one pole and a very Western European Oberon and Titania, king and queen of the fairies (or elves) at the other, with strangely English rustics and “mechanics” (craftsmen) caught between them. And a plenitude of confused lovers. All frequently accompanied by Mendelsohn’s music.

I kind of remember of Oberon, but maybe I remember it because of other media.

I'm still dealing with Book 4. There is a lot there. I plan to post some more comprehensive thoughts on the book as a whole in the next days. In the meantime, I thought I'd share two resources.

This podcast episode provides a great hour-long analysis of the Narcissus myth and how it is represented in art and popular culture, and how it applies to us today.
- https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...

And, as I've done for some of the other myths, I started collecting some Narcissus-related art. I picked up some of the references from the podcast.
- https://www.pinterest.com/mstatenstuf...

I thought I had mentioned this, but apparently not.

Around V.134-135, Perseus encounters an opponent from Bactria, which is roughly northern Afghanistan and adjacent territory. I can accept without too much strain characters from Western Asia showing up in Ethiopia, but Ovid really strains for the specific and exotic.

The specifying of origins seems Homeric, and may be Ovid showing that he can do traditional epic as well as anyone else. But the body count seems to rise in subsequent books as well, or at least that is my impression.