The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Pride and Prejudice
Week 2: Volume I, Chapters 15-23
Discussion Questions

1) Mr. Collins’s proposal to Elizabeth is one of the most famous scenes in English literature. How does Austen use humor and irony here? What does the proposal reveal about Mr. Collins—and about Elizabeth?

2) Charlotte Lucas accepts Mr. Collins soon afterward. Do you think her decision is practical, cynical, or wise? How do you personally respond to Charlotte’s reasoning?

3) How does Elizabeth’s attitude toward marriage differ from Charlotte’s? What do their choices reveal about the limited options for women at the time?

4) We meet Mr. Wickham in these chapters—how does Austen make him seem charming and trustworthy? What techniques does she use to bias our perception of him?

5) What do these chapters show us about Mr. Darcy’s character beneath his pride? Do you notice any moments where his behavior complicates Elizabeth’s first impression of him?

6) How does Mrs. Bennet’s behavior at the ball affect her daughters’ prospects? Is Austen being cruel in her depiction of her, or sympathetic?

7) How do Elizabeth’s views of love and marriage contrast with those of her mother, her sister Jane, and Charlotte?

We get to know 2 male characters - Collins and Wickham. I had forgotten that Wickham was introduced so early in the book. Elizabeth has an interesting attitude to Wickham, she is attracted to him, he is fun, she likes his attention, but she's not head over heels for him. In fact, it seems that she could never be that way for anyone.

I think the story of Charlotte Lucas is fascinating. She makes a practical decision. She is well over the age of being an "old maid", which means she would take care of her parents and then live with a sibling and their family as unpaid help. Mr. Collins is boring, self-important, snobbish, and awkward - BUT he doesn't drink, gamble, or womanize, and he would never beat his wife. He has a secure position with a comfortable house, and will inherit Longbourn. He has no interfering relatives, though Lady Catherine is a bit like the nightmare mother-in-law. Still, this way Charlotte can have children, and her husband won't skimp on the home or her wardrobe, as he wants to present a wife worthy of Lady Catherine. And fortunately, Collins has a couple of interests such as gardening that keep him out of the way. In an era where many marriages were business propositions, with women having little say, Charlotte could have done a lot worse. Elizabeth could never make that tradeoff, but Charlotte has a different personality.

Gem wrote: "1) Mr. Collins’s proposal to Elizabeth is one of the most famous scenes in English literature. How does Austen use humor a..."

Elizabeth remains so courteous! Courteous and sincere. Even after he grossly insults her by saying "...you should take it into further consideration that, in spite of your manifold attractions, it is by no means certain that another offer of marriage may ever be made you. Your portion is unhappily so small, that it will in all likelihood undo the effects of your loveliness and amiable qualifications." When he refuses to hear her, she "immediately and in silence withdrew" and thinks that her only recourse is to get her father to help her. She handled this so patiently and intelligently, evidence that she is not as impulsive and self-willed as others see her.

A great illustration from the edition on gutenberg.

Robin P wrote: "I think the story of Charlotte Lucas is fascinating. ..."

I completely agree. And besides the points in Mr. Collins' favour that you mention, I think it's significant to Charlotte that he will inherit Longbourn. There is a rivalry between the two families, and the Lucas family position will be greatly enhanced by their daughter becoming mistress of Longbourn. It is no accident that Mr. Collins turns his ardour towards Charlotte. "but Charlotte’s kindness extended farther than Elizabeth had any conception of:—its object was nothing less than to secure her from any return of Mr. Collins’s addresses, by engaging them towards herself. Such was Miss Lucas’s scheme; " She literally schemes.

Robin P wrote: "I think the story of Charlotte Lucas is fascinating."

That's a great synopsis of Charlotte Lucas. I thought about it briefly, but not in that much detail. It seems she made a good decision, for herself and for Collins for that matter.

