The Debate Club discussion

Since the old topic about abortion was getting a bit stale, and we seemed to be going in circles, the mods thought we'd make a fresh topic. You can reference the old topic here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Be respectful and enjoy your debating!

Barnette {#rememberalexei} wrote: "Since the old topic about abortion was getting a bit stale, and we seemed to be going in circles, the mods thought we'd make a fresh topic. You can reference the old topic here: https://www.goodrea..."

thank youuu so much and yeah it definitely was XD
it legit has 1900 posts like whatt

Yes it should be legal :)

Yes, it should be legal. A woman's decison on her own body should be between her and her doctor. Not the government.

no, it shouldn't be legal. abortion is the accepted murder of unborn children. i understand that there are some traumatic cases in which babies are conceived (r@pe for instance) but traumatic events don't justify murdering innocent children. the unborn babies are not at fault for being born under the circumstances they are, and they shouldn't be punished by death because their mothers can't handle their births. now, i understand COMPLETELY why a mother wouldn't want to have to take care of the child of a man who r@ped her -that would be an extremely hard thing to have to go through, waking up every day to nurture the baby of sexual assault- but there IS the option to have people adopt the child. there ARE people who would gladly adopt a baby if it saved them from being aborted because they realize there is a value to an unborn life. babies are gifts to the world and should be treated as such because everyone in the world plays an important role, even if they aren't some superstar on social media.

back to the initial topic i stated: abortion is murder. it really is murder when you think about it. it's a widely accepted practice of removing innocent children form this world before they even have the chance to live it to the fullest. what makes abortion any different than someone shooting and killing their living kids?
women who abort don't only see their unborn babies as results of a traumatic experience, but also the often see them as an inconvenience.
mothers who shoot and kill their living kids see their kids as inconveniences also, and often the shooters are dealing with some sort of trauma that leads to the instability of their mental health.
https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/p...

this link leads you to a page that shows some of the abortion percentages and their reasons behind the abortions under the paragraph captioning "Results".

most abortions take place within the first 13 weeks of conception, so the fetuses are literally being ripped away from their lives at roughly a third of the way in their development. notice that even though they aren't fully developed, they still are developed three months! that means that all of their organs have been formed, they are developing hair and nails, their urinary systems have started to work, their livers start creating bile, and they can move around, suck their thumbs, make facial expressions, and yawn. you cannot tell me that a baby doing all of that isn't just a lump of cells. women aborting their babies are not just lumps of cells when they're killed. they are functioning human beings.

I firmly believe that abortion is the murder of innocent children and not only does it sadden me that it's a widely accepted practice, but also that so many unborn children up to this point in time have never even been given the opportunity to live their lives to the fullest.

yes it should be legal! if it’s for a safety reason (or a health reason of some sort) it is definitely okay for it to happen. but, if it’s just cause you didn’t want a baby, then that’s debatable (if it’s a teen pregnancy then that’s a different situation, but if the parents are two adult people, then it’s not as okay to do it imo)

@eloise 100% agree

Syd wrote: "@eloise 100% agree"

:)

i think sometimes we forgot the fact that adoption doesn’t actually solve ANYTHING. imagine it’s a 13 or 15 year old girl that’s pregnant. you can say she can put it up for adoption, but are you really about to force a child to suffer in pain for 9 whole months, and then suffer through the birth of that child? it’s painful and scary for GROWN WOMEN. just because they can get pregnant doesn’t mean they’re bodies are developed and ready to be pregnant.

alex wrote: "yes it should be legal! if it’s for a safety reason (or a health reason of some sort) it is definitely okay for it to happen. but, if it’s just cause you didn’t want a baby, then that’s debatable (..."

for specific safety reasons, yes. i believe abortion should be a possibility. my own aunt had a health complication where her baby started to grow inside of one of her tubes instead of her uterus and it had to be removed otherwise it would have killed her. so yes, i see your aspect of that view of abortion. but not all abortion cases are for medical reasons.

also, teen pregnancies are saddening... if they are sexual abuse cases. if a fourteen-year-old girl gets pregnant because she willingly slept with someone, she shouldn't just kill the baby to get rid of the consequences of her actions. she should put the baby up for adoption after it's born (if she cannot take care of it) but she shouldn't kill it off.

