The Procrastinators Book Club discussion

Welcome to the The Bell Jar Buddy Read Discussion thread! This thread officially opens on October 1st and anyone can join at any time. Please keep in mind that spoilers are allowed in this thread but only up to the group's current reading place. Do not spoil the book if you've read further than the group. Any extra days can be used to catch up!

Each day we will be reading by chapters or page numbers. Page numbers are an approximation based on the hardcover or paperback that is the default on Goodreads. The suggested Buddy Read discussion schedule is as follows:

Week of 10/01
01: Chapters 1-2
02: Chapters 3-4
03: Chapters 5-6
04: Chapters 7-8
05: Chapters 9-10

Week of 10/06
06: Chapters 11-12
07: Chapters 13-14
08: Chapters 15-16
09: Chapters 17-18
10: Chapters 19-20


PARTICIPANTS
~Sophie
~Anushka
~Fool-of-a-Took

I'm not sure what counts as having read further than the group, and how different timezones might change this, so I'll mark all of my notes and remarks as spoilers until I'm sure its on track with the schedule.

Chapter One:
(view spoiler)[- themes of death right from the start of this - she has some sort of depression
- she also doesn't seem to have control in her life - just goes along with everything else.
- brown eyes and brown hair - she described herself through the objects around her, which is really creative and well-done, might it be a commentary on how the MC views herself?
- shes telling this from the future, after everything in the story has happened.
- something happened to her between now and then which caused her to be not 'all right'
- she's from new England
- what does Doreen represent? she seems to be the same sort of bored girl that she hates, and on top of that, seems arrogant, cruel and 'worldly'. Possibly that "elaborate decadence that attracted me like a magent."
- "as if she were trying to save me in some way."
- Doreen and 'Elly' seem to be equally bad friends to each other. I wouldn't say either of them are more entitled to act the way they do, and as 'Elly' is the MC, it seems the reader is positioned to sympathise with her over Doreen. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Two:
(view spoiler)[- Lenny seems and acts like a hunter, but he has run over some of the animals he keeps.
- 'small black dot', 'hole in the ground'
- she seems to really want/need human connection, attention and care, but doesn't seem to want to actively seek it out.
- a hot bath is what she uses to heal herself - 'growing pure again'. She also uses this as an excuse to not confront her feelings - its a fix, but only a temporary one.
- use of the words dissolving and pure
- She left her friend when her friend asked her not to, and is upset that Doreen woke her up from her sleep and 'purification'.
- She also tried to leave Doreen, but couldn't quite make herself do it. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[I'm enjoying reading this story, and am sort of being reminded of The Great Gatsby's illusions of wealth and happiness in the way 'Elly' sees the world from this despairing, broken view. I feel quite a bit of pity for Doreen, though I still don't like her, but don't pity 'Elly' too much, which I surprised myself with. I'm interested to see if that view changes, and am very interested to see how the story advances from here. (hide spoiler)]

Chapters 1-2

(view spoiler)[ I do also see the subtleties of her depression slowly building. Like you said, she goes along with everyone else, lacks a purpose. She seems to have a fixation on being 'pure', so maybe there was something in her past that has stuck with her and made her feel 'dirty'? Some kind of trauma, maybe? But I'm not sure, that seems a little too obvious. Either way I am enjoying so far, the pacing flows well and the language is advanced in it's formation yet approachable for most readers. (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 2

I can feel her sadness and misery from the get go. She lacks purpose and that alone would not be unusual, seeing as most 19 year olds lack purpose and direction.
Ditching an office party to have fun out in the city was also a normal reaction. But leaving Doreen after she had expressively requested her friend to not do so was just mean. And then leaving her in her own vomit on the floor. Wow. Our MC is not out at a good start, at least in my book. She was jealous and lonely and I get all that but I would not leave a drunk woman alone in a man's apartment, even if she wasn't a friend. I guess the obsession with bath and purity makes sense. She needs clarity and more self acceptance. The way she talks about herself inside her own mind is so full of self loathing.
You're right that it's easy to read and I'm curious as to how her time in New York and her friendship with Doreen will progress. Doreen doesn't seem like the type to take such an insult lightly but who knows.

