Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion

Did I recall someone saying they were going to reread all the Heinlein juveniles in publication order? Starting in November maybe?

I'm not sure where that post was.

Here's the publication order, though.

1 Rocket Ship Galileo (1947)
2 Space Cadet (1948)
3 Red Planet (1949)
4 Farmer in the Sky (1950)
5 Between Planets (1951)
6 The Rolling Stones (1952)
7 Starman Jones (1953)
8 The Star Beast (1954)
9 Tunnel in the Sky (1955)
10 Time for the Stars (1956)
11 Citizen of the Galaxy (1957)
12 Have Spacesuit - Will Travel (1958)

13. Starship Troopers (1959)
14. Podkayne of Mars (1963)

I would like to tag Starship Troopers (1959) on the end of this. It was supposed to be one, originally, but per Wikipedia, "rejected by Scribner's, published by Putnam's."

I always thought Podkayne of Mars (1963) was one of these. But I guess a girl protagonist wouldn't make it as one of these. And it's one of my least favorite Heinlein books anyway.

So I will wait for people to comment and then we can maybe pick a day of the month to start them on? Or do we want 2 a month.

If I don't set dates, I just won't read them, but I can set my own dates, I guess

Discuss

I am nearing the end of a casual personal reread of most of these over the last several years, very roughly in order of publication. I deliberately skipped Rocket Ship Galileo, because as I recall it’s untypical and not as good as the rest. I will read Citizen of the Galaxy soon, and then I’ll be done. I read the heck out of Starship Troopers in my early teens and I never want to read it again. I read Podkayne once and I don’t want to read it again.

I don’t think I’m tired of the rest of them, though. If there’s a buddy read of the 12 you have listed, in order, I’ll read most of them again, starting with Rocket Ship Galileo.

I agree that Rocket Ship Galileo is not as good as the others, but that may be in part because I never read it or Farmer in the Sky as a kid. I guess they were out of print.

Podkayne was just a bad character.

I think it was Allan who said he was doing this and starting soon. Oh Allan??

I’ve probably said it a hundred times in these chats but I really liked the Heinlein juveniles. There is less self indulgent Heinlein waffle in these and less politics, although his libertarian views are never far away.

Red Planet sticks in my mind as the best of the juveniles. Star Beast was interesting too.

I didn’t read them in order but the timeline strategy would be my strategy if I was re-reading them.

Here is an interesting flowchart of how some of these juveniles fit into his Future History.

https://www.sffchronicles.com/threads...

I believe we said we’d start in November and read one a month, but I’d up it to two per month if that’s ok with everyone else. They’re pretty short so it shouldn’t impinge too much on other reading.

I'm good with 2 a month. I am reading something I HATE right now, so I am wanting to read something good. So --

November 2025
1 Rocket Ship Galileo (1947)
2 Space Cadet (1948)

December 2025
3 Red Planet (1949)
4 Farmer in the Sky (1950)

January 2026
5 Between Planets (1951)
6 The Rolling Stones (1952)

February 2026
7 Starman Jones (1953)
8 The Star Beast (1954)

March 2026
9 Tunnel in the Sky (1955)
10 Time for the Stars (1956)

April 2026
11 Citizen of the Galaxy (1957)
12 Have Spacesuit - Will Travel (1958)

May 2026
Starship Troopers (1959)
Podkayne of Mars (1963) if anyone feels like it

Anyone should feel free to skip, or to yell "Slow down!" if needed. Whether we will slow down is something else :-)

I'm putting them on my personal calendar on the 1st of the month so I can get to them when I can, does that seem right to everyone?

Fine with me.

Fine with me too

Sounds like a fun fun set to read.... More fun than Danny Dunn and his antigravity paint!

Scott wrote: "Sounds like a fun fun set to read.... More fun than Danny Dunn and his antigravity paint!"

I have not read Danny Dunn, but I went and looked at it. Yes, I choose Heinlein.

