Fantasy discussion

Let's talk about the most memorable villains in books or movies.
I must mention Groke from the Moomin books by Tove Jansson
I don't think she ever hurt anyone in those books, mostly she was just looming behind the door or freezing the ground, but most residents of Moominvalley were afraid of her.
In Russian translation, her name was Morra, and I must admit that for a while we had a cult of Morra at home. She was present in my kids' drawings, they would sculpture her shape out of blankets, and I'm certain we still have a handmaid toy Morra.
So, even if she's not deliberately evil, she remains most memorable for me.
What are yours?

A Groke/Morra handmade toy sounds very interesting, and I really like this thread.
For some reason, I often find myself rooting for the villains and secondary characters in books and movies. I have so many favorite villains that I have to divide them into two groups.
The first group includes villains that I like so much, I can't see them as true villains. To me, they're morally ambiguous characters, even though the authors intended them to be villains. The second group includes villains who are so repulsive that I want to punch them in the face, even though they're fictional. In the case of the second group, I don't admire the villains themselves, but rather the authors who made them seem so realistic.
So, the first group. First, there's Ghe from the Chosen of Changeling duology. He's an undead assassin who is in love with a pretty princess.
It sounds weird, but I like Ghe so much that, for years, I've periodically checked to see if the author had written a third book with Ghe returning. When I was in my early teens, I tried to write a sequel for my own amusement, and I sincerely hope now the author never finds out about my clumsy attempt.
Second is Ineluki from the Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn book series. He's officially the main villain of this story, like Sauron in LOTR, but unlike Sauron, his transformation into a villain is understandable and sympathetic from a psychological standpoint. Ineluki was a Sitha when he was still alive. This means he belonged to a race similar to elves. When humans besieged his father's castle, he transformed into an angry monster to protect his people from the invaders.
From the beginning, he was only a villain from the humans' point of view. The humans in the story were cruel barbarians and invaders, so Ineluki was actually a hero. As time went on, Ineluki began to lose his grip on reality. He turned against his own people, who did not appreciate his great sacrifice. He's a unique character in the history of the fantasy genre — a true hero who became a villain as his personality disintegrated.
My third favorite villain is Mordred from the Arthurian stories. I feel sorry for him because he gained his bad reputation through a series of mistakes. Early Welsh sources describe him as a very honorable and kind man, and the Mabinogion portrays his feud with Arthur as resulting from a misunderstanding.
But for some reason, Geoffrey of Monmouth portrayed him in his half-fictional History of the Kings of Britain as a lecherous traitor who first marries his uncle's wife and then tries to take his kingdom. Then, when Chrétien de Troyes created the love story between Guinevere and Lancelot to please his sentimental lady patrons, Mordred's reputation worsened further. Originally, Mordred was Guinevere's lover in the Arthurian stories and she had an affair with him while Arthur was away. This Lancelot was never mentioned in the early Arthurian legends.
So thanks to Chrétien de Troyes, Mordred became less than a lecher. In his stories, the poor guy is portrayed as a lecherous loser who tries to seduce Guinevere but fails because she prefers Lancelot.
In the 15th century, Sir Thomas Malory popularized the idea of Mordred as a coward and a traitor in Le Morte d'Arthur. This idea became part of the Arthurian canon for several centuries, completely turning Mordred into a villain, which seems pretty unfair to me. Oh, and as you might have guessed, I also can't stand Lancelot.
Now, on to the villains in the second group. First, there's Steerpike from the Gormenghast trilogy. His hunger for power, greed, and jealousy seem very realistic, and he is capable of inspiring real disgust in readers. So Steerpike is a masterfully crafted villain.
Secondly, there is Gyrodus from Chimeras of Estmer. He is very similar to Pasevalles from The Last King of Osten Ard tetralogy and Steerpike, whom I mentioned earlier, due to his many characters traits, such as being hungry for power, greedy, and having a Machiavellian mind. But he has one feature that makes him truly unique.
Despite his cruelty and greed, and the numerous crimes he has committed, Gyrodus genuinely sees himself as a great hero. Once he achieves power and wealth, he also sees himself as a wise statesman. Before committing another crime, he convinces himself that he must do so for the greater good or for the sake of his country. This seems psychologically authentic because it's how criminals and tyrants really think, and I really like this kind of authenticity.
Also, I really hate Bernard Loredo from The Witcher. The reasons are obvious—who wouldn't hate an ugly war criminal and rapist?

