Victorians! discussion

Brief Summary:

(Chapter 13) Tom Pinch shoves a book into young Martin at his departure. Martin finds a half a sovereign inside. He eats at a pub and meets a man who offers Martin a ride for London in exchange of Martin's silk handkerchief. He pawns his clothes in London and runs into Tiggs who persuades the pawnbroker to make a poor deal and then wheedles money from him, saying he helped Martin into a good bargain. Martin stays in London for several weeks and runs out all his money. When he was at the point of destitution, he mysteriously receives a letter containing 20 pounds. Shortly after Mark Tapley comes to meet Martin and offers service as Martin's valet. Martin explains his financial position but Mark is not keen on money. Martin agrees to take Mark on. Mark tells Martin that he met his grandfather and the lady (Mary) at the Blue Dragon. He says that they are in London now. Mark agrees to take a letter from Martin to Mary.

In chapter 14, Martin and Mary meet before Martin and Mark departs for America. Martin tells Mary about Mr. Pinch and recommends her to his protection. He informs her that their communication to each other should be through Pinch.

Martin and Mark sail for America. The voyage is described in chapter 15. Martin keeps aloof from others, embarrassed that he had to share a lower berth with common people. Mark sees Martin for his conceited, selfish nature.

Chapter 16-17 describes the adventures of Martin and Mark. On landing in New York, Martin befriends one Colonel Davis, the editor of a New York journal. He introduced Martin to a "genteel boarding house" run by one Mrs. Pawkins. Meantime, Martin makes friends with one Mr. Bevan and makes other acquaintances.

The part I particularly enjoyed in this week’s section was the beginning of Chapter 15: A Ship! The description of the sea, the wind and the ship, as if living, sentient beings was poetic and beautiful. I loved it.

I also love Mark Tapley, who seems invaluable in times of trouble. He’ll be a lucky charm for Martin, and I hope he deserves it. Mark taking care of the woman and her children as well as many others on board, always considerate, always cheerful, always helpful, was very endearing. Dickens created a wonderful character here! I wish the story was about him, because I would much rather read about his encounter with Cicero, the former slave, than about Martin’s with the snobby New York elite.

I was a little disappointed that Martin was just as selfish as a lover than he is as a friend and man. Mary deserves better, and for a moment, I was hoping she’ll meet and fall in love with Tom Pinch! Doesn’t seem very likely, but good people deserve each other.

Nevertheless, Martin has already become slightly more likeable through being humbled by his current state of poverty. He does not react with anger or resentment, but with shame, humility and a healthy dose of ambition. There is hope for him, I think.

Not yet sure what to make of Mr Bevan. He seems like a good guy and we need more of these!

Lindenblatt wrote: "The part I particularly enjoyed in this week’s section was the beginning of Chapter 15: A Ship! The description of the sea, the wind and the ship, as if living, sentient beings was poetic and beaut..."

Dickens is a master of description. I agree with you, Lindenblatt. It was beautifully done.

As at present, Martin is unworthy of Mark's devotion and loyalty. I hope soon Martin may come to realize how lucky he is to have Mark

I agree with everything Piyangie and Lindenblatt have mentioned about young Martin and Mark.

Martin seems to have that ‘Chuzzlewit Curse,’ a trait of pure selfishness that Dickens spent chapter after chapter trying to explain to us at the beginning of the book. There is a superciliousness in his treatment of Mary that makes his love for her seem fraudulent. That Mary has pledged herself to him feels wrong even at this early stage of the book because he is not deserving of her unconditional love.

Young Martin might not come across as being as bad as some of the other Chuzzlewhit/Pecksniff family members but the grating nature of his patronising attitude should wear away the friendliness of the best of people. And yet Tom Pinch, Mark Tapley (and not forgetting Mary,) are all bending over backwards to do what they can for him. It may a pun but Martin has no class in the way he treats those people.

And in mentioning class, it seems that Dickens seems to stick the boot into Americans from the moment the story lands on the other side of the Atlantic. His references to thinking only about money, having no time for the arts and being as snobbish as the British were both blunt and sharp simultaneously.

I am also with Lindenblatt regarding the description of the tempestuous sea voyage. Waking with legs above your head after the storm was a great image to visualise.