Ginny wrote: "Elizabeth remains so courteous! Courteous and sincere. Even after he grossly insults her by saying "...you should take it into further consideration that, in spite of your manifold attractions, it is by no means certain that another offer of marriage may ever be made you. Your portion is unhappily so small, that it will in all likelihood undo the effects of your loveliness and amiable qualifications."

His attitude ticked me off. It's almost like he thinks he's God's gift to her, the best she'll ever receive. He was belittling her and couldn't see it.

Gem wrote: "Ginny wrote: "Elizabeth remains so courteous! Courteous and sincere. Even after he grossly insults her by saying "...you should take it into further consideration that, in spite of your manifold at..."

It's almost like he thinks he's God's gift to her, the best she'll ever receive. He was belittling her and couldn't see it.

Hold on to that thought. We will soon see (maybe next week?) another proposal that isn't all that different in tone.

Mr. Collins is a clergyman with a “living” in the control of Lady Catherine. When he moves to his new home, whenever that is, on inheriting, he will probably engage someone to take over the parish duties while retaining the income, as was customary. Given the likely quality of his advice and sermons, the congregation may find his absentee status an improvement.

Ian wrote: "Mr. Collins is a clergyman with a “living” in the control of Lady Catherine. When he moves to his new home, whenever that is, on inheriting, he will probably engage someone to take over the parish ..."

Good point, his poor parishioners have to listen to him every week.

Speaking of Charlotte and her marriage, the question about marrying for convenience or to please one’s parents versus marrying for love was part of a whole complex societal debate at the time. As recently as a generation before, English girls of the Bennet class were expected to obey their parents’ wishes; marrying for love was mostly seen as something the lower classes did. Among the aristocracy, it was an elaborate negotiation of connections and power and enhancing one’s breeding by making alliances with the right families.

The ideas filtering out from France had a big impact on Enlightenment thought on the subject, and attitudes were rapidly softening though the old assumptions hung on. Rousseau’s belief that children should be raised in a loving environment to be individuals had a major impact, and enlightened British parents increasingly gave their offspring latitude to make their own choice in marriage—though they still hoped affection would be tempered by prudence.

For women, the debate centered on questions of duty versus love—love being defined less as desire than as the ability to respect and have affection for one’s spouse. Jane Austen would have considered that Charlotte did a rather wicked thing by marrying a man she could not respect (though by virtue of his position in life he was “respectable”). That was taking duty too far. Thinkers of the period opined that when both individuals approached marriage thinking of how it could benefit them, they paid for that selfishness with unhappiness and alienation.

So in setting up the contrast between Elizabeth’s and Charlotte’s views on matrimony, Austen is bringing into the concrete world a theoretical debate about marriage. It’s remarkable that she is able to make it sound as natural as she does, not like a sententious debate in a conduct book.

Regarding the whole love-as-not-desire thing, marriage was generally regarded as a way of penning the unruliness of desire into an acceptable channel. (view spoiler)[We see later on some of the damage unruly desire can do. (hide spoiler)]

On the subject of matrimony as on many others, Austen is so succinct in her opinions. Many modern writers belabor a point or spend a lot of words on the characters' feelings and motivation.

Gem wrote: "4) We meet Mr. Wickham in these chapters—how does Austen make him seem charming and trustworthy? What techniques does she use to bias our perception of him?..."

Despite the innumerable times I have read this novel, I never before noticed the fact that Wickham tells Elizabeth the most intimate details of his life story in their very first conversation! They have barely met. He is very physically attractive. "The officers of the ——shire were in general a very creditable, gentlemanlike set and the best of them were of the present party; but Mr, Wickham was as far beyond them all in person, countenance, air, and walk, as they were superior to the broad-faced stuffy uncle Philips, breathing port wine, who followed them into the room."


But still, surely he should have been less forward, and she should have been put off by his confidences.