You all are more read than me, I am afraid. Other than Darth Vader, who took up most of my childhood, I am not sure I have a fav. I loved Aku from Samurai Jack but he was kind of half comic relief as much as villain.

I also liked Mojo-Jojo cause he took such a savage beating from the powerpuff girls for his many zany attempts of defeating them. But that was also cause the kids liked him.

From literature, I'm gonna have to go with Dracula. The absolute standard for what a Vampire can be, and a role model for so many other villians that have come after. Dracula in his many many redhibitions is a villian I cannot ignore.

After Dracula, I am going to move on to the many monsters of Cthulhu, I've spent more than a little amount of my time wondering how something could really drive people insane just to look on it. I still can't grasp it. Insanity on the instant seems unlikely to me. Insanity over time...



Why do you hate Lancelot? I think he is one of the greatest tragic heroes of all time. He's a model for a lot of my characters. And I am sure, many others beyond me.

P. Pherson wrote: "I also liked Mojo-Jojo cause he took such a savage beating from the powerpuff girls."
Such an underrated villain... Plus, he had a cape, and it was purple!

I went straight for the Evil Queen, I love how she embodies envy and vanity to be so cruel, it is simple but very effective. The version played by Lana Parrilla in Once Upon a Time was top notch for me.

Not from a book or a movie, but another that comes to mind is Arthas from Warcraft. I do love a conflicted hero turned villain, especially when you see the whole transitioning process.

Jabotikaba wrote: "A Groke/Morra handmade toy sounds very interesting"




Morra, battered bur alive :)

Jabotikaba wrote: "I have so many favorite villains that I have to divide them into two groups."
LOL. I like the first group more.
Villains with interesting life stories and ambitions other than just being evil.
In the 15th century, Sir Thomas Malory popularized the idea of Mordred as a coward and a traitor in Le Morte d'Arthur.
I read that book! But I was so young, 15 or less, and I don't remember much. Only that it was a really thick book, and there were repeated episodes with travelling ladies who, tired from the road, would sleep under the trees. Some traveling knights were taking advantage of the situation. And, surprisingly, ladies didn't wake up or thought they were dreaming.
I believe Lancelot wasn't one of those nasty knights :) When I hear Lancelot, I think of Richard Gere from First Night. So I have a positive impression, he was a good guy in that movie.

The White Witch from Narnia books and movies was a mean one. She seduced Edmond with Turkish delight, turned many creatures into statues, and killed Aslan!

P. Pherson wrote: "You all are more read than me, I am afraid. Other than Darth Vader, who took up most of my childhood, I am not sure I have a fav. I loved Aku from Samurai Jack but he was kind of half comic relief ..."
I remember the TV series Samurai Jack very well, of course, and Aku in particular. He is really more of a comical character, although some episodes seemed a little creepy to me.
Kristina wrote: "Jabotikaba wrote: "I have so many favorite villains that I have to divide them into two groups."
LOL. I like the first group more.
Villains with interesting life stories and ambitions other than ju..."

Kristina wrote: "Morra, battered bur alive :)"