Chapter Three:
(view spoiler)[- we've heard a lot about Buddy Willard. Who is he and is he important?
- wondering what that one exception is. its seems like we're being deliberately told that to find out later, but I guess we'll see.
- "They had set her place next to mine for some reason," maybe because you were best friends a second ago, or has more time passed than I thought?
- Not sure if Doreen's happy being with Lenny, but I'm certainly feeling sorry for her - it seems like Esther has kinda ditched her and left her with no choice.
- Her attitude to eating her food seems the same as it is to bathing - ritualistic and planned. Trying to figure out whether it's a good thing or not.
- Why does it seem like Doreen has forgiven her and is fine with the way she's been treated?
- She's definitely an over-thinker, and her lack of purpose is again explored.
- The fake image she presented to her chem teacher seems to show some care, but it wasn't to be kind to him, only to help herself. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Four:
(view spoiler)[- Oh, never mind, we're feeling sorry for it, that's a good start. Would be nice if we could've had some of the sympathy for Doreen in the first chapters.
- I like Jay Cee. So far she seems like she cares about Esther, and is a bit more sensible than some of the others. Esther didn't like the way she talked to her, but I feel like she might have needed it.
- who would've poisoned them?
- Doreen is very forgiving. I guess she understands a bit of the way Esther thinks? Either that or they just don't have a good friendship. Maybe Esther's apologised? (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[I'm honestly not sure how Doreen and Esther still have a functioning friendship. It still doesn't feel like the story is heading in any particular direction, but I do hope that Doreen and Esther fix whatever they've got going on. Although we've been introduced to some other characters, such as Betsy, it doesn't seem like they've been fleshed out enough to be contributing to the overall narrative. I am liking Betsy, she seems kind, even if something feels a bit off about her. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Five:
(view spoiler)[- "black sleep"
- Esther wants to be able to completely control the narrative of her life and the people around her, as seen in the way she thinks about the interpreter, for example.
- we now know a little bit of why Esther doesn't like Buddy, but still no specifics.
- Some of the trouble she seems to have with social interactions seems pretty normal for someone growing up in a different environment. Doesn't seem to excuse her much, though.
- Again, Esther seems to want to control how her life plays out, but when it doesn't, she is mostly fine to carry on. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Six:
(view spoiler)[- Esther's obsession with purity makes a lot more sense now.
- Her dislike towards Buddy also makes sense, though the specifics of what makes her dislike him confuse me. His deception rather than his actions themselves.
- Again, Esther lies to others to manipulate the way people view and act towards her. Using Buddy's tuberculosis as an excuse to have others leave her alone isn't fair to him, regardless of whether or not he knows. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[Esther seems to have a habit of trying to control others in her life, and frequently lying in order to do so. While it is somewhat normal for people to act that way, it isn't healthy and Esther seems to do it way too often, manipulating others to feel sorry for her, or to get what she wants. Her obsession with purity has a bit more of a background, but it is still rather concerning, and it seems like there might be more to it. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 3-4

Ok I'm glad you also don't know who Buddy Willard is because I thought it had been mentioned and I just missed it. Esther just seems to be very detached from everyone, you could even argue detached from human emotion and connection. Yes she felt bad for her chemistry teacher, but like you said, she did it for her own motivation, not for his benefit. I think Doreen may be latching on and trying to keep her relationship with Esther afloat because Esther may be the only 'friend' that Doreen has.