I agree with what others have said about Charlotte's decision to accept the irritating, ignorant, and condescending Mr. Collins: She is making a practical decision for her future, colored by her decision to one day be mistress of Longbourn. Whether is worth having to put up with Lady Catherine is questionable, and certainly Elizabeth Bennett would never have accepted such a situation. Mr. Wickham arouses all my suspicions and makes me think there are better sides to Mr. Darcy's character than we have seen. Mr. Wickham is all too eager to tell Elizabeth derogatory things about Mr. Darcy, even though Elizabeth didn't directly ask him, while Mr. Darcy doesn't rush to tell her anything (although his friends take up his cause). As for Mr. Bingley, I'm hopeful that he will return to propose to Jane, but not sure at all. It is reasonable that he might be attracted to Jane but have a commitment to Darcy's sister.

I always thought that Mary would have been Mr collins” best option for wife. Charlotte made a very practical decision given her age and apparent lack of other suitors, I never had the sense she did it to become mistress of Longbourn particularly.

I've always thought Mary wasn't treated fairly by Austen, as somebody who'd rather read than go to a ball, I can relate to her. Austen herself was a big reader, though we have to assume her personality and wit were more like Elizabeth's.

I have been thinking about the early chapters in terms ultimately derived from Erving Goffman’s The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life.

Bingley is pretty good at it, albeit backed by a reputation for money.
Darcy, backed by both money and status, is either very bad at it, or has never seen the need for controlling how he appears to others.
Mr. Collins (who desperately needs a place until he inherits) is ludicrously bad at it, except where Lady Catherine is concerned.
Wickham has learned to be very good at it.

Ian wrote: "Darcy, backed by both money and status, is either very bad at it, or has never seen the need for controlling how he appears to others."

ah, but the (apparent) neglect of "face" is itself a way of displaying superiority of social status - you are the one who need not care, or rather: you appear as if you did not care. (Goffman would deny that there is anyone who really need not care about self-presentation)

One of the TV productions (not the Colin Firth one) really made it clear that Darcy was shy/introverted (maybe today he would be diagnosed as "on the spectrum" since he's not good at understanding how he comes across to others, and doesn't see why he should care about that.) Later, when he gets a chance to talk about something that interests him (fishing) with another man, he is suddenly engaged. Wickham is more on the narcissism scale, great at charming people for his own ends. (view spoiler)[He wants people to like him and when his motives are revealed, he takes off for a new place/group/occupation. (hide spoiler)]

Frances wrote: "Charlotte made a very practical decision given her age and apparent lack of other suitors, I never had the sense she did it to become mistress of Longbourn particularly...."

Perhaps not, but it certainly was paramount for all her family. "Lady Lucas began directly to calculate, with more interest than the matter had ever excited before, how many years longer Mr. Bennet was likely to live; and Sir William gave it as his decided opinion, that whenever Mr. Collins should be in possession of the Longbourn estate, it would be highly expedient that both he and his wife should make their appearance at St. James’s."

Robin P wrote: "I've always thought Mary wasn't treated fairly by Austen, as somebody who'd rather read than go to a ball, I can relate to her. Austen herself was a big reader, though we have to assume her persona..."

I agree. As the middle sister, she doesn't have a buddy in the family. We really hear very little of her in her own words. I have requested from the library The Other Bennet Sister. The reviews are very good. Much better than is usual for fan fiction, I believe.

From the little we are given about Mary, I have always supposed she was conscious of being outshone by all her sisters in looks, that her speech at parties was sententious rather than bright or charming, and that she in any case may have found dancing and cards too frivolous to master. If most of that is accurate, balls must have been a mixture of humiliation and tedium for her.

The antics of Mrs. Bennet after Elizas’s ‘no’ were deplorable. She was treating her own daughter like one of their cattle, with no thoughts about her personal needs. Being ill by design and her unmotherly treatment of Eliza should have been nipped in the bud by Mr. Bennet, who showed a dereliction of duty by letting it continue.

