Reading the 20th Century discussion

I hope I am not replicating this thread, as I couldn't find one. If so, let me know and I will delete it.

We will be reading our last Celia Fremlin novel in August 25; King of the World . King of the World was published in 1994, a year after her previous novel, The Echoing Stones. Although Fremlin was to publish a volume of poetry, Duet in Verse, this was her last published novel before her death in 2009 at 95. Although she lived to a good age, writing King of the World when she was 80, she had witnessed much loss, including the suicide of one of her daughters. Sadly, The Hours Before Dawn was not republished until 2017, so she did not witness the rediscovery of her work, but I have loved the majority of books that I have read by her and she has become a firm favourite. As such, I am willing to accept her last couple of novels, written when she was elderly, are not quite of her younger level.

King of the World, her sixteenth and final novel, is the story of flat-mates Bridget and Diane. Despite ten years in age between them they get on well - aside from the constant presence of Alistair, Diane's self-impressed boyfriend, in the flat. The women decide to look for a third tenant, and find Norah, who claims to be a battered wife seeking refuge. But Norah is telling lies that will put all of them in mortal danger.

I look forward to discussing her last novel with other 20th Century readers next month.

Nope, this is the official discussion thread


Accept no substitutes

Whew! Thank you, Nigeyb.

Susan wrote: " I am willing to accept her last couple of novels, written when she was elderly, are not quite of her younger level. "

I was willing to accept that too but have been surprisingly pleased to find otherwise. Fremlin was born in June of 1914 and I observed that the last four of her novels were written in the 1990s following a gap of 8 years:

1982 – The Parasite Person
1990 – Listening in the Dusk
1991 – Dangerous Thoughts
1993 – The Echoing Stones
1994 – King of the World

When I read Listening in the Dusk I thought it a weak effort and definitely in the 3rd tier of the 3 Fremlin tier levels. I presumed the remaining 3 novels would also be weak efforts and was gobsmacked when I found Dangerous Thoughts to be top-tier Fremlin. With the penultimate novel The Echoing Stones being a solid mid-level Fremlin effort I have to say that my assessment of Fremlin's late period novels so far is that they have been a totally representative effort with no loss of quality. Three novels with one above average, one average and one below average. So I am open for what King of the World will bring, as that will be the determinative late-period work.

Brian, you are correct. I gave Dangerous Thoughts 5-stars - it was one of my favourites.

I will finish the Frayn I am reading before starting this, but I am looking forward to it.

Me too, Dangerous Thoughts was 4 stars for me, and had such an interesting plot. Sadly, Echoing Stones dropped off the cliff in my view: at just 2 stars, it must be my worst Fremlin.

So hoping King of the World is back to her best - the blurb reminds me a little of the one where the wife walks out of her marriage and takes a room in a boarding house (the attic room where a motorbike is stored and she turns it into a decorative feature!)

I have to read Villette for my IRL book group first: I haven't started it yet and we're meeting on Wednesday.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I have to read Villette for my IRL book group first: I haven't started it yet and we're meeting on Wednesday.."

Good luck! I don't envy your reading week, although Charlotte Bronte fans will. I remember Villette as being quite lengthy, and I felt every bit of its length.

Roman Clodia wrote: "So hoping King of the World is back to her best - the blurb reminds me a little of the one where the wife walks out of her marriage and takes a room in a boarding house (the attic room where a motorbike is stored and she turns it into a decorative feature!)."

That was Listening in the Dusk the first of the four 1990s Fremlins. My feeling that it was one of the inferior 3rd tier Fremlins is probably similar to what you felt about The Echoing Stones which I thought was a solid 'step" rather than a "'cliff fall' reduction in quality from Dangerous Thoughts. But yes, a 2 star Fremlin would surely rank as a "worst Fremlin."

I've started this and love the flatmates and the usual hapless boyfriend. But have to say the treatment of mental illness (view spoiler)[here schizophrenia (hide spoiler)] is making me a bit uncomfortable as it seems to reflect a 1990s attitude, as it would, which is less understanding than we would expect today.

But a creepy plot! And what is Diana thinking?!

Roman Clodia wrote: "I've started this and love the flatmates and the usual hapless boyfriend...."

