Play Book Tag discussion

Steven and I will be starting this in November. Anyone is welcome to join.

I was able to get a copy at the library. I can't swear I will have time for it, but it looks like an interesting read.

I may be able to join in the buddy read. If not right away, then some time later in the month.

Feel free to read when you can. I will be taking it slow and giving myself the whole month to finish it.

I am going to go ahead and start unless you want to push back a bit longer.

No, I am also good to start tonight. Was coming here to tell you.

Perfect.

I found a copy and will be joining in.

Some general terms I looked up about the Vietnamese participants:

ARVN = Army of the Republic of Vietnam = South Vietnamese Army

VC = Viet Cong = National Liberation Front (South Vietnamese communist insurgents and guerilla fighters that were sympathetic to the North)

NVA or PAVN = North Vietnamese Army = People’s Army of Vietnam = conventional military forces of North Vietnam

Thanks Joyce, I have been having a time trying to remember trying to remember who is who!

I have made it up to chapter about the middle of chapter 5

In the first few chapters, I noticed:

- Tracking “success” using body counts, which sounds like it carried over from previous wars - what an awful way to figure out if you're winning?!

- Someone wrote a propaganda song to tempt the North Vietnamese to desert during Lunar New Year (of course, this was the opposite of what happened)

Yes, the body-count thing was disgusting.

I am looking forward to learning more about Westmorland and, honestly, more about LBJ. I was only in 2nd grade when Kennedy was shot, and the Johnson administration is not one I have done any reading on and know much about. My mother was not political at all, openly anyway, but when she was watching anything dealing with LBJ, I remember her badmouthing him under her breath. Of course, when I got to high school, it was way too early, and unheard of to learn about Vietnam or Kennedy/Johnson.

Joy glad you are joining us. Some early thoughts – I like the way Bowden starts off with two personal stories, Chi Thi Mung, the young village-born woman who was a North Vietnamese cadre, and Frank Dozema, of about the same age, a US soldier from the small town of Shelbyville (a most perfect small-town name), Michigan. Bowden uses this technique throughout the book so far, weaving individual stories into the larger tapestry of the war. I feel this humanizes the war in way we can better touch their emotions: camaraderie, fear, loyalty to cause, love of family and nation, and faults.

To your comment Joy on body count – one the real dangers of this was an increase in civilian casualties. In a war where many of the combatants fighting for the North did not wear uniforms, a civilian death could easily be classified as an enemy killed in action. Furthermore, if success was judged on the number of dead, it was only natural that this was going to put pressure on commanders at all levels to achieve a higher count often to the point of impinging on their integrity. I do believe that coming out of the Vietnam War, the Army looked hard at this metric and recognized its flaws.

JoAnne, think we will see as we moved deeper in the book, just how bad Westmoreland’s judgement and sense of this fight was.

Steven wrote: "personal stories, Chi Thi Mung, the young village-born woman who was a North Vietnamese cadre, and Frank Dozema, of about the same age, a US soldier from the small town of Shelbyville (a most perfect small-town name), Michigan. Bowden uses this technique throughout the book so far, weaving individual stories into the larger tapestry of the war...."

I just started this and really agree about the personal stories. I'm just finishing up A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy and the history of the conflict becomes easier to understand when told from a personal perspective.

Looking forward to the book and everyone's thoughts.

Steven wrote: "To your comment Joy on body count – one the real dangers of this was an increase in civilian casualties. In a war where many of the combatants fighting for the North did not wear uniforms, a civilian death could easily be classified as an enemy killed in action. Furthermore, if success was judged on the number of dead, it was only natural that this was going to put pressure on commanders at all levels to achieve a higher count often to the point of impinging on their integrity. I do believe that coming out of the Vietnam War, the Army looked hard at this metric and recognized its flaws...."
Thanks, Steven. I think one of the reasons the war became so unpopular in America was the civilian casualties. The book is clear that some American soldiers shot anyone who looked Vietnamese, often killing innocent civilians because they "could be" Viet Cong. It became obvious after a while that the tactics that worked in other wars (especially WWII) were ineffective in Vietnam.

The book, at least at the tactical level, seems to be largely based on interviews, which is interesting because it relies on memory (which as you know is not always 100 pct. accurate and often contradicts others' memories). I also wonder how many of the South Vietnamese would be forthcoming for fear of possible reprisal. It's not a criticism, just something to bear in mind as we read further.

Agree. As far as I am aware, there is not a comprehensive and balanced account of the South Vietnamese military during the war. If there is one, I would love to read it one day.

Boys will be boys - (p.73) "Westin celebrated the New Year by shooting off some hand flares. Orders were 'no fireworks,' but you couldn't expect several hundred thousand men in a war zone, armed to the teeth with explosive devices to follow an order like that. From Westin's hilltop perch, he and his men watched a vast panorama or red and green tracers and the impossibly bright bluish light of illumination flares that descended slowly from small parachutes, turning day into night."

A bit of dark warzone humor? "We did trap an NVA in a bunker and told him to give up. He said he would fight to the death. He did."

Steven wrote: "From Westin's hilltop perch, he and his men watched a vast panorama or red and green tracers and the impossibly bright bluish light of illumination flares that descended slowly from small parachutes, turning day into night."

I talked to a Vietnam Vet years ago and he told me that he witnessed something similar to this.