However, the proposals of Collins, the disappearance of Bingley and the attentions of Wickham really showed how much growing up young Eliza had to do. I won’t call her Elizabeth until she deserves it. That is when she gains the maturity to understand the men (and women) around her a little bit more.

Of course she was right to turn down Mr. Collins’ proposal but to be disgusted by her friend Charlotte’s acceptance of him showed a lack of empathy and understanding. Although she wouldn’t have admitted it, it seemed to me that she felt slighted by her friend taking a man she had rejected.

Eliza’s attitude towards Jane’s disappointment when Bingley left for London could have been so much more helpful. All of Eliza’s favourable impressions of Bingley were thrown out of the window, based on her idea that he was a mouse in his sisters’ and Darcy’s cage. Her small world could not recognise that patience might be required and that declaring that all was finished was both hurtful and premature.

And then she was completely taken in by the wonderful Wickham, whose carefully designed conversation informed her of everything she wanted to hear about Darcy and even more about Wickham himself. Wickham, with the experience of many campaigns, would see Eliza and the Bennets as yet another one. Of course Darcy would be one of his most effective weapons.

Eliza couldn’t distinguish between the manufactured and ‘especially polished that morning’ charm of Wickham and the natural charm of Bingley. Having a fairly limited experience of the world, it was entirely understandable that Wickham’s exquisite exterior seemed something exceptional. She might not fall in love with him, but to have someone like Eliza singing your praises in such a small community would be extremely helpful to (in Eliza’s eyes) such a magnificent specimen of manhood.

There is no way Wickham would seriously consider marrying any of the Bennets, since they have little money and the property would go to Collins. He recognizes in Elizabeth a kindred satirical spirit, the understanding that most of society's practices are a kind of game. It's also hard to imagine Elizabeth marrying a soldier. She isn't blinded by their uniforms the way her younger sisters are, and that life wouldn't appeal to her.

The sister who really gets short shrift is Kitty. She is the follower of the younger Lydia and we know nothing else about her. Of course there are modern retellings that focus on the other sisters, as well as on Darcy's sister.

Trev wrote: "......how much growing up young Eliza had to do. I won’t call her Elizabeth until she deserves it. That is when she gains the maturity to understand the men (and women) around her a little bit more. ..."

You are not alone in your irritation with Elizabeth Bennet. This, from a contemporary review:

1814—Mary Russell Mitford, review of Pride and Prejudice: It is impossible not to feel in every line of Pride and Prejudice, in every word of “Elizabeth,” the entire want of taste which could produce so pert, so worldly a heroine (view spoiler)[as the beloved of such a man as Darcy. Wickham is equally bad. Oh! they were just fit for each other, and I cannot forgive that delightful Darcy for parting them. Darcy should have married Jane. (hide spoiler)]

I see you must be team Caroline Bingley in your opinion of Elizabeth Bennet, because Miss Bingley is the only person who calls Elizabeth "Eliza".

“Miss Eliza Bennet,” said Miss Bingley, “despises cards. She is a great reader, and has no pleasure in anything else.”

“Eliza Bennet,” said Miss Bingley, when the door was closed on her, “is one of those young ladies who seek to recommend themselves to the other sex by undervaluing their own; and with many men, I daresay, it succeeds; but, in my opinion, it is a paltry device, a very mean art.”

“Miss Eliza Bennet, let me persuade you to follow my example, and take a turn about the room. I assure you it is very refreshing after sitting so long in one attitude.”

I always remember Miss Bingley as having a bigger presence in this story that she does. She basically exists as a plot device to reveal, and perhaps even influence, Mr. Darcy's feelings for Elizabeth, but she is very strong and memorable in that role. I wonder if Mr. Bingley is a younger brother, as he is so different from his sisters. This is a fun image of Caroline.



The illustration is by Ireen Chau. https://ireenchau.wixsite.com/website...