Yes it would be traumatic for a 15 year old to have a child but that’s not the baby’s fault. It’s proven that the baby can feel the pain as they are being ripped apart and you want to do that to an innocent child conceived in rape?

Syd wrote: "Yes it would be traumatic for a 15 year old to have a child but that’s not the baby’s fault. It’s proven that the baby can feel the pain as they are being ripped apart and you want to do that to an..."

exactly. babies when they are aborted are literally functioning human beings. abortion is murder no matter the case.

sieraqvt🇻🇳 semi-ia (school) wrote: "i think sometimes we forgot the fact that adoption doesn’t actually solve ANYTHING. imagine it’s a 13 or 15 year old girl that’s pregnant. you can say she can put it up for adoption, but are you re..."

adoption actually does solve things, but that is besides the point. the point you presented is that teen pregnancies should be able to have the option of abortion.
the fact is, is that nobody - not even grown women- will ever truly be ready for the reality of a baby. i understand that the pain and fear of the reality for teenagers having a baby would be much more increased than a more mature adult woman, but fear and pain don't give someone the right to kill innocence. the unborn child did nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be punished by death for the reasons they were conceived. i still stand by adoption.

abortion isnt the murder of innocent children. they arent even children yet at all. they have the possibility of being children.

would you let a 15 year old adopt a baby? no. how is it being biological any different

as i said in my previous comments, babies are most often aborted within the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. if you did a simple google search you would find that babies in their first three months of conception (13 weeks = roughly 3 months) are functioning human beings. they have all of their organs developed, their different body systems are working, they move like babies do, can yawn, make facial expressions, and even suck their thumbs.

they ARE in fact children. they are not just lumps of cells. and as @Syd commented, babies can feel the pain of being killed when aborted. they are conscious enough that they can feel themselves being murdered.

abortion is murder.

they undergo that pain later in the pregnancy, and within that time frame, people dont usually have an abortion

gia wrote: "would you let a 15 year old adopt a baby? no. how is it being biological any different"

if it is biological and not aborted, most people put the baby up for adoption. the fifteen-year-old most likely won't want to keep the baby anyways.

gia wrote: "they undergo that pain later in the pregnancy, and within that time frame, people dont usually have an abortion"

within that time frame, yes. women DO usually have an abortion.

At this point, it's a matter of which life you value more. The mother's or the potential child's.

(also lovee ur pfp)

murder, in criminal law, is the killing of a person by another that is not legally justified. a fetus becomes a legal human person when it is born. https://legalvoice.org/legal-fetal-pe....
so abortion isnt murder, because the fetus isnt a 'person' yet until it is birthed.

all lives are valuable. both the mother's AND the unborn child's lives are of immeasurable worth.

what would you say in the case where the mother would die if she didnt have an abortion?

in some cases, birthing the fetus would kill the mother and the baby.

Did you know if someone kills a pregnant woman they are charged with killing two people? So the unborn baby is a person

if you know the fetus is dying why have a miscarriage instead of an abortion hello

the abortion is sometimes the only resort. yes, it isnt a great option, but a mother knows what shes gonna go through if she decides to have an abortion.

im for abortion for the desperate situations, the last resorts, when there is absolutely no other option

eloise (in my arcane eraaaaaa) wrote: "no, it shouldn't be legal. abortion is the accepted murder of unborn children. i understand that there are some traumatic cases in which babies are conceived (r@pe for instance) but traumatic event..."

replying to paragraph 2:
there is a difference. if you shoot a living child, they are conscious and will feel the emotional and physical pain. however, if you abort a fetus, they are not conscious and will not feel any pain at all (well they're only unconscious up until a certain threshold in the pregnancy, there's debate over where that is but that's where i'd make the cutoff). since they won't feel anything, and have actually never felt anything, it's much more ethical. why is there a difference between killing let's say a dog and a plant? because the dog is conscious and can feel things. the plant is not conscious, has never been conscious, and cannot feel anything.

