The Mookse and the Gripes discussion

This topic is for discussion of the shortlist after the announcement. I will update this introduction with the list of shortlisted books once we know what they are.

These are the 6 shortlisted books:

Flashlight by Susan Choi (Jonathan Cape)
The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny by Kiran Desai (Hogarth)
Audition by Katie Kitamura (Fern Press)
The Rest of Our Lives by Ben Markovits (Faber & Faber)
The Land in Winter by Andrew Miller (Sceptre)
Flesh by David Szalay (Jonathan Cape)

Roddy Doyle is a treasure! I am really enjoying this format.

Wow. Some big surprises there.

3 of my shortlist, and 3 I thought may make it. I like it! And no book I felt lukewarm about made it. (I am going to read S&S now...)

I actually cheered for Flesh - in this group, liking it felt a bit lonely, so I did not really expect it on the shortlist.

Although Endling missing is surprising.

Carnage!

I’m hugely disappointed that Endling & Seascraper didn’t make it… heartbreaking, really. S&S is arriving tomorrow so excited to start that & reread Audition & Land in Winter…

Neither of my top two (Endling and Love Forms) made the shortlist but both of my bottom two (The Land in Winter and The Rest of Our Lives) did. I thought the overall longlist was strong but the shortlist has shocking choices!

Yes, disappointed about Seascraper too. And Endling to a lesser extent.

Justice for Endling!

I suspect it's between Desai and Szalay for the win now...

I have a feeling it’s between Miller and Szalay

My top two (Audition and Land of Winter - - which I'm only halfway through but loving) made the cut. YAY!!

And my least favorites, Love Forms and Misinterpretation, were excluded.

I actually liked the rest to varying degrees (though I haven't yet read the Desai).

Overall happy, but very shocked Endling didn't make it just because it was so original. Surprised and happy that Flesh did.

It's a bit strange how hard they find it to talk about Flesh at the shortlist event.

Sad to see this is the end for Seascraper. I’m not a big fan of The Rest of our Lives, but I can support the other five on the shortlist.

I'm sorry and surprised Seascraper isn't there. I also wish The South were there, but not surprised it isn't. I know most here didn't like it much, but I loved it. My maternal grandmother is Malaysian, so maybe I'm prejudiced.

Edit: I cannot agree that the characters in Flashlight are "richly evoked." The book was okay for me, but not special. It was interesting, and the prose was nice, but I didn't feel I really knew any of the characters at all well.

I agree with the judges about Sonia and Sunny. It is a magnificent book. Lots of enjoyment to be had in reading it. I found it very immersive, but not as immersive as A Suitable Boy, for example. That book really had it all.

I agree with everything they said about Audition. I loved the book, but don't think it's better than Sonia and Sunny, just different. If pushing the limits of literature beyond the traditional is one of the criteria, this book is the one that does it. It's wonderfully inventive, and I did appreciate that.

The Rest of Our Lives just bored me. I found Tom way too passive to like. So, I totally disagree with the judges on that point.

I thought The Land in Winter was a beautiful, atmospheric book, and I agree with the judges about the authenticity of the party scene, but I didn't connect with any of the characters, something unusual for me in an Andrew Miller book. I thought Ingenious Pain and Oxygen were vastly superior books.

On my first read, I didn't much care for Flesh. On my second read, I began to like the book. The scene I'll always remember, however, is not the opening one, but the closing one in which a much older man is sitting on a bench under the blossoms of a chestnut tree. I kept wondering how he will be remembered and for what. His life was so buffeted by fate. I felt sorry for him much of the time. I kind of think Flesh will win, and I won't be unhappy about that.

For what it's worth, those are my thoughts on the six shortlisted books. Happy about Sonia and Sunny, disappointed in some of the others.

Congratulations to all the shortlisted authors, though. Writing any book is a huge challenge, so I wish all of them the best.

Anxious to read the opinions of others.

I had my hold of Flesh come up 3 hours ago and almost passed on it thinking it wouldn't make the shortlist. Glad I booked it and will be starting it tomorrow morning. So sad Endling did t make it as its my favorite book of the year so far.

I've read Flesh, Audition, Seascraper, and just about to finish Universality.

This is a satisfying shortlist, all the other authors are of interest to me. Susan Choi's Trust Exercise was an immensely memorable read a few years ago, a very fine demonstration of a writer's skills, so I'm happy to see her Flashlight shortlisted. Andrew Miller is one of those authors I've never read that I keep bumping into in reviews, so I welcome any extra motivation to actually read him. The Markovits book was one of the books I was sincerely interested in, but was discouraged from reading by some reviews.