Your Groke/Morra is really pretty! This toy looks like a cute penguin.
P. Pherson wrote: " Why do you hate Lancelot? I think he is one of the greatest tragic heroes of all time. He's a model for a lot of my characters. And I am sure, many others beyond me..."
Kristina wrote: "I believe Lancelot wasn't one of those nasty knights :) When I hear Lancelot, I think of Richard Gere from First Night. So I have a positive impression, he was a good guy in that movie...."
It seems I shocked at least two people with my strange comment about not liking Lancelot.
Now, I'll try to explain my point. The problem is that Sir Lancelot was not originally part of Arthurian mythology. Arthur, Mordred, and possibly Guinevere and Merlin may have been based on real people from old times. Later, many great legends were composed about them, and over the centuries, various authors organized these legends into numerous works.
But Lancelot was most likely not based on any historical figure and was originally absent from the legends of King Arthur and the books based on them. He first appeared in these stories in the twelfth century, when Chrétien de Troyes wrote a chivalric romance commissioned by a French queen and called "Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart." In this novel, Lancelot is described as a great knight and Guinevere's lover for the first time. The preceding legends and books make no mention of an Arthurian knight named Lancelot (or anything similar), so it is highly likely that Chrétien de Troyes invented the story of Lancelot and Guinevere's romance to please his royal patroness.
This story became very popular and greatly influenced subsequent Arthurian mythology, including Le Morte d'Arthur. Now, most people are familiar with the story of Guinevere and Lancelot, although Mordred was originally her lover in the Arthurian legends. However, thanks to Chrétien de Troyes, Mordred was replaced by Lancelot. As a result, Mordred has become not only a traitor and a rebel but also a pathetic loser who unsuccessfully harasses Guinevere. So I feel a little bad for poor Mordred.
In stories preceding Le Morte d'Arthur, he is more of a victim of circumstance than a villain. In The Alliterative Morte Arthure, for example, he is revealed to be a better ruler than Arthur, and Guinevere loves him so much that she steals one of Arthur's swords, Clarent, and gives it to him. However, Le Morte d'Arthur, written under the influence of The Knight of the Cart, turned out to be much more popular than those pro-Mordred stories.
So it's not that Lancelot is such a bad guy, it's just that he's taken Mordred's place in the King Arthur stories, which annoys me a bit.

Ah...I see...I feel Lancelot has made the bill as being a Legitimate Arthurian Knight. I can see where a more purist view could hold that there is a historical record, and Lancelot has no past living person to point to, but he adds so much more to the story that the story feels incomplete to me without him. To be the best knight of the court and to be filled with desire for what he cannot have. His honor to do his duty, and his demon to fight against his want. He is a tragic characters and also the one the King wants most at his side. I relate to him. I know what its like to want someone you cannot have, and how that weights on you every day.

Mordred is not weak because he cannot have Guinevere. Its enough that he wants his birthright and Arthur wont give it to him.

Anyway....Your comments have made me think of another, and that is Admiral Thrawn, from the Star Wars: Dark Force Rising

Thrawn is a great villain, who is always ahead of the usual cast, out thinking them at almost every measure. My only regret with this book is that I thought he should have won, but by pure dumb luck does not. Thrawn is way better at the game of war than his opponents and it shows in many places.

Sadly, I am not sure his fate is Disney Star Wars. We was discarded with most everything else that kept it alive over the years. Pity.

Of course, due to cultural tradition, Lancelot has long been considered a Legitimate Arthurian Knight (I really liked that term), and it's not that I'm a big purist. It's just that I read the books in Mary Stewart's Arthurian cycle first, and then I read the History of the Britons by Geoffrey of Monmouth and many other books. The more I read, the more interested I became in how these stories came about, and realized that poor Mordred had been the victim of many lies.
Initially, I liked Merlin (he's the main protagonist in Mary Stewart's trilogy), and I looked for references to him in old books. However, I became interested in Mordred because of the incredible transmutations this character has undergone over the centuries.
Of course, I can see why the story of the completely fictionalized Lancelot became so popular. Initially, Chrétien de Troyes simply wrote sort of Arthurian fan fiction because his patroness lacked the romance of the early Arthurian legends. However, subsequent authors turned this weak tale into a conflict between personal desire and duty. It's no surprise, then, that the story gradually became more complex and popular, and Sir Thomas Malory included it in Le Morte d'Arthur.
I think I heard a thing or two about Thrawn from an acquaintance of mine. I understand he's a character from the Star Wars universe, but I'm definitely not a fan, so I didn't pay much attention to her words. If I recall correctly, he seems to belong to some kind of blue-skinned alien race.

Thawn was indeed blue of skin. He is a great example of a villian done well. An example of someone playing chess when other are playing checkers. The problem with him was, he was so far ahead of the heroes that they essentially only had dumb luck to save them, and so...dumb luck shows up a bit too often. At the end, IMO, Thrawn should have won, and defeated the new order of Princess Leia.

But he is expanded universe, and Disney quashed that.

Exactly! Type one villains are often very smart. That's probably why I like them so much.
Sorry for mentioning Chimeras again, but there's another character who's hard to categorize as either a type one villain or a morally gray character. His name is Kemlilin, and he's a pirate, which is generally not an occupation for a good guy. But he's really smart, and I like him a lot.