You'll love this one...!! A book club & more discussion

Katrisa and are going to read The Stone Angel for the August themed read. All are welcome to join in.

Do you have a preference as to when you want to start?

I can start whenever. Just let me know when is good

We could probably start the beginning of August. I'm starting a new book right away, but I should be finished by the 1st.

Sounds good! I'll plan on starting beginning of August.

Katrisa, I likely won't be starting for a couple of days. I have something like 3-1/2 hours in my current read. It's a library loan and setting it temporarily aside isn't going to be an option. Fingers crossed I can start on Sunday.

ok sounds good! I am only through ch2 so I'll pause for a sec. I am enjoying the writing so far.

This is the edition my mother had and the one I read--no, not when this was printed since that was in 1968! One of the things that really hit me, since I read it as a young teen (and I'm quite sure it was this book, so correct me if I'm wrong because I read more than one book by her back then and it could have been a different book by her; my mother read a lot of literary fiction, including Canadian authors, naturally) was (view spoiler)[her either not enjoying sex or not being allowed to enjoy it because it wasn't proper. (hide spoiler)]

I do remember other things about the book, but it's been a long time since I gave it 3 stars now--it would have been higher for me back then, of course.

I borrowed the book from the libary when I read first read it. Then I bought the hardcover to keep in my library because I liked it so much. This time, I'm going to read the audiobook and I'll start tomorrow since I finished the book I was currently reading.

I read chapter 1 today.

Like I've mentioned, I don't remember the book at all. I didn't realize that Hagar was in her 90's. I wish I did remember more of it so I could compare my POV now than back in the 90's when I was younger.

(view spoiler)[I picked up on the comments on arthritis, and it causing a fall. One of the first things that is asked in orthopedic assessments is if you have fallen because of your arthritis.

I've said to my son that I don't have patience these days for many things and his response is that many seniors lose that filter and don't hold back. It's not that they (we) are cranky, it's that we don't put up with nonsense. He says I'm reaching that threshold. Hagar is beyond that threshold . She doesn't have much use for her daughter-in-law. Since she's narrating this story, I'm seeing Doris through Hagar's eyes. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "I read chapter 1 today.

Like I've mentioned, I don't remember the book at all. I didn't realize that Hagar was in her 90's. I wish I did remember more of it so I could compare my POV now than back..."

It's true about our filter going down, and I think it happens over a period of time. Is your son a doctor?

No. We have a good relationship and it came up in a conversation. It was just his observation.

Janice wrote: "No. We have a good relationship and it came up in a conversation. It was just his observation."

Okay. It's a good observation--he sounds very bright.

I read to the end of Chapter 3. These are long chapters.

(view spoiler)[ I certainly read this with a different POV from the last. Hagar is fiercely independent, and stubborn (which she comes by honestly). She's not had an easy life and has never felt truly accepted for who she was as a person. Now, she's losing her independence, and it's terrifying to her.

I'm certain the last time I read the book, I focused only on that and not how difficult it is trying to care for an aging parent.

Moving into assisted living at a senior's lodge is a dreaded reality for many seniors and you often hear people say that they had a terrible fight to get their parent into a home.

I recall my grandmother being incensed about going to a home, and my dad saying when it comes his time, he would go willingly. He did go willingly, but there were tears. It's hard to see your 90 year old dad cry because "his life had come to this".

So yes, my POV has changed, but I'm still on Hagar's side because I carry that fierce independent characteristic. (hide spoiler)]

Karin wrote: "Janice wrote: "No. We have a good relationship and it came up in a conversation. It was just his observation."

Okay. It's a good observation--he sounds very bright."

He's 49 years old, so I think he's beyond the bright stage.

I just finished ch 5.

(view spoiler)[Yes I can see how your POV has changed. I am at the stage of life where the parents are still independent, but more health concerns are looming (both my and Kevin's parents are in their mid to late seventies). It is hard to read those interactions between Hagar and her son/daughter-in-law because you can see both sides. Hagar does not want to lose her independence and her son isn't trying to be cruel - they just aren't equipped for the level of care that Hagar needs. I understand the anger that Hagar feels when it is pointed out to her that she has forgotten things. I imagine it is terrifying to have your brain betray you like that. I wish there were more places for our elders to live out their end of life in dignity that don't cost their life savings. (hide spoiler)]

I'll have to read your spoilers when I finish chapter 5. I had a busy day today and didn't manage to read at all.

Janice wrote: "Karin wrote: "Janice wrote: "No. We have a good relationship and it came up in a conversation. It was just his observation."