Sometimes we forget how young these soldiers were, the majority of whom were between 18-21, just out of high school for a year or two. Let's imagine going to a high school graduation today, issuing all the graduating males powerful weapons, then sending them off to a foreign country of which they know nothing or little, and telling them it OK to use lethal force. Hard to picture for sure though the army today still consists mostly of young people but are all volunteers rather than a large percentage of draftees.

Both of my brother-in-laws (one being and Ex.) served in Vietnam, and they both developed PTSD. The brother-in-law that I still see joined the VFW many years after the war (I believe on the advise of his therapist) and still bonds weekly with his Vietnam "brothers". He rarely talks to anyone else about his time there anymore. When he first came into the family, he and I talked about it a few times, and I came away from those conversations with a whole new perspective on the war. He was only 19 when he entered the war. Hard to imagine, like you said Stephen.

I've been listening to Kristen Hannah's The Women for my F2F book clubs (two groups doing this in Nov and Dec). Hubby agreed to let me listen while we were in the car one day and I prepped him before hand so he wouldn't be caught unawares. I already knew it would be a tough read for me because of his experiences that he's related to me.

Anyway. He listened to those few minutes and said, "I think I'd like to read this book." He hasn't read a book in at least a year. Has complained that he can't concentrate or follow the plot. SO, I handed over the text copy I had (I always borrow both the text and the audio from the library). He flew through it. Said more than once, "I can't put this down!"

Now he is (not so) patiently waiting for me to finish listening to it so we can talk about it.

I did not previously know that Hue was the single bloodiest battle of the Vietnam War. General Westmoreland is obviously going to be much criticized in this book for denying, minimizing, and obfuscating.

BC, make sure to let us know about your discussion with your husband once you finish The Women.

Regarding my hubby and me reading The Women. Really brought up a lot of memories for him and we had quite the discussion. There were two points we didn't feel were accurate ... small little things, but they stood out to us.

We both disliked one of the plot twists A LOT. Thought it was unnecessary.

He did not want to come to my F2F book club meeting last night, but he sent me there with notes ... and pictures.

I have one more chapter to go in Part 3.

Chapter 5 - Idiotic Mission

I had to bold the title of the chapter because it is unfortunate how true it is. What in the name of ----, were these Generals thinking? One paragraph really made me stop to breathe...

...corpsman John Higgins encountered his first sucking chest wound. The marine he stopped to help had a hole on the left side of his chest...he felt for an exit wound on his back, There was none. He took out his C-ration packs, used the cellophane wrapper. smeared it with antibiotic ointment, pressed it over the chest hole.

Was the medic taught this, or was he just thinking on his feet? If the first, think about being in that instruction class and how it must have affected the people in it. If it is the prior, It brings me back full circle to Steven's comment about how young they were. And to have such a calm and steady reaction at that age, it is stunning to me.

Catherine Leroy, a freelance French photographer, enters the story in chapter 5. I read a book on her in the beginning of the year You Don't Belong Here: How Three Women Rewrote the Story of War-very good, 4 stars from me.

Book Concierge wrote: "Regarding my hubby and me reading The Women. Really brought up a lot of memories for him and we had quite the discussion. There were two points we didn't feel were accurate ... sma..."
Glad you were able to have a good conversation about The Women with your husband. I agree that the twist was unnecessary. I'm sure there are always bound to be a few inaccuracies, but I remember reading that she obtained input from people who had been there.

Joanne wrote: "Was the medic taught this, or was he just thinking on his feet? If the first, think about being in that instruction class and how it must have affected the people in it. If it is the prior, It brings me back full circle to Steven's comment about how young they were. And to have such a calm and steady reaction at that age, it is stunning to me..."
I imagine they are taught certain principles but are left to their own devices in battle situations. I cannot even imagine being that young and having to make those types of decisions.

Yes, for a what is called a "a sucking chest wound" (penetration of the lung where one can hear the air escaping, the field expedient measures are to seal the wound (cigarette packet wrapper will work), bandage it, then roll the wounded soldier on his wounded lung side so that the nonwounded lung does not also fill with blood. Probably too much information here - sorry.

LoL, not too much information, Steven. A great contribution to the discussion!

As I move deeper into the book, I can understand the intelligence failures that did not quickly identify the North Vietnamese offensive with its focus on Hue, but what is inexcusable is the high command's, from Westmoreland on down, failure to react to, or believe in, the reports from the front once the fighting had begun. This failure resulted in a piecemeal approach to the retaking of the city and certainly cost lives, both civilian and military.

That was awful, reading it as it happened. Gravel, I think his name was, was too afraid to disobey an order and just kept at it. He was just too young to be leading.

Yes, Westmoreland apparently believed his own rhetoric that we were somehow "winning" the war. Maybe it was denial? Hubris? I don't know but it seems like they could have checked into it more thoroughly to understand what was happening. It always reminds me that faulty communications was a normal part of life back then. It would be much easier now to determine the accuracy of the reports. I am also struck by the horrific casualties involved in hand-to-hand, building to building combat in urban warfare.

Sometimes I wonder why an author would include something that makes one ponder why, and where did he get it, "One explosion lifted Thoms into the air in a ball of flame. He and several of his men landed hard in the slope of the rubble. Thoms has several pieces of shrapnel in him, and the flames burned off his shirt and the cover of his helmet. The blast also had torn his trouser leg from crotch to the top of his boot. Since few marines wore underwear, Thoms was a startling sight." (p.436) Do we think that most Marines did not wear underwear? Hmmm.

I am guessing it must have come from the interviews.

Though my brother-in-law was Army, not Marine, the story I got from him is that there were so few times to do laundry a lot of servicemen just said The hell with it.