Chapter Seven:
(view spoiler)[- Esther hasn't been happy since her father died. Makes sense but it's strange that she hasn't been able to move forward - unless there's more that's happened, which seems likely from the way Esther acts.
- However, Esther doesn't seem to have anything else happened. Her mother still cared for her as much as possible.
- "I started adding up all the things I couldn't do" - very negative attitude.
- Esther has deliberately harmed herself (broke her own leg) to pay herself back for her actions??? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Eight:
(view spoiler)[- Buddy seems to honestly care for Esther, and while this might not be the case, if it is it's a bit disappointing that Esther cannot understand this.
- Was the broken leg deliberate? She seems to think it is but her memory seems to show another story.
- Why would Buddy be "satisfied" with her broken leg? Did he want to hurt her? Does he want to control her? Or does he just want to be right? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Nine:
(view spoiler)[- I'm really uncertain what was going on in that scene with Hilda. Is this another flashback or the present? It mentioned the hospital, but also the executions.
- Her emotions are described as an animal, which is very connotative, and she is able to be relieved of it for a time.
- Esther doesn't have much of an emotional response to Marco's horrible behaviour, which I find a bit concerning. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Ten:
(view spoiler)[- Esther has expected to get the course, but when she doesn't she says she'd expected that? Is this just because she has a pessimistic attitude and is not surprised by it?
- Twin bed empty?
- She isn't giving herself opportunities to be happy. Choosing what she knows and has said will make her "crazy".
- So Buddy doesn't care as much for Esther as it seemed. Or he cares for her, but only when she cares for him, too.
- "That would fix a lot of people."
- In one breath she dreams up plans, in the other she cannot see a future for herself.
- Good on Teresa, sending her to a psychiatrist.
- The lead up to this had made it clear she was getting worse, or at least showing it more. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[I think its likely that her father's death, paired with the start of her maturing and growing up, is what has caused her to be so depressed. She wasn't young enough to push it aside, but she wasn't old enough to cope and understand it completely, and she's been stuck in that state ever since. Although I doubt we'll ever see Teresa again, I found myself really drawn to her during the page she was in. And although I don't trust Buddy's character anymore, I do find myself liking some aspects of it, as well as the way it's written. I'm also really enjoying how slow-paced I'm finding this book to be. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Eleven:
(view spoiler)[- beige is used alongside an emotive/auditory adjective.
- Glad it feels safe
- It seems strange that we've only been told about how little shes been looking after herself, and the extent of her depression, now.
- Esther is overly critical of Doctor Gordon
- But her critics seem to be based in truth. He hasn't done much, nor talked about why he isn't doing much. It doesn't seem like he's going to be very helpful for her.
- 'Elly' seems to use lying as a bit of a way to cope - to escape herself.
- Gordon may be trying to help, but it also seems like he doesn't really know how - or he sees her as just a customer to make money off.
- Esther is now thinking a lot more seriously about her death, as well as running away.
- But she is now running back to her home... and away from her treatment, significantly. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Twelve:
(view spoiler)[- Or not? Did I miss-read that? She seems to be going to Doctor Gordon's after all.
- Ah, so, all that seems to be the sort of things to make Esther worse, not better.
- She says she hasn't slept for 21 nights, which isn't possible, according to google, so it's likely she has slept, but doesn't feel like she has.
- She's realised she doesn't want to kill herself, but the depression itself, or the idea of imperfection in herself. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[Esther's depression seems to have hit a bit of a climax, but her narration seems more in control than ever, and while we do know she writes this once she is better her calm attitude towards it seems frightening and unusual. Esther seems to have become a bit of an unreliable narrator due to her declining mental state. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Thirteen:
(view spoiler)[- Jody doesn't notice, as is often the case.
- Esther's not eating properly either.
- Esther probably wasn't right to mess with those women's flowers, but she did it with a good heart, and those women's reaction were completely out-of-line, particularly as they could see she was a volunteer.
- Hopefully crying for her father is going to start to heal her a bit.
- I'm pretty sure Sylvia herself took pills - I wasn't sure how closely autobiographical this would be, but it seems it's fairly close. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Fourteen:
I was too engrossed in the story to take any notes on this. It was written really well and I found it a lot more captivating than most of the other chapters.

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[Seeing how Esther interacts with the others in ward is really interesting, particularly as we as the audience need to discern for ourselves how reliable her narrative is, and how much it's integrity is being impacted by Esther's mental state. (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 7

I'm so far behind. Sorry about that. Anyway. The sickness outbreak was whatever but Doreen was by Esther's sickbed despite being left in her own vomit outside the door. That made me like Esther even less. Then we get some more of Esther's backstory of her college days. Her obsession with purity and virginity is strange but it probably made sense when it was written. I wonder if we'll see more of Constantin or other rare name boys. Jay Cee and the Chemistry prof. story are just more examples of her lack of direction or any real goals in life, as is apparent from the start. Moreover, almost every other page makes me feel Esther is one of the most self serving FMCs I've ever read. Nothing wrong with having high standards but she tends to make everything a competition. I wonder if that's how Depression plays out in some people. She wants to have sex, not for the experience but because she can't stand being lesser in any way, shape or form compared to any future husband she may have. I seriously doubt it would be Buddy Willard but whatever.