P.S. Danny Dunn looks as if written for a younger set of kids than the Heinleins are

Read first chapter. 'let the rockets roar'

Kateblue wrote: "Scott wrote: "Sounds like a fun fun set to read.... More fun than Danny Dunn and his antigravity paint!"

I have not read Danny Dunn, but I went and looked at it. Yes, I choose Heinlein.

P.S. Dann..."

I read it when I was 9 years young.

Done with an audio read of Rocket Ship Galileo. Certainly of its time and a book in two halves, an adolescent adventure and (view spoiler)[a battle against leftover Nazis, which was pretty ludicrous (hide spoiler)].

Not at all typical of this group of books.

Allan wrote: "Done with an audio read of Rocket Ship Galileo. "

I like there development of critical thinking. I'm yet to re-read, but I quote the piece I'm talking about. It doesn't contain spoilers per se: (view spoiler)[“That’s what I really want! Pictures of the other side of the moon.”

“That’s what I thought.” Cargraves paused a moment and then added, “But how do you know you can get any?”

“But… Oh, I see what you mean. It’ll be dark on that side.”

“That’s not exactly what I meant, although that figures in, too, since the moon will be only about three days past ‘new moon,’ ‘new moon,’ that is, for the other side. We’ll try to time it to get all the pics you want on the trip back. But that isn’t what I mean: how do you know there is any back side to the moon? You’ve never seen it. Neither has any one else, for that matter.”

“But—there has to—I mean, you can see…”

“Did I hear you say there wasn’t any other side to the moon, Doc?” It was Ross, whose head had suddenly appeared beside Cargraves.

“Good morning, Ross. No, I did not say, there was no other side to the moon. I had asked Art to tell me what leads him to think there is one.”

Ross smiled. “Don’t let him pull your leg, Art. He’s just trying to rib you.”

Cargraves grinned wickedly. “Okay, Aristotle, you picked it. Suppose you try to prove to me that there is a far side to the moon.”

“It stands to reason.”

“What sort of reason? Have you ever been there? Ever seen it?”

“No, but—”

“Ever met anybody who’s ever seen it? Ever read any accounts by anybody who claimed to have seen it?”

“No, I haven’t, but I’m sure there is one.”

“Why?”

“Because I can see the front of it.”

“What does that prove? Isn’t your experience, up to now, limited to things you’ve seen on earth? For that matter I can name a thing you’ve seen on earth that hasn’t any back side.”

“Huh? What sort of a thing? What are you guys talking about?” It was Morrie this time, climbing up on the other side.

Art said, “Hi, Morrie. Want your seat?”

“No, thanks. I’ll just squat here for the time being.” He settled himself, feet dangling. “What’s the argument?”

“Doc,” Ross answered, “is trying to prove there isn’t any other side to the moon.”

“No, no, no,” Cargraves hastily denied. “And repeat ‘no.’ I was trying to get you to prove your assertion that there was one. I was saying that there was a phenomenon even on earth which hasn’t any back side, to nail down Ross’s argument from experience with other matters—even allowing that earth experience necessarily applies to the moon, which I don’t.”

“Whoops! Slow up! Take the last one first. Don’t natural laws apply anywhere in the universe?”

“Pure assumption, unproved.”

“But astronomers make predictions, eclipses and such, based on that assumption—and they work out.”

“You’ve got it backwards. The Chinese were predicting eclipses long before the theory of the invariability of natural law was popular. Anyhow, at the best, we notice certain limited similarities between events in the sky and events on earth. Which has nothing to do with the question of a back side of the moon which we’ve never seen and may not be there.”

“But we’ve seen a lot of it,” Morrie pointed out.

“I get you,” Cargraves agreed. “Between librations and such—the eccentricity of the moon’s orbit and its tilt, we get to peek a little way around the edges from time to time and see about 6o per cent of its surface—if the surface is globular. But I’m talking about that missing 40 per cent that we’ve never seen.”

“Oh,” said Ross, “you mean the side we can’t see might just be sliced off, like an apple with a piece out of it. Well, you may be right, but I’ll bet you six chocolate malts, payable when we get back, that you’re all wet.”