I feel we are just going back and forth. Yes the fetus does feel pain and they are conscious

Syd wrote: "Did you know if someone kills a pregnant woman they are charged with killing two people? So the unborn baby is a person"

you took the words directly out of my mouth

gia wrote: "what would you say in the case where the mother would die if she didnt have an abortion?"

as i stated in a previous comment, specific medical reasons are the only exception to abortion. like i said before, my aunt would have died if she hadn't removed the baby from her tubes.

Syd wrote: "Did you know if someone kills a pregnant woman they are charged with killing two people? So the unborn baby is a person"

i'm not speaking for everybody because some people might want to get rid of this law, but i'd say it's different bc in the scenario where she was killed, she was actually planning to give birth and create another human. however, in the scenario where she had an abortion, she never wanted to give birth and create another human. I mean even in the first scene I wouldn't say the unborn baby was alive in any way, but since the mother was planning to make the fetus alive, and really wanted to, it counts (in this case).

gia wrote: "At this point, it's a matter of which life you value more. The mother's or the potential child's."

I wasn't going to get involved in this topic, but I'll say this. The mother's. The one who has a fully developed human body, has the ability to feel pain and emotions, who has the ability to form thought and make decisions, and whose choice it is what to do with her body, because the fetus is part of her body until it's born. Even if the fetus/baby can feel pain at a certain point, it is still not a fully developed human, it cannot form thoughts and understand its environment, it cannot become depressed and su1cial because of what it's been put through until it is older, and it cannot make decisions for itself and the people in its life.

The mother should be put first. It's not an easy decision, but she should decide what is right for her, her family, and the fetus/child.

Sai :) wrote: "eloise (in my arcane eraaaaaa) wrote: "no, it shouldn't be legal. abortion is the accepted murder of unborn children. i understand that there are some traumatic cases in which babies are conceived ..."

Exactly. That wasn't an accurate comparison imo.

Syd wrote: "I feel we are just going back and forth. Yes the fetus does feel pain and they are conscious"

typically at the time an abortion is administered they can't feel pain. yes there are exceptions but babies develop full capacity for pain around the 25 week mark. cut off time for abortions is usually the 24 week mark (unless it's to save the mother's life)

also, you can't say it's murder because they are not legally a human yet, that happens at birth. calling it a fetus doesn't dehumanize it, it's just the literal term for an unborn baby. a baby and a fetus are two different things. just thought i'd throw that out there lol

I think both lives matter the same amount and if we’re talking about how traumatic giving birth can be, getting an abortion can also be traumatic. Many people actually wish they could take back their abortion due to the pain or just feeling bad about killing their own kid. I highly recommend you watch abortions where they rip the baby apart, and yes the baby can feel pain when their head is being separated from the rest of their body. I’ve watched several myself and it brings me to tears every time. My own grandmother had an abortion when she was around 17 and she feels horrible about it to this day.

its the mothers responsibility to go into getting an abortion knowing what shes doing. if shes uneducated, thats on her. just because your grandmother regrets her abortion doesnt mean future women who get an abortion will

ultimately, this whole argument comes down to the whole thing that people want to deny that an infant isn't fully human in the womb because they want to justify the murder of an innocent child because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions.

in the case of r@pe it is a tragedy for the victim, but that doesn't mean that justifies killing the innocent child. the mother would be rightly traumatized in many ways, but does a traumatic experience give her the right to kill an innocent life that didn't have a say or choice in the matter either.

