Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Underground Man is hot on the trail of his associates because he wants to challenge Zverkov to a duel, but when he arrives at his destination (a brothel of some kind) he discovers they are gone. Instead he meets a kind and simple prostitute named Liza, and after engaging her services he strikes up an awkward conversation. She doesn't say much as he tells her a story about men dropping a coffin in the Haymarket, discusses the difficulties of burial practices in the Volkovo, and tells her that she too will die. At one point Underground Man senses a connection with Liza:

I turned to her with loathing; I was no longer sermonizing coldly. I myself began to feel what I was saying, and became excited. I already thirsted to expound my cherished "little ideas", lived out in my corner. Something in me suddenly lit up, some goal "appeared." (section VI)

When he suggests that they may both be equally "in the muck", Liza responds positively.

"Yes!" She agreed, sharply and hastily. I was even surprised by the hastiness of this "yes." So perhaps the same thought was wandering through her mind as she was peering at me just now? So she, too, is already capable of certain thoughts? ...."Devil take it, that's curious, it's -- akin," I reflected, almost rubbing my hands. "Now, how can I fail to get the better of such a young soul? ...."

It was the game that fascinated me most of all.

What is the game that Underground Man is playing with Liza? What is the "goal" that appears to him?

Thomas wrote: "What is the game that Underground Man is playing with Liza? What is the "goal" that appears to him?"

It seems to me to be a game of white knight syndrome.

It refers to people who:
1. Seek out partners or others in distress, often with trauma or low self-esteem.
2. Derive a sense of identity or moral worth from “saving” them.
3. Confuse control or superiority for love or care.
4. Become resentful, abusive, or will abandon the person when their help is not appreciated or when the person begins to recover and things become real.

Because there was only the semblance of love stemming from the reinforcement of their own superiority and good graces, what was once voluntary has now subjugated them into the burdensome responsibility of a real relationship, i.e., a loss of autonomy to which we know UM is averse to.

I don't know much about the game UM is playing. Reading David's comment here made me think of narcissists and their constant search for narcissistic supply. But I didn't get that vibe from the book.

One line that got to me, in free translation from the end of chapter IX. He says to Liza "I can't be... good! They won't let me..."
I think he is being truthful, but who is he referring to. Who is they? Any ideas?

Overall I liked it, but I have a feeling in a year I will not remember it (again). I don't know why, I feel like this should be read slowly, but I can't :D Maybe I don't have enough patience for it. I read a sentence that contradicts the previous one, but I don't stop to think because then it would take me a year to go through it. And as much as I love Dostoevsky, there are other books I want to read.

David wrote: "Thomas wrote: "What is the game that Underground Man is playing with Liza? What is the "goal" that appears to him?"

It seems to me to be a game of white knight syndrome.
..."

I think this is how he wants to appear to Liza, but instead of saving her he wants to control her, or in his words, "develop her, educate her." I'm not sure what this means though. Develop her how, and educate her in what?

For a moment he fantasizes that she would come to love him of her own accord, but this thought makes him feel "vile" and then he calls her a slut. (Sect. VIII)

Amazingly she comes back to him, and he makes his feelings about saving her clear:

"To save you!" I went on, jumping up from my chair and running back and forth in front of her, "to save you from what! But maybe I'm worse than you are... Power, power, that's what I wanted then, the game is what I wanted, I wanted to achieve your tears, your humiliation, your hysterics -- that's what I wanted then! But I couldn't stand it myself, because I'm trash... (Sect IX)

It seems like he wants to dominate her, and her vulnerability makes her an easy target. But why? Or does it not matter?

Xaph wrote: "One line that got to me, in free translation from the end of chapter IX. He says to Liza "I can't be... good! They won't let me..."
I think he is being truthful, but who is he referring to. Who is they? Any ideas?"

This is an interesting moment because Liza seems to have turned the table on him.

I was so used to thinking and imagining everything from books, and to picturing everything in the world to myself as I had devised it beforehand in my dreams, that at first I didn't even understand this strange circumstance. What occurred was this: Liza, whom I had insulted and crushed, understood far more than I imagined. She understood it all from what a woman, if she loves sincerely, always understands before anything else -- namely, that I myself was unhappy.