“Nope,” Cargraves answered, “this is a scientific discussion and betting is inappropriate. Besides, I might lose. But I did not mean anything of the slice-out-of-an-apple sort. I meant just what I said: no back side at all. The possibility that when we swing around the moon to look at the other side, we won’t find anything at all, nothing, just empty space—that when we try to look at the moon from behind it, there won’t be any moon to be seen—not from that position. I’m not asserting that that is what we will find; I’m asking you to prove that we will find anything.” (hide spoiler)]

I haven't read either for this month yet (I'm dropping back and reading Shroud right now) but they are up next.

But I totally agree with Allan's spoiler up in message 13. I think that's the reason I only ever read Rocket Ship Galileo once.

Oleksandr wrote: "I like their development of critical thinking..."

Yes, this part was enjoyable, how RAH sought to educate young readers about critical thinking, showing that there are implied assumptions to paths of thought. Since this is early in his career, he must've had to give in to the publishers desire for adventure in the 2nd half. It's very incongruous.

I’ve been reading Rocket Ship Galileo. It’s as readable as Heinlein’s work almost always was, at least in the earlier part of his career. I was interested to read Cargraves, the adult scientist/mentor to the younger heros, saying that “People still keep mixing up gunnery and rocketry.” Heinlein himself in his early work seems frequently to display a familiarity with ballistics that I’ve figured was related his experience as a naval officer (I believe a gunnery officer?).

The astrogation automation is pretty primitive, unless I’m misunderstanding the “three dimensional cam” that is involved. Of course this was meant to be set in the “near future” of the late ‘40s when it was published.

This first of the juveniles has some quite didactic discussions of basic rocket science delivered by the narrator, as well as others in the form of conversation among the characters (Cargraves and the boys.) There’s also the philosophical conversation mentioned earlier by Oleksandr, in which Cargraves asks them how they can be sure the other side of the moon exists, and I think one or two other shorter conversations of a similar sort. I’m currently reading the chapter entitled “One Atom War Too Many?” in which the characters speculate that maybe the lifeless, crater-covered nature of the lunar surface was the result of a war among the inhabitants. There’s quite a bit about atomic energy in the book: the boys work on their rocket near a dangerous old bomb test site in New Mexico, and the ship itself is atomic-powered, the technology of the engine briefly described.

I’m nearly 2/3 of the way through the book and the second part of the adventure story that I remember hasn’t kicked in. There’s been a bit of a lull as they look at the Earth, try to take pictures of it, deal with free fall, etc.

The adventure plot stuff at the end was ludicrous all right. It amounted to well under half of the book and seemed almost perfunctory, though it also seemed to have been worked out and written with reasonable care.

I’m glad I reread this but I still think it is easily the weakest of the 12 books listed in the first comment in this thread.

3 stars.

Stephen wrote: "I’m glad I reread this but I still think it is easily the weakest of the 12 books listed in the first comment in this thread."

I plan to tackle the re-read next week, but from what I recall I fully agree on the weakest - RAH is still trying to find his style for juveniles. All later are (1) further into the future and (2) with stronger young protagonists (also a bit older, I guess)

I have finished both of these for November and I inadvertently started Red Planet because it was the only Kindle I had at hand last night.

I love Space Cadet. Yes, it is nuts that there are no women/girls but that is the way it was back then. And I'm so old that when I originally read it in 7th grade or so, it never even occurred to me to wonder about the lack of female characters.

I actually thought it was published later in the "series" because it seems so much more accomplished and interesting than some of the later ones. (I'm looking at you particularly The Star Beast!)

I reread Space Cadet in August 2021 for the first time in many years and liked it a lot. I’ll read it again this month, probably.

I just reread The Star Beast a few weeks ago and liked it a lot as well.

Stephen wrote: "I’m glad I reread this but I still think it is easily the weakest of the 12 books listed in the first comment in this thread."