Okay. It's a good observation--he sounds very bright."

He's 49 years o..."

You can be bright at 49 :) In philosophy, people peak after 50 most of the time. In any event, he's observant.

That he is.

I finished to the end of Chapter 5.

(view spoiler)[I'm not as enthralled with the book as much as I was in the 90's, but I'm still impressed with Margaret Laurence's writing and story telling.

I feel bad for Hagar. She had a very difficult and unhappy life. Raised by a strict father who didn't afford her the nurturing a mother surely would have. She married a ne'er do well and balked at his improprieties.

So far, she hasn't discussed how her son John died, but I think that's going to be important.

Now, at 90 years old, frail and possibly sick, she's fearful of being abandoned in a nursing home. She's feeling it as a betrayal by her son. I don't know how much dementia she has at this point, but there is some there definitely. She doesn't like her daughter-in-law. We see Doris through Hagar's eyes as being overly solicitous. I would bristle at that myself. You have to wonder if she's a reliable narrator. Maybe she's leading us down the garden path with her assessment of Doris.

She's not a likeable person, but she has some depth. It will be interesting to see if her reminiscing during her flight will have any self reflection and provide her with any insight as to how her life came to this point. (hide spoiler)]

Katrisa wrote: "I just finished ch 5.

[spoilers removed]"

I agree. (view spoiler)[We have a couple of levels of care here in Canada but they all are where seniors end up in communal living. Lodge level is like living in an apartment but meals, laundry, etc are all provided. Then there's assisted care - which includes various levels of care depending on need. That may include bathing and personal care, medication monitoring, The last tier is long term care where there is a high level of care where people are not able to function. This is where your Alzheimer's patients go.

There is a fear of losing independence that drives people to this fight or flight response that is demonstrated so clearly with Hagar's literal flight. I don't know if attitudes are changing and people are becoming more open to living in a communal setting. Or if there is still that prevailing sentiment that is the most horrendous eventuality. Dad often would say that people would go into the lodge and you'd never see them again.

When we visited the lodge before we moved Dad in, I trotted off on my own and asked a number of residents how they felt. The first comment out of all of them was, "The food is really good." I guess that's important. LOL!

I'm not sure if Hagar's son & daughter-in-law handled that very well. The medical staff (when she was getting the barium swallow) certainly didn't. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "I finished to the end of Chapter 5.
"

(view spoiler)[Yes I agree that the writing is good and engaging. No one is handling this difficult life situation very well. Hagar is quite contrary but her son and DIL are not handling it very well either. I understand how frustrating it must be to want your independence and embarrassment as you begin to not be able to do things like go to the bathroom at night. It was not cool though how they tricked her into going to the old folks home. I hope I am able to have honest discussions when I get to that stage of life. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "Katrisa wrote: "I just finished ch 5.
."

Yes(view spoiler)[That doctor was so condescending! (hide spoiler)]

well I just realized that I was wrong about my chapters! I have the audio and the listed chapters are different. So actually I just finished ch 5 today.
(view spoiler)[It is funny how on edge I was for Hagar when she leaves the house! I really respect her fortitude - in leaving Bran and leaving her house as an old lady. I love when she asks the girl at the station to help her find the ticket booth and she muses about how the young don't realize that old age will come for them someday too. It is funny how true that is. I can't imagine how scared her son will be when they find she is gone. (hide spoiler)]

Katrisa wrote: "well I just realized that I was wrong about my chapters! I have the audio and the listed chapters are different. So actually I just finished ch 5 today.
[spoilers removed]"

Yes, your last two sentences are spot on, but I agree with other things you said as well.

Katrisa wrote: "Janice wrote: "Katrisa wrote: "I just finished ch 5.
."

Yes[spoilers removed]"

And that still happens sometimes today!

I finished to the end of Chapter 7.

(view spoiler)[Hagar's memory of the past is crystal clear but of recent events, she's a little hazy. That often seems to be the case, it seems.

I enjoy how Laurence tacks on things like "don't you know", and they sound like how you imagine people of Hagar's generation would speak. She peppers everyone's speech with "eh" quite liberally. Very Canadian. LOL! I'm not overly fond of the narrator and they don't roll off her tongue naturally. At least I don't think they do.

After my sister lived in the States for a few years, she commented about how much I end my sentences with "eh". I wasn't even aware that I did.

I hear Hagar's father's voice coming from her. We go on as we learn. He was a very stern, harsh, prideful man and she echoes all that. It's easy to see that her mannerisms caused rifts between her and her sons. They were also affected by the exact opposite manner of their father. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "I finished to the end of Chapter 7.