End of Chapter 10

Her breakdowns are becoming more and more frequent and it's giving me a very ominous sense of foreboding about what's to come.
Her assault at the hands of that terrible woman hater with no consequences enraged me beyond anything. I wish there had been some drama. Someone throwing one punch at his smug face at the very least. At least Esther made him bleed a little bit. Her throwing all her clothes away in the wind and not washing his bloody fingerprint from her face was shocking to me. Her failure at securing acceptance into the summer school writing program would hit her hard, that much I knew. But she has been asked to meet a psychiatrist and okay, she's probably needed it for years. The rejection letter must have been the trigger that broke the camel's back. It's interesting to note how practical Esther's mom is compared to her own dreamy flaky existence where she lives more with her head in the clouds and less with her feet on the ground. I wonder what the psychiatrist visit is going to be like.

Take your time. It's not too important if you don't get through it quickly or follow the schedule exactly.

Chapter Fifteen:
(view spoiler)[- "glass bell jar"
- I was wondering if that was going to show up in the book.
- Esther seems very different in this section. She seems to have lost a lot of her personality, a lot of her nastiness, and a lot of herself. I'm thinking this might be a good thing - showing her healing, but it may also be a 'numbing' of her as a result of the depression.
- Have we been introduced to Joan before? Why can't I remember her?
- Yes, we have. In Chapter five - I think Buddy was going out with her at a point, and she was a neighbour. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Sixteen:
(view spoiler)[- Here's hoping Joan and Esther will help, not hurt, each other.
- "But you're all right now". Esther seems to not care about weather Joan isn't actually okay, and it seems a bit fixated on being 'the only one' and the centre of the universe.
- And now she's treating her mother horribly too, well done. (Though
her mother could have been easing up on the guilt-fest and making it about herself.)
- I'm frankly unsure why Doctor Nolan is happy with Esther hating her mother. Maybe hating/anger is better than just wanting to die? (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[Esther is both so different and so similar to who she was before that it is driving me insane. These chapters also had a weird tone to them - they seemed sort of more 'numb' or empty of emotion or personality or something that's really bugging me. Then again, I could just be overtired. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Seventeen:
(view spoiler)[- Does her moving mean she's actually getting better, or do they just think she can get better if moved to a different place.
- I understand why Esther dislikes Joan, and sees her as a representation of how much she's failed, but I just can't get behind this constant hate and belittling of everyone she comes across.
- Dr Nolan did her best, but I don't think she understood what Esther really wanted.
- Why does Esther's courage not really feel like it to me? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Eighteen:
(view spoiler)[- So, the bell jar is an extended metaphor, for her mental state, I assume, but it hasn't been introduced until the very last chapters? Was I missing it, or is this strange?
- Again, why must Esther go on hating on these women who have done nothing to her?
- Joan is clearly struggling, and worsening, but Esther cannot or does not have the empathy to care about anyone beyond herself. I'm hoping this changes in the last 2-and-a-half chapters, but I'm doubtful.
- I can understand why Esther would want closure with Buddy, but I disagree that closure has to be being nasty to him.
- She doesn't really seem to want a relationship, just something that she can control. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[Esther seems like she would be able to have and show a lot of empathy if she tried, but she simply doesn't care enough about other people to bother. I found it interesting her narration said she couldn't remember whether Joan actually existed, as it seemed to me that Joan had only really started appearing when Esther was starting to get better and her mind was more stable. And is it just me, or did the last line of chapter eighteen sound sort of ominous? (hide spoiler)]

I'm also a little behind but I should be able to finish on time

Up to the end of chapter 14
(view spoiler)[Wow ok the birth scene in chapter 5 or 6? (I can't really remember) was way more graphic than I was anticipating, one of the many reasons I don't want kids. Everyone referring to Buddy as 'fine' and 'clean' and encouraging Esther to be with him is likely where her ritualistic behaviour regarding hygiene derives from, however, if I was Esther, I wouldn't have necessarily interpreted it that way, I would've, like most, thought that they had meant 'proper' and 'upstanding'. Anyway, she views him as the opposite now that she has found out that he isn't a virgin, even more links to her obsession with purity and cleanliness.