’the first objects Mr Tapley recognized when he opened his eyes were his own heels — looking down to him, as he afterwards observed, from a nearly perpendicular elevation.
    'Well!' said Mark, getting himself into a sitting posture, after various ineffectual struggles with the rolling of the ship. 'This is the first time as ever I stood on my head all night.' ‘

I was curious to find out what a ‘key bugle’ was.

’ The driver's name, as he soon informed Martin, was William Simmons, better known as Bill; and his spruce appearance was sufficiently explained by his connection with a large stage-coaching establishment ………….. He aspired to the dignity of the regular box, and expected an appointment on the first vacancy. He was musical besides, and had a little key-bugle in his pocket, on which, whenever the conversation flagged, he played the first part of a great many tunes, and regularly broke down in the second.
'Ah!' said Bill, with a sigh, as he drew the back of his hand across his lips, and put this instrument in his pocket, after screwing off the mouth-piece to drain it; 'Lummy Ned of the Light Salisbury, HE was the one for musical talents.’

Here is some information about this instrument plus a clip from You Tube demonstrating the instrument being played.

https://organology.net/instrument/key...

Bill Simmons must have had some big pockets in his coat to store his key bugle.

There is so much in these chapters!
1. In the chapter in which Martin and Mark cross the Atlantic, Dickens once again uses the weather admirably to set the mood and establish the horrors, fear, and discomfort of an ocean voyage in those times.
2. We learn more about three characters: Tom Pinch, Martin, and Mark. Martin comes across as a vain man with no concern for those he considers beneath him, and too much concern for those who can help him. I sincerely hope he learns some life lessons while in America. Tom Pinch and Mark Tapley are very similar characters in that they have learned two secrets to happiness, which are putting other people before oneself and helping other people along their life journey.
3. Dickens does take some blows at the USA, but I honestly think he was very accurate in his criticisms (and I'm an American). Our society has a tendency to divide itself sharply over politics, race, and money, and it's somewhat gratifying (or sad) to note that it has probably always been that way. Maybe it's that way in many countries, but it must have been a shock to people who came to the US expecting perfect liberty and equality.

Ha, Trev - I thought the same about the key-bugle after researching!

Class distinctions during the time were rife in NY society as in Europe. It was gratifying to see Martin pulled down from his lofty self-perceptions by mingling with the high society at the Norris home. Although, quite interesting how he was able to infiltrate. He was new, educated, had manners and knew someone in common (even if only by chance). Towards the end of Chapter 17, it feels l like he is beginning to rethink his decision to go to America.

Also poignant was the portrayal of the first locals that Martin runs across - uncouth, uneducated, uncultured, and only seeking money.

Chuzzlewit curse! That's a good one, Trev. I also think that, despite his present selfishness, he'll ultimately turns out better than Jonas and Pecksniffs.

Chapter 13

I wondered where the £20 actually came from, who would’ve given such a gift? I felt sorry for Martin when he left in a hurry, but he was stupid going out in the rain not wrapped up properly. I thought it was a nice touch about Tom returning the money within the book. Tigg reappears but I don’t know why; for me it was like a cameo appearance in a soap opera.

Chapter 14

Martin met with Mary in the park I wondered how she managed to get away from her “employer“. I thought this “loved up“ meeting boring.

Chapter 15, et al

I too enjoyed the way that Mark enjoys helping others, our protagonist just doesn’t get it, does he? Martin was hiding away because he was in the cheap seats, not a good attitude but I think everybody agrees with that.

Dickens describes someone exaggerating: 1542 Park Lane what a joke! last time I was in Park Lane I didn’t really notice there was over 1500 buildings in it! Maybe the area isn’t as exclusive as I thought.

‘The New York Sewer’- now there is a name for a newspaper. When a bell sounded I assumed it was an emergency, but it was a dinner bell and I loved the way that the author described the greedy free-for-all as they scrambled to get a seat at the table. Martin embarrassed himself by referring to a man’s daughter who just happened to be his wife - of course marrying teenagers was normal practice those days. I agree with those who have suggested that Dickens doesn’t refer to Americans in a good light.

Both Trev and Nancy have commented on hard blows Dickens had aimed at America. I read somewhere that his views were improved after his second visit to that country. But he wrote Martin Chuzzlewit just after his first visit and his first impressions. I agree with Nancy in thinking that perhaps Dickens expected a country with perfect liberty and perfect equality and was disppointed in seeing that it was much the same as England. There never was any country with perfect freedom and equality, nor there'd be. It may
have been the disappointment coming from disillusionment that made Dickens so sharp against America.