I think I'll start the book this weekend too.
Doing a little self-analysis, I wonder if another reason I enjoy reading Fremlin so much is because she's good for my ego. I always feel like I'm a superior mate/husband to any of her hapless/feckless male creations. Yes, it's a low bar, but I'll still take it.

Excellent, I haven't got any further - but it's the hols now so plenty of reading time.

Haha, if I were a man, I think I'd be preening in comparison with the typical Fremlin man too. It's understandable in the books set in the 1950s-70s, but I'm shocked at this one in the 1990s.

I haven’t finished July but I’m ready for August. I’ll probably start this one next week.

On Fremlin's men, Mervyn has to take the biscuit as the worst. one. ever!

He must be pretty bad!

Nigeyb wrote: "He must be pretty bad!"

Completely reprehensible.

There's a more usual bad boyfriend as well who's a 1990's update on the feckless husband who gets treated with snarky humour.

I haven't met Mervyn yet, although he has been mentioned. It's a very odd set up so far - there are now 3 flat mates and Norah has told them her story. I am not quite believing what I have been told, knowing Fremlin.

I do think she always succeeds at making her settings real. You feel that you know these people - their jobs, their ways of sharing meals, of the ins and outs of their days. It's lightly, but cleverly done.

Susan wrote: "It's a very odd set up so far"

It is - deliciously odd and isn't that why we love Fremlin? There were various points where I wasn't quite convinced but I do like the update on women and their roles here with the two 'career women' in Bridget and Diane, contrasted with Norah. And I like the update on how the previous feckless husbands have been transformed into Diane's feckless boyfriend.

Looking forward to hearing what you make of Mervyn...

I finished and enjoyed it. I'll review it soon but thought it a solid effort by a 79-80 year old Fremlin. Good to see her end her writing career with a book that wasn't too weak.

The setting, characterization and the build up to the thriller event all worked for me. The denouement was fine but, keeping with Fremlin's tendency to not fully stick the landing, I was left wanting a better explanation of an aspect of the plot events.
As I don't feel like talking with spoilers right now, I will wait until Susan finishes to analyze Mervyn and Alistair.

I thought Fremlin's protagonist Bridget was an interesting choice since she was the only one of the three women without a male partner. So the part of the story's tension based on male oppression on Bridget was not due to her relationship to the men but due to her flatmate/friend's relations to the man. And I get the impression that neither female was really a "friend" of Bridget's. Bridget did not seem to really like even Diane that much and theirs was just a friendship of convenience.

You're right about Fremlin's endings in some of the books - more than once, I've turned the page and it's all over! This is one of them. Was she writing to a strict word limit? Or just couldn't be bothered to wrap things up?

Bridget is indeed an interesting character and drives home that we're no longer in the 1950s. Norah felt like a more typical Fremlin woman. I didn't understand Diane and her decision - she felt a bit underwritten.

I have finished now. Well, quite a good final novel. If I put aside the fact I work in the area of mental health and ignored all the outdated stuff, I really enjoyed it!

Did you think that attitude was typical, Susan? I expected a more enlightened approach in 1994.

I checked and Prozac Nation was published that year, A Beautiful Mind in 1998 (film 2001) so while there was less public awareness than now, it appears not as outdated as in the book.

The last few books of Fremlin seem to hover across time: we have the modern career girls in the flat then Mervyn who's like a 1950s throwback.

The whole murder plot seemed bonkers to me, and quite horrible.

And what about Diana plotting her pregnancy?

Roman Clodia wrote: "The whole murder plot seemed bonkers to me, and quite horrible."

Yes, the murder plot was bonkers because we didn't really get to see inside Mervyn to access how bonkers he was and what he was capable of. But I had no problem with either the level of Mervyn's psychosis or foreshadowing because:
- This is a murder mystery too so I am open to accepting more out-there psychotic behavior. Heck, I've learned to be so accepting of Ripley's behavior that I've often thought he'd make a great neighbor.
- I thought Fremlin did reveal sufficient hints about Mervyn's possibilities. We got to see Mervyn be so self-centered and worried about his professional reputation that he was only able to appreciate his wife in relation to how her behavior impacted him or reflected on him. Her own well-being was unimportant to him.
So, although many narcissistic psychopaths are often able to feel more concern, even a form of affection, for a blood progeny than for a spouse, it's not a stretch to see that not apply here or even to work the opposite way. A 'defective' progeny promises to be a life-long albatross on your reputation. Is your spouse embarrasses you, you can divorce her and society eventually releases you from any responsibility for their actions. But with a progeny, you can try to disown them, but society will always at least blame you for their defects, if not for the nurture element, at least for the nature element, as in this case.