I think I need to change the list at the top to 14 books. Why? Because as I said in the first comment, I want to also read Podkayne and Starship Troopers as part of this BR series. If no one wants to join me, that's OK.

Editing comment 1 now.

So here is what we have

November
1 Rocket Ship Galileo (1947)
2 Space Cadet (1948)

December
3 Red Planet (1949)
4 Farmer in the Sky (1950)

January
5 Between Planets (1951)
6 The Rolling Stones (1952)

February
7 Starman Jones (1953)
8 The Star Beast (1954)

March
9 Tunnel in the Sky (1955)
10 Time for the Stars (1956)

April
11 Citizen of the Galaxy (1957)
12 Have Spacesuit - Will Travel (1958)

May
13. Starship Troopers (1959)
14. Podkayne of Mars (1963)

Let me know if anyone thinks this is wrong

This quote, from Space Cadet, had a big impact on me as a kid, I think. At least, I have always remembered it.

(view spoiler)[“People tend to fall into three psychological types, all differently motivated. There is the type, motivated by economic factors, money…and there is the type motivated by ‘face,’ or pride. This type is a spender, fighter, boaster, lover, sportsman, gambler; he has a will to power and an itch for glory. And there is the professional type, which claims to follow a code of ethics rather than simply seeking money or glory—priests and ministers, teachers, scientists, medical men, some artists and writers. The idea is that such a man believes that he is devoting his life to some purpose more important than his individual self.” (hide spoiler)]

Kateblue wrote: "This quote, from Space Cadet, had a big impact on me as a kid, I think. At least, I have always remembered it. “

Interesting quote. I don’t think it’s a spoiler.

I’m not going to start on this one till I finish Witches. That may take some time, with family coming in & Thanksgiving.

Witches and Space Cadet are both fun and easy to follow in the midst of chaos. I believe in you, Allan! You can do it!

I've started Rocket Ship Galileo, over 1/2 already. One of the things I haven't recalled was that Cargraves (the scientist) said that the USSR can be first in space. Also quite funny to read how he (and indirectly the author) tries to prove that a bunch of schoolboys are the best choice for him

Two questions regarding RSG:
1. How old are the boys? About 15? They can have driver and pilot licences already
2. When the story is happening (year)? I assumed right when it was published, plus say, 5 years... after all, rockets are used commercially there. Moreover, here is an interesting piece: Joe had not been invented by Cargraves; thousands of scientists, engineers, and mathematicians had contributed to his existence. His grandfathers had guided the Nazi V-2 rockets in the horror-haunted last days of World War II. His fathers had been developed for the deadly, ocean-spanning guided-missiles of the UN world police force. His brothers and sisters were found in every rocket ship, private and commercial, passenger-carrying or unmanned, that cleft the skies of earth.
Joe is a computer, so it is not 2 human generations from WW2, but much faster. However, the UN world police force sounds interesting... so maybe publication + 15 years?

The thing about the boys in this book is, back when this was written, you weren't legally an adult until you were 21. I think they are all 18 or close to it, and the whole "asking the parents who could actually forbid it" thing would never have occurred today. That's why maybe they seem younger. They were still legally kids. Also nerds, obviously, so not very worldly?

Also, US high school graduates are usually 18, even if they don't seem that old. I agree they seem younger

As far as when it's occurring, I think not too long after publication date because of the Nazi thing

Kateblue wrote: "Also, US high school graduates are usually 18, even if they don't seem that old. I agree they seem younger
"

At least one of them should be back to school and his dad says he can skip one semester but not more

Kateblue wrote: "As far as when it's occurring, I think not too long after publication date because of the Nazi thing"

From my initial reading 30+ years ago I thought (view spoiler)[they were from the last days of WW2, but no, they have the base on Earth: The Nazis were few in number, but they represented some of the top military, scientific, and technical brains from Hitler’s crumbled empire. They had escaped from Germany, established a remote mountain base, and there had been working ever since for the redemption of the Reich. The sergeant appeared not to know where the base was; Cargraves questioned him closely. Africa? South America? An island? But all that he could get out of him was that it was a long submarine trip from Germany.
Also they are recent arrivals (hide spoiler)]

I think 15 years after WW2 seems about right. Cargraves seems under 40.