Robin P wrote: "There is no way Wickham would seriously consider marrying any of the Bennets"

Wickham's interest in Lizzie is indeed something that puzzles me every time. He cannot know if she is a "kindred spirit" at first sight, can he? Nor is Lizzie a good entry point to the locaal society, because she is too outspoken and liberal to be the paragon of a young lady. So, mystery still not solved ... except, of course, that the plot demands it.

sabagrey wrote: "Robin P wrote: "There is no way Wickham would seriously consider marrying any of the Bennets"

Wickham's interest in Lizzie is indeed something that puzzles me every time. He cannot know if she is ..."

I doubt Wickham has marriage on his mind when he arrives in the backwater of Meryton; he’s flirting, and he sees in Elizabeth Bennet someone prepared to dally and flatter him with her admiration. He seems like a person more governed by impulse than long-term calculation.

Ginny wrote: "Much better than is usual for fan fiction, I believe."

I'll have to look for that one. I really enjoyed Longbourn which tells the P&P story from the servants' perspective.

I think that Elizabeth was clearly her father's favourite, even over Jane, likely for her wit and good humour, and I think that shows in her personality. Girls who grow up secure in the love of their father are often strong and "saucy" because they've been given the liberty and even encouragement to be so at home. So Elizabeth both feels able to choose for love and is strong enough to tease and flirt gently with the men that she meets.

Ginny wrote: ". I see you must be team Caroline Bingley in your opinion of Elizabeth Bennet, because Miss Bingley is the only person who calls Elizabeth "Eliza".."

‘Buzzing’ Miss Bingley, (fluttering around Darcy like an irritating insect) might use the term ‘Eliza’ in a somewhat derogatory way, but my use of the name is merely to identify an intermediate stage in her development between the child that is Lizzie and the woman that is Elizabeth.

Her field scampering antics and eyebrow raising outbursts have placed her into a niche position that the likes of Darcy are not used to witnessing. She has certainly grabbed his attention and also provided Wickham with an (possibly amorous) adventure to mount.

She is almost JA’s Eliza Dolittle in reverse, where certain inward qualities are in need of development rather than those exterior accomplishments that Dr. Dolittle could teach the other Eliza using rote learning. This Eliza needs to assimilate more complex learning and life experiences herself before the full bloom Elizabeth emerges.

As for marriage, well Eliza herself has admitted already that she seems incapable of that kind of love and for her that kind of love is an essential requirement. Her boisterous encounters are more like emotional and intellectual wrestling or boxing in the rough and tumble of her adolescence. I agree with Frances that she takes after her dad which is both a good thing and a bad thing. Too much scepticism regarding Bingley, too little perception regarding Wickham but nevertheless punching above her weight even amongst the big boys.

I think that Elizabeth is clearly her father’s favorite. Jane is early on described as “candid,” which a good edition will tell you did not then refer to frankness but to not looking to find fault (among other things). Mr. Bennett is quick to see the faults and failings of others, and would appreciate Elizabeth for her sometimes sharp perceptions. A trait which may well be in imitation of him to begin with, just as Mary tries to emulate his studiousness, but can’t quite carry it off.

I think that “punching above her weight” is a good description.

Jane is repeatedly shown as being too unwilling to find fault, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. Elizabeth has quick judgments of people and finds it hard to change them (the prejudice of the title.) In this way she is like Emma Woodhouse, sure she is right about everything. This gives her room to learn and grow, while the other sisters have no arc of development - Jane stays sweet, Mary stays pedantic, Lydia stays obstreperous, and Kitty stays mostly invisible.

Trev wrote: "Too much scepticism regarding Bingley, too little perception regarding Wickham but nevertheless punching above her weight even amongst the big boys...."

I agree about Wickham. Perhaps he is attractive to her because he confides his whole life story on their first encounter. Could you provide a few quotes to illustrate what you mean by "punching above her weight even amongst the big boys"?

Ginny wrote: ".. Could you provide a few quotes to illustrate what you mean by "punching above her weight even amongst the big boys"?."
"

Here are a couple that stood out for me, illustrating not just what she says but something about her presence and personality.