Roman Clodia wrote: "And what about Diana plotting her pregnancy?..."

That was a great element and a factor that made Diana both an interesting character and an odd friend for Bridget. She was so oddly practical. Yes, Diana was a career woman, but as the clock was ticking, she, and she longed for a spouse and child, this is what she chose to do. That's because while she was practical, Diana also had a defective social radar that made her somewhat clueless about what others may be thinking or reacting to her words and behavior.

But in this case, Diana definitely made the right choice. If she asked Alistair to plan a child with her, he's have humored her for a few weeks while he determined an exit strategy, one that probably would have included a more forceful seductive attempt at Bridget. By choosing the method she did, Diana gets to have Alistair as a father and spouse, albeit a very part-time one. But I really think that not only will Diana be willing to accept that part-time, often-distant presence, but that it's best for all. I don't think anyone, even Diana, would be able to be happy dealing with Alistair full-time.

This is going to make me look stupid but I hadn't thought of Mervyn as a psychopath till reading this post - I just thought he was the worst father and husband ever! Is mental illness genetic? The poor son is schizophrenic, I think, and related to probably a very high IQ. But shooting your son because he's inconvenient... !

I also thought the Diana storyline was fascinating - I just couldn't understand why she'd want Alistair as her sperm donor! Also, unfair to deceive him in that way - I got all male rights over that! Definitely a fairytale ending to that plot point.

Brian E wrote: "Heck, I've learned to be so accepting of Ripley's behavior that I've often thought he'd make a great neighbor"

Oh gosh, me too! He's so charming, we could natter about books while sharing a bottle of wine from his infamous cellar. And if anyone annoyed me, I'd know exactly where to go 🥊😉

Roman Clodia wrote: "(Ripley)'s so charming, we could natter about books while sharing a bottle of wine from his infamous cellar. And if anyone annoyed me, I'd know exactly where to go 🥊😉..."

Exactly!!!
But I have to smile at my arrogant self-confidence in assuming that Ripley would never consider me to be the same type of annoying person to him as the persons that I'm counting on him to dispose of on my behalf.

Roman Clodia wrote: "This is going to make me look stupid but I hadn't thought of Mervyn as a psychopath till reading this post .."

You're not stupid. It's just that some of us Americans have become more adept at spotting "narcissistic psychopaths."

Re mental health, I think it was quite typical to have such attitudes at the time and I think we were meant to think that Christopher inherited his mental illness from his father.

It was very typical for girls to try to get pregnant, especially when I was at school in the Eighties. Once you could get a flat if you had a baby, half my year was pregnant by the time we left school I think.

I was quite glad Alastair turned out to be the hero and I liked the scene where he visited Bridget in hospital.

Wow, thanks Susan. I'm clearly doing Fremlin a disservice by questioning those attitudes.

Feeling quite dumb on missing the implication about inherited mental illness.

Alastair became quite normally irritating in contrast with Mervyn!

Well, you make a good point about her tricking Alastair into having a baby he hasn't planned for. Alastair was a bit of a star at the end there!

It certainly brought back memories of flat shares from university through my twenties, all the awkwardness of other people's boyfriends and forced proximity.

I've never flat shared but it sounds daunting!

Brian E wrote: "But I have to smile at my arrogant self-confidence in assuming that Ripley would never consider me to be the same type of annoying person to him as the persons that I'm counting on him to dispose of on my behalf"

Nooo! The bigger concern is that he'd spot your hidden potential and before you know it you'd be knee deep in one of his plots. I'd be safe as he has little interest in women as co-conspirators 😉

Which is a shame as in the fantasy inside my head I'd be a slick assassin, just as I'd be a leather-clad dragon rider!

And I still haven't read Ripley...

Susan wrote: "And I still haven't read Ripley..."

You're going to have to succumb at some point! Nigeyb and I vaguely talked about re-reading them all in 2027. The 'Ripliad' really is one of my favourite set of books, that would be a third reading for me.

Yes, I will. I've never really clicked with Patricia Highsmith, but then I've never tried her most famous character.