Hagar's memory of the past is crystal clear but of recent events, she's a little hazy. That often seems to be the case, it seems.

I enjoy how Laurence tacks on..."

When I lived in Canada I was unaware of using "eh" as well, although a Swiss roomate and I (four of us shared a house one year and went to more than one university--long story) and had fun adding together this sort of thing from five countries, so ended up with "eh, huh, nicht, nah, mate" as one word. Yes, we were mature ;)

I rarely say it after living in the States for 30 odd years, but do once in a while. It comes back in full force every time I go back to Canada to visit family along with my Canadian accent.

Janice wrote: "I finished to the end of Chapter 7.
.."

I am also just finished with ch 7 (for real this time :) )
(view spoiler)[I am liking this more as it goes on. I like a good character study. At first I found Hagar to be a bit too unlikeable, but I do appreciate that she is a product of her environment and circumstances. I like the way that the book goes in and out of the past. I feel so bad for her stuck out at that house - when she tried to give food to the children and then fell.
I asked ChatGPT what the years were for Hagar's life, because this book kind of reminds me of a Canadian O Pioneers! with the strong and stubborn heroines. I got into a bit of a chat with the AI about what a tea would be like with Alexandra from O Pioneers and Hagar. What a world we are living in where I can have a jovial chat about literature with a computer! (hide spoiler)]

Karin, when replying to a message, Goodreads will often expand the spoiler and quote it especially if there is quite a bit of text included in the spoiler. We recommend that people edit the quoted bits and remove any part of the quotes that include the spoiler. I don't think that particular spoiler gave anything away, but it's still good to be aware of Goodread's blunders for future.

LOL! Katrisa. Speaking of tea... I'm using ChatGPT to catalogue my demitasse collection and I'm learning a lot. One tea cup and saucer was purchased at a garage sale about 30 years back for $0.25. It's was actually worth over $25.00 at that time according to an antique book I had. The cup was made in Holland and the saucer was made in Bavaria. It would have been manufactured between 1950 & 1970. ChatGPT said it wasn't unusual for glassware to be manufactured like that. Cups in one country and saucers in another and still be in a matched set.

I also discovered I have a genuine hand blown glass basket. When I uploaded the pictures, it could detect all the visible traits that identify it as genuine. I uploaded a picture of a similar basket I found on EBay only strawberry design and not green. The style was identical and likely made by the same studio I learned. The strawberry piece was selling on EBay for $220. I got mine as a vase in a flower arrangement and have since been using it as a pen holder. Expensive pen holder.

I've just started cataloguing. I wonder what other gems I have.

Sorry, I know this is way off topic.

That is so cool Janice!

but also really weird that matched sets were made in different places!?

Katrisa wrote: "but also really weird that matched sets were made in different places!?"

The stamp on the bottom is identical except that one is a division of the other. I'd never heard this before, so it was very interesting to me.

Very interesting! Who knew?

I have 2 hours left in the book. I could possibly finish it today if I don't get side tracked with other projects. I'm eager to learn how it turns out. (view spoiler)[ I want to think some more about the symbolism of the stone angel that was in the cemetery and how she & John found it laying face down, they righted it. It had been vandalized with lipstick on the lips. Any time I see fashion shows (Alexander McQueen for instance) where I see models walking the runway with masks that cover their mouth, I think of it as degrading. as silencing women. I'm not sure if the lipstick has to do with sexual degradation - as in "let's paint this baby up because she's a whore". First, the angel already was blinded, and now painted up. I'm going to sit with this a bit. Right now my thoughts are a bit hard to articulate. Obviously, the angel is significant to what Margaret Laurence is saying in this novel since it is the title. (hide spoiler)]

I'm beginning to see why this appealed to me so strongly when I first read it. (view spoiler)[This isn't a light fluffy story. Margaret Laurence has a theme she wants to explore. She uses the angel as a metaphor . It's blind and doesn't see the world and is isolated. It's been painted up as a metaphor for sexual degradation. She then creates an example (Hagar in this case) to flesh out her viewpoint.

This is what intrigues me about her writing. It's not about whether Hagar is a likeable or unlikable character. It's about feeling uncomfortable in what Laurence is pointing fingers at. (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "Karin, when replying to a message, Goodreads will often expand the spoiler and quote it especially if there is quite a bit of text included in the spoiler. We recommend that people edit the quoted ..."

Darn, I forgot about that!

Janice wrote: "I'm beginning to see why this appealed to me so strongly when I first read it. ..."