Marco is disgusting. Anushka, I agree! It's baffling how he had no consequences yet people were obsessed with chivalry and being a gentleman back then (in public settings at least).

I was very quick to notice the difference in the writing style after Esther's shock treatment. Still conscious, yet even more detached than before.

Again, the suicide attempt and the constant self harming are very graphic. It doesn't trigger me but it will likely affect many, and when you consider how many people recommend this book without at least disclosing that they should look up trigger warnings and to read with discretion....it's odd and disturbing to say the least.

I don't know if I missed it, but I don't recall Esther having a brother. She seemed hyper-fixated on seeing him, yet we saw the same detachment in him that we typically see in Esther. I do hope his character and his dynamic with Esther is explore more in the remaining chapters. (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 18

The past couple of chapters have read more like only a barely lucid dream. All the allusions to things and leaving the reader to ascertain and come to their own conclusions of things... it's an experience. I'm appreciative of how this book must have definitely been way ahead of its time, talk as it does of mental health, feminism, sexuality, even homosexuality. But it does get triggering at times. Also Esther is not a character that was probably intended to be likeable. This further makes the reading experience harder. End of Chapter 18 was ominous for sure. The "fitting" was a shock to say the least.

I also couldn't remember her brother being mentioned, and assumed I had just missed it. It's possible it wasn't mentioned?

Chapter Nineteen:
(view spoiler)[- I'm really confused. Last chapter/s Esther was talking about how much she didn't like Joan, and now she thought she "would always treasure Joan." How does that work? Especially since she then comments she is not likely to visit her.
- Her virginity and purity, which she was so obsessed with, is a burden "like a millstone around my neck". While I understand her feelings around it, particularly regarding Buddy, I feel that Esther is letting the actions of others dictate who she must be as a person - although she thinks she is taking control, she has completely changed her attitude - not because she wanted to, but because she feels she has to, in order to still have power and importance. Not sure if I'm reading that right, but it's feeling off to me.
- I don't like Irwin. He seems really disengaged and uncaring of Esther.
- I'm struggling to understand who Joan is through the book. Her relationship with Esther seems very unpredictable.
...Thinking of that, I'm reminded of Doreen, and wonder if we'll see her again - or if she ever tried to contact Esther after hearing about her.
- I was not expecting Joan to commit suicide. Particularly not after just seeing her helping Esther like that. Would Esther's condition have something to do with it, or was Joan just not doing as great as Esther saw, and was letting us see? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter Twenty:
(view spoiler)[- Esther's realisation/decision to have her memories apart of her seems very courageous. I frankly could not imagine being through that and not wanting to lose any memories of it as fast as I could. Still, I guess remembering it helps people grow past it.
- I'm glad that both Esther and Buddy understand they had nothing to do with Joan's death, and I'm also glad that Esther seems to have moved past Buddy.
- I'm not sure what that comment from Buddy was meant to mean, but it seems like he's saying that he, and not many other people, will want to marry Esther after shes been a patient in an asylum, which while may be true, is a little harsh and does seems like some sort of petty revenge like Esther thought.
- I'm glad Esther has left Irwin behind, though her comment about being "perfectly free" seems to indicate he is not the only one she is trying to leave behind forever.
- Has Joan's death helped her process her father's a bit?
- The imagery of rebirth seems very appropriate, and the "question marks" Esther can see ahead also seem very fitting.
- We never did get to see Doreen again, but I think that Esther's friendship with Doreen was too closely linked to how she started spiralling that it would take Esther a very long time to reach out to her again, if she ever does. (hide spoiler)]

Remarks:
(view spoiler)[I liked that the ending gave us a bit of closure on the direction Esther is going without having to directly tell or show where she ends up. I very much enjoyed reading this book, but I was a bit intense at times, and I certainly need to clear my head a bit after reading it. (hide spoiler)]

Same. It was an intense read and left quite a bit for the reader to ponder over. Still, Esther is not making it to my list of bold FMCs I'll treasure forever. It did however make me wish to reread Salinger. Maybe I'll do that soon to clear my head a little bit. All in all, I'd give this 3.5 stars.