I'm a little bit in love with Tom Ripley! Feel I should whisper this ... 🤭

I am assuming she wrote an attractive psychopath then ;)

Haha, Mr RC is distinctly unflattered by my book boyfriends!

Good thing to consider though. Which fictional characters do we have soft spots for?

Definitely Poirot - I have adored him forever! Besides, like him, I am always cold, dislike drafts, hate the outdoors and would always rather get a cab than walk. We'd be very compatible.

Poirot would be a fantastic friend - I could imagine going round to his mansion flat after a hard day at work and a rainy commute and he'd have hot chocolate ready, the heating turned up and a delicious dinner delivered later while being interested in all my gossip.

Poirot is more high-maintenance and persnickety. I believe one has to accommodate him much more than vice-versa.
I would much prefer Ripley. He not only would be a more gracious host but he wouldn't bother with turning my enemies into the authorities.

I started reading the Poirots in order several years ago and my next will be #13 Murder in Mesopotamia. But first I will be finishing the Cadfael series I started in October of 2021, as I'm currently reading #20, Brother Cadfael's Penance. I am sorry to be finishing but have enjoyed them.

Cadfael would be a much better companion, neighbor and host than Poirot. I bet I would be stay in better health too! And maybe my soul could be saved too, something my friendship with Ripley would be unlikely to provide.

Ripley trumps Poirot for me too but I'll pass on Cadfael who would bore me to death! But I think Poirot is a very gracious host though I'd skip the home-grown marrows.

Salvo Montalbano is definitely top book boyfriend material - delicious food out on his patio with the sea in the background. And you, Brian, already know all about my soft spot for a younger Gally: we'd go on the toot in Soho then back to Blandings to recover, and niggle Lord Em.

Susan wrote: "Good thing to consider though. Which fictional characters do we have soft spots for?.."

As RC was referring to "book boyfriends" I switched my thinking from "good neighbors" to "book girlfriends." In my reading the past few days, I have quickly developed a soft spot for the main character of Caroline in D.E. Stevenson's Vittoria Cottage, a post WWII 40ish widow with three college-age children.
I will think more on the subject. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to truthfully answer my wife if she asks me what I'm thinking about. If I answered "Well, dear, I'm just trying to think of which women fictional characters would make the best girlfriend or spouse for me," I think it would surely go downhill starting with her asking "Why?"

Brian E wrote: "I switched my thinking from "good neighbors" to "book girlfriends"

Lizzy Bennett?
I'd be best friends with her and we'd roll our eyes about everyone.

Best female friend for me: do you know Mallory from the Carol O'Connell books? She's super cool and dangerous. Not good wife material admittedly.

I like this game!

Oh, yes to Lizzy Bennett as a Bestie.
Poirot can be high maintenance; it's allowed.

If we could enter a book as a real person, which bookish universe would you prefer?

I have an instant response to that one: I've always wanted to live in the world of Simone de Beavoir's The Mandarins: the war is finally over, there's a ferment of exciting new thinking and a positive sense of how Europe can move forward. The characters are writers, journalists and thinkers like Sartre, Camus, de Beauvoir herself so they discuss, debate and write during the day then go out at night to little cafes where they drink champagne before going dancing in basement jazz clubs and walk home through the streets of Paris in the early hours of the morning.

Thinking about this question has made me realize that I wouldn't want to live in the worlds of most of my favourite books by people like Jean Rhys or Sylvia Plath.

I'd have loved to have been part of the Bloomsbury group too - I'd share Duncan Grant with Vanessa (she wouldn't mind) and work at the Hogarth Press with Virginia and we'd have a good gossip over tea every day before going to a party in the evening.

You?

I missed your comment, sorry RC. Wonderful choices.

Goodness, do you know, I would love to go back to some of my childhood books. To be one of the Bastables or The Famous Five. Lots of adventures, but no real danger!

Who are the Bastables? Enid Blyton world would indeed be delightful - except as girls we'd be expected to make the tomato sandwiches and wash up afterwards while the boys do something fun!

Do you know the Faraway Tree books? I absolutely adored those when I was little! They were out of print so I only had a couple second hand - now that they're available again, I've binged them as an adult.

I read the Faraway Tree books to my own kids


The magic continues

Ha yes - the only thing reading as an adult is that I found the Saucepan Man a bit creepy!