Katie Kitamura's Intimacies was extremely well-written, and Audition reminded me again why I loved it. Although I think the theme is perhaps less relevant for a wider readership, the book is so well, if provocatively, constructed that it couldn't be ignored for the shortlist.

And then Flesh - this was the most solid of all my (scarce) Booker reads this year. Szalay made the best possible and dramatic use of spare language. I wouldn't mind seeing it win. For me, it was a representation of a sort of unintellectual lifestyle/worldview I can't resonate with, but what he, very importantly, managed to convey was that even those who live those lives are persons with pains, vulnerabilities, and fragilities that are just as authentic, legitimate, and challenging to them as are my own, quite or perhaps not so quite, different ones to me.

I haven’t read the Desai but I liked all the shortlisted books but did find the Miller a bit pretentious could do with a re-read though.

The only real surprise for me was the inclusion of The Rest of Our Lives, which I think was pretty universally disliked here. I wasn't going to read it but suppose I will give it a shot now.

The three I've read - Audition, Flesh, and Flashlight - were on my shortlist. I'm bummed Universality isn't moving on and in a perfect world would substitute it for the Markovits, which I'm not really looking forward to.

I think I liked the Markovits much more than most other members of this group. I was actually quite surprised, because the description did not appeal to me at all! So maybe you're going to have a much better time than expected?

I figured either the Markovits or Misinterpretation would make it given how annoying people found them!

And Endling had to be the sacrificial lamb.

Anna wrote: "I think I liked the Markovits much more than most other members of this group. I was actually quite surprised, because the description did not appeal to me at all! So maybe you're going to have a m..."

Maybe you're right! We both loved Flesh, so I'll go into this with an open mind.

I didn't find the Markovits annoying, I just didn't find its protagonist interesting or engaging, and I struggled with Szalay for much the same reason.

I did like what one of the judges said about all of the books having very different authorial voices, and they all said there were books they felt bad about leaving off both the shortlist and the longlist. The timing of the announcement meant that I couldn't concentrate on the middle section while doing the admin here.

Gwendolyn wrote: "Sad to see this is the end for Seascraper. I’m not a big fan of The Rest of our Lives, but I can support the other five on the shortlist."

I feel the same.

I went to the event I person although like Hugh was also slightly distracted - I did an instant Instagram post during the event (my daughter was at home ready to do a shortlist picture as i WhatsApp’d the list as it was read out)

Every year the shortlist is a surprise - a favourite cut (two this time) and a book very few people other than the judges would pick included (at the time I voted in the very big Bookstagram poll The Rest of Our Lives had literally had zero votes)

I thought the event was really well done though and the judges picked out the strengths of the books really well.

Disappointed to see three American authors and two books with such passive male characters.

Hope Audition wins - the other five don't appeal at all.

Very disappointed to see Endling and Universiality miss out - such great longlist picks but I can see not everyone would have liked them, so if they went for a consensus then understandable.

But Seascraper seemed universally loved, and a Booker book - haven't read it, and guess I won't now but a very odd omission.

I think I have got over my disappointment by reminding myself that this shortlist isn’t as bad as the 2022 shortlist.

And let’s not forget 2017 - one of the most predictable Booker longlisted of all time (it was not far off the Goodreads listopia) and then complete shock at the shortlist stage including the inclusion of the two rather weak debut novels and the exclusion of books that between them went on to win Women’s Prize, Goldsmith Prize, Dublin Literary Award (two years running), National Book Award, Pulitzer Prize, Costa Award (also two years running), British Book Award, Arthur C Clarke …

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "And let’s not forget 2017 - one of the most predictable Booker longlisted of all time (it was not far off the Goodreads listopia) and then complete shock at the shortlist stage including the inclus..."

I think 2009 had a lot of really wonderful books on the shortlist and longlist, but Wolf Hall was such a standout, I can't imagine any other book winning as good as they were.

it’s still a strong shortlist- this will be the first time in 5 years where it’s difficult to identify the winner (I've been managing to predict the winner correctly since 2020). As the quality is high:
Will they go for an experimental novel which questions the self? - Audition
Will they go for a tightly structured novel that focuses on a group of people struggling in a new harsh environment ( land in winter)
How about an introspective look at what it’s like to be a man in the 20th and 21st century? (Flesh)
A family saga in which all the characters search for their identities while in liberal and oppressive political systems (Flashlight)
I haven’t read the Desai and I don’t think the Markovits is very good but you can see it’s one those shortlists where any winner can be a contemporary classic