The boys are about to graduate high school which would make them about 18, maybe a year younger.

RSG, not directly story-related, but hints of their world: much greater role of the UN -

UN world police, which had own guided-missiles.

the flag-waving on the Moon: On a short and slender staff the banner of the United Nations and the flag of the United States whipped to the top. Moreover, Cargrave uses UN laws as a captain of UN chartered ship

they stopped wars: “What d’you think the UN police is for? Wars are out. Everybody knows that.”

There is the UN Atomics Convention that regulates radioactive materials.

All A-bombs ae under UN control: The Nazis had atom bombs, but, as long as they were still holed up in their secret base on earth, they dared not act, for the UN had them, too, and in much greater quantity. They even test them: the glassy crater of the atom bomb test of 1951, the UN’s Doomsday Bomb. (note the year btw!)

All these are linked to the campaign after 1945 for the US to give its A-bombs to the UN. RAH supported the idea, as can be seen from his articles in the Expanded Universe. Alas 1949 USSR nuclear test stopped it

In later juveniles there is the Patrol, which seems to be a development of the idea of the UN world police.

Oleksandr wrote: "Also quite funny to read how he (and indirectly the author) tries to prove that a bunch of schoolboys are the best choice..."

I liked the amount of space given in the early chapters to the matter of the boys getting parental permission to participate in the project. Heinlein didn’t just handwave the issue away. Perhaps a way of making the story seem more realistic.

Stephen wrote: "the story seem more realistic"

True. At the same time, (view spoiler)[the fact that Nazis while hiding from all were able to produce a lot of A-bombs... enriching uranium is not only costly but detectable, see modern day Iran. And RAH should have been aware of it. I think he gave it some thought and used other weapons in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (hide spoiler)]

Oleksandr wrote: "Stephen wrote: "the story seem more realistic"

True. At the same time, [spoilers removed]"

A number of things about the story weren't very realistic but I think he put some effort into making the teenage protagonists somewhat credible and relatable.

My RSG review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I think your point that present day “juveniles” are unlikely to enjoy the book much is probably correct, though I don’t know any who’ve tried it.

Stephen wrote: "I think your point that present day “juveniles” are unlikely to enjoy the book much is probably correct, though I don’t know any who’ve tried it."

A few months back in another group, I discussed whether it is wise to make a Ukrainian translation of Sargasso of Space (Book One in the Solar Queen Series) - it was just announced and while I think Andre Norton will work even now (as some later RAH's juveniles) this one a bit more of its time

Oleksandr wrote: "At least one of them should be back to school and his dad says he can skip one semester but not more"

I know we are beyond this is the discussion now, but my two bits anyway -- I read that "skipping a semester" thing as meaning the boy (Ross?) could skip one semester of college

I think that’s right. Early in the book there’s a conversation in which they explain that the Galileo club is about to fold because they are the only members and they all expect to go off to college in the fall.

Kateblue wrote: "I know we are beyond this is the discussion now, but my two bits anyway -- I read that "skipping a semester" thing as meaning the boy (Ross?) could skip one semester of college
"

I also thought so. There is a problem that colleges are sometimes called schools and to quote the relevant part:
“You may do that—up till the time school opens.”
“Suppose they aren’t through by then? I wouldn’t want to walk out on them.”
“Very well. If necessary you can start school the second semester. That is my last concession.”

My review of Space Cadet is here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

There is a related short story, “The Long Watch”, which tells the story of Ezra Dahlquist, who is revered in the novel as one of heros who created the tradition of the Patrol. I read it in the collection The Green Hills of Earth when I was a kid, and I always thought it was written earlier than Space Cadet, but checking just now I see it was first published in 1949 in the American Legion magazine.

I intend to reread Space Cadet again soon but i have a couple of other things to get through first.

Started Space Cadet, about 25 pages in. Feels like it will move very quickly.