Liza tries to comfort him and throws her arms around him, which is when he says "I can't be... good! They won't let me..." He breaks down in hysterics. This is his moment of vulnerability, and he is ashamed of it.

What was I ashamed of? I don't know, but I was ashamed. It also came into my agitated head that the roles were now definitively reversed, that she was now the heroine, and I was the same crushed and humiliated creature as she had been before me that night...

My God! but can it be that I envied her then?

I don't know, to this day I cannot decide, and then, of course, I was even less able to understand it than now. For without power and tyranny over someone, I really cannot live .

My guess is that Underground Man is the one who needs to be saved, but he refuses because that would put him in a vulnerable position. He wants to be loved, but this is impossible for someone who won't have faith in another person. Having faith in someone means taking a chance, which is always a position of weakness.

I hated this book although I recognized that this may have been innovative in its time because Underground Man recognized his limitations and how self-destructive he was but could not help himself from hurting others as much as he hurt himself. This is one of those books, like the Gita, where the culture probably plays a big part of how one sees their self and how much mobility they may have within that culture. If this was the first time I've read such a thing, I maybe would have been impressed. However, Underground Man seems very representative of some people today who feel they are special yet insist on self sabotaging whatever they try to do.

Some stray notes on this last section.

In VI, there is some talk about taking the coffin out of a basement and how Liza "...in a year [will] be worth less... and in about seven years [will] reach the Haymarket and the basement." UM is forty years old when he writes this with the Wet Snow events happening when he was 24. I wonder how long it took him to reach the basement (become the UM)?
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And, wow does he project his own faults and future onto Liza. If I reread this I'd want to pay attention to how much of what he says is actually about himself. I expect all or most of it is.
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The reference to "wet snow" at the end of VII is I think what gives the section its title. It is a bookmark in his memory of a truth that he is admitting, that he pressed his address into her hand, and that act is a recognition of how desolate his own life is. This is his Wet Snow story is about being a loser; about how his "life was used up like an old rag" as he predicted hers would be. In VIII, he recognizes that his self-image as a hero is a lie and a mask.
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There is a metacommentary on narrative, books, and real life, which to me is the point of the whole thing. At the end of VI, Liza reflects not on all the cruel things he said, but instead on his way of thinking.

"It's as if you... as if it's from a book" she said, and again something like mockery suddenly sounded in her voice.

He is a first-person narrator and tells us he is writing a story. In X he says "this story... is no longer literature, but corrective punishment" and then tellingly "for we've reached a point where we regard real 'living life' almost as a labor, almost as a service and we all agree in ourselves that it's better from a book."

He, of course, continued writing, but when in the final line says "this is a good place to stop," he is confessing that none of that matters, only his brush with the soul-crushing reality that Liza is living and he is not. This feels extremely relevant to our time with streaming and social media absorbing our time and perhaps mutating our sense of identity.

Thomas wrote: "I think this is how he wants to appear to Liza, but instead of saving her he wants to control her, or in his words, "develop her, educate her." I'm not sure what this means though. Develop her how, and educate her in what?"

Up until his wet snow moment, he is all about feeling superior to others and getting back at others for perceived slights. He is constantly comparing himself. In his wet snow moment, he realized that he gave Liza his address and that meant he needed her or something from her; that he wasn't completely independent and superior.

When she comes to his apartment, he is embarrassed by his poverty. His idea of developing and educating her is a Pygmalion / Pretty Woman fantasy. He is still struggling to find a way he can feel superior. I read his cruelty toward her as him thrashing about with the conflicting reality he faces. His booksmart sense of superiority has not survived its encounter with Liza's street smart life. When she leaves behind the money he tries to give her she fully rejects him, his overtures, and his world view.

This is an origin story for his state as UM. If he is not superior, he is a basement dweller like the woman he saw buried in the rain. His new consciousness is not just about our general modern socioeconomic malaise but also about his own personal flaws and position in the scheme.