I guess I echo Hugh and rooted for both Flesh and The Rest of Our Lives to not be on the shortlist, while I liked Endling and Universality a lot, and found Seascraper very scenic. I don’t know if I find this year’s short or even longlist that strong, few blew me away so far (none of which progressed to the shortlist) and both the Szalay and the Markovits almost gave me a reading slump in their glum depiction of modern day masculinity. Currently busy in The Land in Winter and enjoying it and let’s see how the Desai is; fully agreed that the authorial voices are quite distinct this year.
The event itself was wonderfully done and fun to attend, with Roddy Doyle his humour and SJP her mixture of humility and wonderment being my highlights, although it made clear to me that what the judges look for this year is probably not what I would find the best fiction necessarily. Especially how Reid talked about the novels seems diametrically opposed to my tastes, but this could just be a coincidence and it is always interesting to see how different people can pick up such different things from the same book.
And as a CPA I enjoyed how they used a spreadsheet and red, amber, green status to guide the start of their discussion!

This is only the third booker I properly followed, but it was the most satisfying both at the long- and the shortlist stages. I just enjoyed most novels, and I really appreciate how diverse they were while still having themes in common. I guess this translates to a "strong" long- and shortlist for me. (However, had Mantel been on the list, my vote would have been clearer. :))

After the discussion yesterday, a win for my favorite Szalay seems unlikely, but I feel like there a so many other great books that I don’t really mind. There were not just literary bangers, of course, but I can see something in every novel on the shortlist.

And: I really loved the event yesterday. It made me understand the jury much better, even though I found that we often liked the same books for very different reasons. But it made me think of them differently, and I might even go for a re-read for some of them.

Losing one or more favourites at this stage happens almost every year, so these days I start with the expectation that they won't make it, which means that sometimes you can be pleasantly surprised when the judges agree with you.

I am still grateful to the judges for introducing me to Seascraper and Endling too.

Paul wrote: "But Seascraper seemed universally loved, and a Booker book - haven't read it, and guess I won't now but a very odd omission."

Seascraper was a nice book but to me not obviously a Booker book... it paints with quite a small canvas and is very much about one man who, although caught up in the changes of the time, doesn't exactly represent them.

I tend (maybe I'm wrong) to think of Booker winners as being quite topical or epic. They can be sweeping, telling the story of a country, or more personal but even then they tend to speak to the concerns of the present moment. Even Milkman, kind of a standout in my years of Booker reading, manages to be about the whole Troubles and potentially all polarized societies whilst being very specific and idiosyncratic.

I guess that's why I have my doubts about Audition being the winner. My bet is either Flesh (what is a man?) or the Desai (for sweep). Neither of which I've read, to be fair!

Emmeline wrote: "Paul wrote: "But Seascraper seemed universally loved, and a Booker book - haven't read it, and guess I won't now but a very odd omission."

Seascraper was a nice book but to me not obviously a Book..."

I really enjoyed Sonia and Sunny, but for me, the sweep was too broad for the Booker. Seascraper was my favorite, but now, I think it's Flesh or Audition. I think Audition may suffer from the fact that it's most understood by people in the theater. (I didn't say that quite right, but I think everyone knows what I mean.)

The inky book the judges introduced me to was The Rest of Our Lives (had read 11 and has another in my TBR) - so I feel a lot less charitable than Hugh !!

I watched the livestream of the event and thought it was nicely done! Sad to see that only about 700 people were watching though - seems like a small number for an event with potential international appeal.
I got the impression this year's jury had really worked well together - lots of comments and laughs about traffic light rating systems and views changing on certain books. They seemed genuinely sad that it was over and they wouldn't be meeting again.

Not a fan of this shortlist. I really thought Endling was our frontrunner, even if it wasn't my #1 pick. Out of the ones I've read from this shortlist, I would give it to The Land in Winter, but it seems to be the outlier here, since the outhers seem to be more formally daring. Now I guess it's going to go to the Kitamura, which I did not like at all.

My hardback copy of Sonia & Sunny has just arrived. Having read an ARC last month, it is a bit superfluous now, but at least it made the shortlist unlike last year's Powers. Will keep it for a future reread.

Due to the Rosh Hashanah holiday, I was unable to watch the livestream of the shortlist event or pay much attention at all to it until late last night. I thought the event itself was wonderful. Listening to the five judges talk was fascinating and funny and endearing, and I agree with others who have commented that it is clear how much they like one another and have benefitted from the experience. I am fairly certain that the same cannot be said of other judging panels.