Neil wrote: "Tigg reappears but I don’t know why..."

You'll learn the importance of that meeting later, Neil.

I’ve also read that part of Dickens unhappiness with the US stemmed from his frustration with the lack of copyright laws that allowed works like his to be published without the author receiving payment, a battle that he was unsuccessful in winning during his journey. On his next visit he did reassure American audiences of his affection for the US.

Lindenblatt wrote: "Mark taking care of the woman and her children as well as many others on board, always considerate, always cheerful, always helpful, was very endearing. Dickens created a wonderful character here! I wish the story was about him..."

Yes!! I adore Mark. He's probably among my all-time favourite Dickens characters.

I was a little shocked at how critical the narration becomes of Martin in this section. There have been a few pointed comments about his treatment of Tom Pinch by this time, but this seemed to take a hard turn into deeper condemnation when he assures Mary that he's going to be fine on this trip to America. I believe it is saying that he might have been trying to reassure her, but in doing so, he "took so little heed of her share in the separation; of her quiet monotonous endurance, and her slow anxiety from day to day" and that this shows the "one note self for every audible" (237). Mary doesn't hear that, only that he makes sacrifices for her, but the narrator notes that the "heart where self has found no place and raised no throne, is slow to recognise its ugly presence when it looks upon it" and that "Virtue is incredulous and blind" (237). These are blunt words, indeed! Mary, being so thoughtful and unselfish, credits her beloved with these same traits and is blind to his self-involvement.

But Mark, it seems, is not as blind as Mary to Martin. He is convinced that the ring she gives to Martin is purchased with her hard-earned savings although Martin believes it was a gift from his grandfather. This assumption on his part causes Mark to wonder at Martin's "strange obtuseness" to her nature and suggests to his mind "its real cause and root; and from that moment he had a clear and perfect insight into the one absorbing principle of Martin's character" (239). When Martin goes on to declare Mary "worthy" of him, and take glee in the fact that his relationship with Mary has "baulked the selfish schemes of others who had no right to form them" (239), I'm pretty sure that the "one absorbing principle" of Martin's character that Mark discovers is not love for Mary or unselfishness!

I know he can still change (and probably will), but the more we get to know him, the more unpleasant truths are revealed about him! If selfishness or narcissism is the "one absorbing principle" of Martin's character, that is going to take some work to overcome!

I, too, found Dickens' criticisms of Americans pretty sharp (although not untrue). I would definitely have to agree with him on the spitting! Ugh! That must have been really pleasant to be around--and what a shock for a proper British person to see that so openly done! The 5-alarm dinner bell scene was hilarious!

I did enjoy seeing the disparities between the classes, with Martin initially meeting the money-grubbing, uncouth newspapermen, and then finding himself with the upper-class Norris family. I loved it that, after all the trouble he goes to to avoid being seen with "the beggarly crowd" on the ship, he is outed so hideously in the middle of this dinner party! If Martin is going to have an attitude adjustment, he's going to need to start being knocked down on the regular. :)

I'm not sure yet, but I may love Mark Tapley MORE than Tom Pinch. I think Tom may have been too nice to tell Martin, as Mark does, over his fretting about having the after-cabin passengers see him in steerage, that "the ladies and gentlemen in the after-cabin know just as much about him, as he does about them, and are likely to trouble their heads about him in the same proportion" (246). In other words--get over yourself; they don't care about you! LOL

I also think that Mark realizes that Martin is the "test" of his jolliness philosophy that he has been waiting for! He observes that in regards to jollity, his current situation has some advantages over his previous one at the Dragon. He is gratified knowing that "he would carry its main excellence ashore with him, and have it constantly beside him wherever he went" (247), meaning that Martin, his greatest challenge yet, was going to be there 24/7, testing his abilities to new limits. I am curious to see whether Mark is up to the challenge! LOL

I agree with you, Cindy. At present, Martin is not very likable. But I feel, it's this journey abroad that's going to change him. That selfish attitude of his won't serve him much in America. His obstinacy and ignorance will be his downfall. I think he needs a good shaking, and that's what he is in for in America.

Between Tom and Mark, Mark is the sharper one. Though he doesn't judge, and is constant in his loyalty, he could very well see the true nature of any man. But to Tom, every man is good. He sees only the good side. For this reason, he can easily be used (which I fear what's Mr. Pecksniff is doing).