1. Mr. Collins - Chapter 19 - She floors him with the combination of an uppercut of nonchalant sewing whilst he is proposing, followed by a stinging right hook full in the face of his arrogance when he condescends to assume she will accept him when he asks again.



’ Upon my word, sir,' cried Elizabeth, 'your hope is rather an extraordinary one after my declaration. I do assure you that I am not one of those young ladies (if such young ladies there are) who are so daring as to risk their happiness on the chance of being asked a second time. I am perfectly serious in my refusal. You could not make me happy, and I am convinced that I am the last woman in the world who would make you so.’

2. Mr. Darcy - Boldly intervening with a flurry of jabs during Darcy’s banter with Bingley in chapter 9 , including this one……

‘You appear to me, Mr. Darcy, to allow nothing for the influence of friendship and affection. A regard for the requester would often make one readily yield to a request without waiting for arguments to reason one into it. I am not particularly speaking of such a case as you have supposed about Mr. Bingley. We may as well wait, perhaps, till the circumstance occurs before we discuss the discretion of his behaviour thereupon. But in general and ordinary cases between friend and friend, where one of them is desired by the other to change a resolution of no very great moment, should you think ill of that person for complying with the desire, without waiting to be argued into it?'

before stepping back out of his reach to the piano with Miss Bingley.

‘Elizabeth, having rather expected to affront him, was amazed at his gallantry; but there was a mixture of sweetness and archness in her manner which made it difficult for her to affront anybody, and Darcy had never been so bewitched by any woman as he was by her. He really believed that, were it not for the inferiority of her connexions, he should be in some danger.’

Collins' assuming a woman who says no is just being modest is a link to the discussion between Jane and Charlotte about how much a woman should show her interest in a man. She can't be too forward, but if she is too reticent, it might discourage him. (view spoiler)[ This is what Bingley thinks, or what Darcy makes him think and it drives him away (hide spoiler)].

Elizabeth isn't interested in playing games like that.

I wonder what would have happened if Collins showed up before Bingley and proposed to Jane. Would Jane have been too nice to turn him down, and sacrifice herself for the good of her family?

There is a contemporary comment above about how Jane should have married Darcy. He would be nice to her but bored. However, in real life, I think the Darcys do marry the Janes. They know they are superior and like a wife who lets them have that position always. From my many years of reading romances, historical and modern, I think the fantasy women find in them is not that they will find a man to rescue them, but that they will find a man strong enough to stand up to them. If anything, this would have been more true in Austen's time, when women were shut out of public life and higher education. Men didn't expect, or often didn't want, a wife who would discuss intellectual topics or question their ideas.

Robin P wrote: "Collins' assuming a woman who says no is just being modest is a link to the discussion between Jane and Charlotte about how much a woman should show her interest in a man. She can't be too forward,..."

Your comments about marriage dynamics remind me of the Middletons in Sense and Sensibility. (view spoiler)[Lady Middleton is a bit Janelike—at least the sort of woman considered an ubexceptionable match—but Sir John is the only one with agency. His wife’s sphere is entirely bounded by the children and managing the household. (hide spoiler)] If Jane had married a Darcy, that would have been her role.

Trev wrote: "Ginny wrote: ".. Could you provide a few quotes to illustrate what you mean by "punching above her weight even amongst the big boys"?."
"

Here are a couple that stood out for me, illustrating not ..."

Thank you, Trev, for bringing the funny as always! Speaking of uppercuts, that phrase in the last line you quote, “were it not for the inferiority of her connexions,” is Jane Austen delivering a TKO to Darcy.

Abigail wrote: "Speaking of uppercuts, that phrase in the last line you quote, “were it not for the inferiority of her connexions,” is Jane Austen delivering a TKO to Darcy."
"

Definitely.

Darcy was conspicuous by his absence in that last section, probably nursing his emotional cuts and bruises.