I know someone personally who was conceived by r@pe and his mother chose to KEEP him and he grew up into a normal, decent human being with a wife and kids. how is it fair to rob an innocent life of their potential in the world?

i dont even know how to respond to this lol

eloise (in my arcane eraaaaaa) wrote: "as i said in my previous comments, babies are most often aborted within the first 13 weeks of pregnancy. if you did a simple google search you would find that babies in their first three months of ..."

not all fetuses can feel pain. there is debate in the scientific community about whether that's the end of the first trimester or sometime in the third trimester, but I agree, whenever that it, abortion should be illegal afterwards

gia wrote: "its the mothers responsibility to go into getting an abortion knowing what shes doing. if shes uneducated, thats on her. just because your grandmother regrets her abortion doesnt mean future women ..."

Exactly. And just because you may regret it or it may be really difficult, doesn't mean it wasn't the ultimately best decision. There are so many factors and everyone's experience is different. Just because some people regret their decision doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option.

I believe abortion is murder and it should never be an option. That’s my stance on this issue. This is a very controversial topic and I understand why some say abortion is needed but I don’t believe abortion is ever an option.

eloise (in my arcane eraaaaaa) wrote: "ultimately, this whole argument comes down to the whole thing that people want to deny that an infant isn't fully human in the womb because they want to justify the murder of an innocent child beca..."

You keep bringing up individual experiences by people you know, and while yes those experiences are valid and I'm glad it worked out that way for them, everyone's experience is different. It was that mother's choice to keep the child, and maybe it was a good decision. But for another mother in a completely different situation, an abortion might be the best option for her. Because not getting an abortion worked out for one person doesn't mean that applies to everyone. It should be an option for the people who decide that's the best choice.

Syd wrote: "I believe abortion is murder and it should never be an option. That’s my stance on this issue. This is a very controversial topic and I understand why some say abortion is needed but I don’t believ..."

What is your definition of murder?

when a fetus can feel pain:
(by the way, nih.gov articles are extremely wordy, so just ctr+f the summary points and start there if you don't want to read all that)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles...
https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-a...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles...
https://www.webmd.com/baby/when-can-a...


like i said, there's a healthy amount of debate 😂
however, almost everyone can agree that at least first trimester fetuses (well medically speaking embryos) cannot feel pain

eloise (in my arcane eraaaaaa) wrote: "ultimately, this whole argument comes down to the whole thing that people want to deny that an infant isn't fully human in the womb because they want to justify the murder of an innocent child beca..."

okay but you don't understand that it's not a fully developed human. not medically or legally. you also don't get that an abortion is a very hard choice for people to make. they're not just getting an abortion because "oof i'm not in the mood to have a baby right now!" like no it's expensive, and emotionally and physically draining. people aren't getting abortions left and right for no reason, they're getting them because their lives are being negatively impacted by the fetus growing inside of them. i know people who have gotten abortions, it's not easy.

"they want to justify the murder of an innocent child because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions" you don't get to decide whether a pregnancy is healthy or not. sometimes people get pregnant on purpose, but it negatively affects their emotional/physical state so they can't keep the baby. sometimes people get pregnant on accident and can't financially or emotionally care for a child. who's well being do you prioritize? a living, functioning woman or an unborn fetus that can't even survive outside the womb by itself?

Murder is the killing of a person with no ethical justification. And before you say anything, the fetus is a person, and killing them to save yourself isn’t ethical. The fetus has a heartbeat around the 10th week of pregnancy and a developing brain around week 7 and in week 16 the brain starts to control basic functions. And even if you have an abortion as early as possible, life starts at conception. Right when you have a fertilized egg you have a developing organism with unique DNA from the mother and the father.

Syd wrote: "Murder is the killing of a person with no ethical justification. And before you say anything, the fetus is a person, and killing them to save yourself isn’t ethical. The fetus has a heartbeat aroun..."

as long as the fetus isn't conscious or can detect pain, having a heartbeat or something doesn't really make a difference in terms of abortion.