For me, this is a satisfying shortlist. Along with Anna, I have been an outlier in praising The Rest of Our Lives, and it's a delight to see that the judges seem to feel the same. I am very disappointed not to see Seascraper on the shortlist and very surprised not to see Endling. But otherwise the list seems strong and somewhat predictable. Flesh was my least favorite of the longlisted titles but widely expected to be shortlisted, and if I can bear it, I will give it another try.

I received the audio of Sonia and Sunny yesterday. I started it on a flight and promptly fell asleep so will need to restart. Land in Winter won't be released until November 4. And The Rest of Our Lives is not released until January - and since the blurb doesn't interest me, I see no reason to read it.

I am disappointed that Endling did not make the list. I'm currently reading Seascraper - it's fine but so far not enjoying as much as Endling and Universality. Of the 3 I've read, I liked Flashlight best. Who knows, maybe it will win both the Booker and the NBA fiction.

Meh. Where's Endling? I'm happy Audition and Land in Winter got shortlisted. Not super enthusiastic about the others.

This week one book on the longlist was published in hardback and two in paperback. They all made the shortlist.

I had missed the shortlist reveal yesterday due to other priorities. In looking at it later in the evening, I really had no thoughts except to make any judgment on the winner, I should probably finish the list because three of the four I hadn't read were on the shortlist. Thoughts that sprang from that are related to GY's comment above, and I will try to explain. Book prizes IMO, serve multiple ends and two major ones are to celebrate what has already been written and encourage what is to come. I think for most of my life I equated book prize winners with the best of the best, and I looked at them as celebrating the quality of the preceding year, but the prizes are equally promotional encouraging readers to engage with more books.

I think disillusionment sets in when our sense of the book prize loses the idea that these books were of the best quality and is replaced with the idea that these were just a random set of books. I think the latter idea is fostered when the book prizes seem more like they are promoting quantity rather than superiority and that is my feeling this year. In truth most of my new book reading is average, with a few good books, a few less great books, and a few books that were terrible IMO. I think that is the same for all of us and given a random pile of new books in our favored genre, we will probably come up with similar percentages with each random group of books. Certain years might have more of the books we tend to favor as individuals and those would be considered more successful years. The illusion is that we are reading the best of the books released though, and that illusion alone increases our appreciation of these books.

I see the illusion being challenged over the past years with book prizes and that may be because the book prize nominees seem more like random choices and the emphasis seems more on reading greater numbers than reading the best. I'm not going to argue whether there is truth to this but I think there might be a number of contributing factors toward it seeming so. The worldwide communication advantages almost guarantee that we would as readers sharing information, develop our own shared idea of what was best when previously that had been relegated to the critics from journals we read and filtered down to us. Now we are reading from arcs nearly at the same time as the critics and developing our own opinions independent of their influence. Another factor is that publishers and other commercial interests are seemingly becoming more refined in marketing to maximize profit and their behaviors and use of algorithms may be more visible to us so that we tend to see those behaviors as exploiting us rather than offering us more content.
Anyway to cut this short, I think we must adjust our own expectations and perhaps our own behaviors to not get worn down or out by what is happening with book prizes, publishing, and the pleasure of reading. I liked things about this list, cheered its arrival, and am moving on to other things. There are more great books out there to read, more prize lists coming, and older books just waiting for your personal discovery so I am going to move on to my future reads. In the meantime I reserve the right to celebrate or bewail the eventual winner.

LindaJ^ wrote: "I received the audio of Sonia and Sunny yesterday. I started it on a flight and promptly fell asleep so will need to restart. Land in Winter won't be released until November 4. And The Rest of Our ..."

I'm guessing you're based in the U.S. If you're interested, you might be able to acquire a digital ARC of these titles. I was able to get a copy of both Land in Winter and The Rest of Our Lives through Edelweiss.

I have a Kobo account with an address set to a Waterstone. I can purchase a gift card from my USA account and send it to my fake UK kobo account. That is how I got Seascraper on epub. Also, you can order the physical book from.Waterstones and sometimes its cheaper than Amazon or B&N.

It's quite frequently cheaper if you order the physical book from Blackwell's, which I did for Seascraper, The Land in Winter and The Rest of Our Lives.

Roddy Doyle bemoaning the quality of most entries:

https://archive.is/iXAy9

I wonder what’s the one with the really small font size. Can anyone think.

I do think there is an irony that Kiley Reid is the opinionated one. Her second novel set a bar for pretty poor books.