(view spoiler)[I didn't think about the blind aspect of the angel. You make an interesting point. I thought of the angel kind of like the coldness and indifference of the celestial to our plight and the painting of it with make up kind of how we try to dress up faith but in the end it is still cold stone. (hide spoiler)]

I just finished ch 8
(view spoiler)[I thought there were some great lines in her conversation with the insurance guy. Now we learned what happened to John. Hagar's stoic pride is kind of heartbreaking. In her whole life she just swallows her sorrows and keeps just putting one foot in front of the other. (hide spoiler)]

Well, I finished. I wanted to finish today as it is the last day of my summer break. I go back to work for our teacher prep week tomorrow and then I'll have students the following Monday. My first thoughts on ending this book are that now I have new issues surrounding aging that I will have to work on, lol! (view spoiler)[This book was kind of my nightmare of aging! I know Hagar was never a very contented woman, but man she just could never be happy there at the end! You would think she would do something to find a modicum of peace and then she would either forget it, or just be angry. That scene right at the end where she wants the water, but doesn't want them to hold the glass even though she can't really do it herself and then just dies (I assume) really sums up her situation through the whole book. Man I super hope that my aged years aren't like that! Holy crickey! (hide spoiler)]
This is definitely a book that sticks with you even though pretty much the whole thing is uncomfortable. I don't need my books to always be pleasant though. Overall I give this one 4 stars

I also finished it today, and will fit in a lighter fluffy read between now and the toppler.

(view spoiler)[ There was a couple of other connections to the stone angel. One when John died and her heart turned to stone. The other was when we was remembering the last trip to the cemetery and thinging that one day the angel would just teeter and fall over and no one would lift it, just like she herself would just "teeter and fall over".

I enjoyed the laugh she got with the girl she share with Sandra Wong. I think it may have been one of the few times she let her guard down long enough to enjoy a silly moment. (I'm just as bad as Hagar. I couldn't remember Sandra's first name, just her last name, till I pulled my thinking cap down a bit more.

I think Doris was a lot like Hagar, and is likely why Hagar disliked her so much. She objected to Tina's husband in "Hagar style".

Boy, long gone are the days when you can smoke in your hospital bed.

I would rate this about 4.5 stars this time, but I'll bump it up to 5. (hide spoiler)]

Katrisa wrote: "Well, I finished. I wanted to finish today as it is the last day of my summer break. I go back to work for our teacher prep week tomorrow and then I'll have students the following Monday. My first ..."

Your spoiler sums up how the book made me feel!

Ya I'm going to have to find a lighter read! Nothing I have on my docket right now is very fluffy. I'm going to have to remedy that

My hold on The Summer Sword just came in. A middle grade mythological fantasy should fit the bill as a palate cleanser

Katrisa wrote: "Janice wrote: "I'm beginning to see why this appealed to me so strongly when I first read it. ..."

[spoilers removed]"

I like you're perspective on the angel.

The other thing about the angel is that (view spoiler)[I think it symbolizes Hagar refusal to see. She's locked into her own world view and refuses to see others' viewpoints. (hide spoiler)]

Katrisa wrote: "I just finished ch 8
[spoilers removed]"

I agree. (view spoiler)[She saw them as faults rather than sorrows. Perhaps Margaret Laurence chose to symbolize that with stomach cancer - swallowing all that. (hide spoiler)]

Katrisa wrote: "Well, I finished. I wanted to finish today as it is the last day of my summer break. I go back to work for our teacher prep week tomorrow and then I'll have students the following Monday. My first ..."

I have always said I want to be feisty and independent. (view spoiler)[but maybe not that feisty or independent. I certainly wouldn't want my son calling me a holy terror. LOL! (hide spoiler)]

Janice wrote: "
The other thing about the angel is that"

(view spoiler)[Yes I can see that too. Also perhaps it symbolizes Hagar's family's "airs" (for lack of a better term) and how they lost their high position. The last time we hear about the angel her face has been all weathered and is it her mouth that is white? So she goes from her early glory to the lipstick to the weathered form. It's a great title because you can read a lot into it! (hide spoiler)]

I've always looked for a book that "makes my heart sing" in order to rate a book as 5 stars. While exploring the possible symbolism of the stone angel, I was feeling that thrill.

Janice wrote: "I've always looked for a book that "makes my heart sing" in order to rate a book as 5 stars. While exploring the possible symbolism of the stone angel, I was feeling that thrill."

I'm glad you enjoyed this so much. Is this your first book by Margaret Laurence? My mother had a number of her books, which is how I came to read some by her when I was growing up.