The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Thought I would help Silver by posting this thread. I'm sure she will be out here shortly to continue the discussion. In the meantime, feel free to post your comments.

That was nice, Deborah! I’m fairly far along, but since my edition does not have chapter numbers (except for a few near the beginning—what was the copy editor thinking??), I’ll wait to comment till I see what others are talking about.

A few things really made me smile. The description of standing a group of goats on two feet and they turn into men. What a wonderful description of group think. Every man planning on killing themselves! I kept thinking then what happens to Oxford with no students.

The ghost of Chopin and George Sand was enjoyable as well. I love Sand's work and knew about their affair so recognized her immediately.

What magical power does Zuleika have? Not a traditional beauty, not particularly nice due to her self-centeredness, not a great magician. She seems such a confused soul to me.

Still rather slow going for me for the most part.

Abigail, the chapters take us through the spirit visiting the chambers of Oxford seeing the men writing various end of life documents. Hope this helps.

Deborah wrote: "A few things really made me smile. The description of standing a group of goats on two feet and they turn into men. What a wonderful description of group think. Every man planning on killing themse...

The ghost of Chopin and George Sand was enjoyable as well. I love Sand's work and knew about their affair so recognized her immediately..."

I enjoyed the same things, Beerbohm's writing is really visual, undoubtedly a bonus effect due to his artist's eye.

Thank you, Deborah! I guess I’m in about the right place; just read the chapter with the telegram (won’t say more).

We are not quite there yet.

The bit with the pearls is interesting and keeps turning up. I chuckled over her sneaky slight of hand and the way she handed over her earrings.

I also gave been wondering what will happen to Oxford if all it's men destroy themselves over mass infatuation. Chopin and George Sand! Yes, delightful! Also the author's astral projection over Oxford, visiting his old rooms and flitting over the landscape. Beerbohm is pulling out all the stops!

Although it was a bit longwinded, it's interesting that he put in that chapter to "explain" how he can know what everyone is doing and thinking thanks to divine intervention.

Deborah wrote: "Thought I would help Silver by posting this thread. I'm sure she will be out here shortly to continue the discussion. In the meantime, feel free to post your comments."

Thank you, I don't know what happened but somehow I totally blanked out on this section and kept thinking the next section didn't start until today (the 16th) which I will post shortly.

I have to admit I was starting to feel a bit like Elaine in Seinfeld when she watched The English Pataint. I was starting to yell at the book "just die already" I did feel that the whole preparing for the Duke's suicide drug on a bit.

Then I was surprised by his sudden change of heart. What made the Duke suddenly convinced that Zuleika loved him? The fact that she gave him her eraings?

One of my favorite scenes was Zuleika dumping the water on the Duke's head.

Abigail wrote: "That was nice, Deborah! I’m fairly far along, but since my edition does not have chapter numbers (except for a few near the beginning—what was the copy editor thinking??), I’ll wait to comment till..."

Mine doesn't have chapter headings, either, but the chapters do begin with a word in capital letters, so I can find them if I look.

The Gutenberg edition does have chapters, and it has a table of contents so even if you don't like reading o the computer you can go quickly to any chapter and see where it starts. It might be possible in not too much time to use the Gutenberg text to mark the chapters in your book.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1845/1...

I got confused by his decision suddenly to enter the text as first person narrator. That continues through these chapters; will it continue further? Later episodes will tell!

I took particular note of "The lady after whom I have named this book is alive, and well known to some of you personally, to all of you by repute." That made it sound as though it was a roman a clef, but if he really meant this, I don't know to what person he was alluding. I suspect it's just that you know this type, but maybe he did have a particular woman in mind.

Silver wrote: "I have to admit I was starting to feel a bit like Elaine in Seinfeld when she watched The English Pataint. I was starting to yell at the book "just die already" ."

Yep. Me to! Enough dithering. Do it and get it over with.

#12: Beerbohm is alluding to Oiuda, pseudonym of Mlle de la Ramèe, a celebrated aesthete and witty author whom he thought was underrated and whom he much admired.

Really, Ouida?? I remember reading her novel Moths in my early twenties and just swooning over it. Thanks for the heads-up, Madge!

MadgeUK wrote: "#12: Beerbohm is alluding to Oiuda, pseudonym of Mlle de la Ramèe, a celebrated aesthete and witty author whom he thought was underrated and whom he much admired."

I wonder why that isn't mentioned in any of the sites I looked at concerning the book. One would think it would be.

MadgeUK wrote: "#12: Beerbohm is alluding to Oiuda, pseudonym of Mlle de la Ramèe, a celebrated aesthete and witty author whom he thought was underrated and whom he much admired."

Strange that if he admired her he would have based such a horrible creature as Zuleika on her.

MadgeUK wrote: "#12: Beerbohm is alluding to Oiuda, pseudonym of Mlle de la Ramèe, a celebrated aesthete and witty author whom he thought was underrated and whom he much admired."

If that's really the case, you should edit the Wikipedia pages for her and for the book to include that interesting fact, since neither one mentions it.

If that's really the case...

Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Y...

I don't think Beerbohm saw Zuleika as horrible, she was just an exaggeration of a woman aesthete. Apparently Ouida was OTT too.

I'll leave you to edit Wikipedia.

I wonder if Beerbohm intended any reference to the biblical Zuleika:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuleik...

MadgeUK wrote: " If that's really the case...

Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U......"

I don't think Zulieka is terrible either, even now. I also don't get the feeling that the author thought she was terrible.

Chapters 11 and 12 (where Beerbohm tranfers to first person narrative) felt like an interlude, an entr'acte between major events. We have that dreamy quality as he floats over his old Oxford haunts and he also chooses this moment to justify his "right" to tell the story - he is Clio's, the Muse of History's, servant.
It was nice to be taken out of the insane goings-on between Zuleika, the Duke and her other admirers for a moment and reflect more tranquilly on the whole picture. I hope Beerbohm returns to a more pacy form, though, as I'm ready for action again.

Thanks for the background info on Ouida. She is new to me.

Deborah wrote: "I don't think Zulieka is terrible either, even now. "

Surely you don't think she's admirable?

Or do you?

MadgeUK wrote: " Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources:
"

I was unable to access any of those books.

Googling Ouida Beerbohm gets me plenty of links talking about them both, but none which specifically say that Zuleika was based on her.

Even googling Ouida Beerbohm Zuleika gives me links which talk about Beerbohm and Ouida and Beerbohm and Zuleika but none that say that Zuleika was based on Ouida.

Guess you have access to a different Internet than I do.

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I don't think Zulieka is terrible either, even now. "

Surely you don't think she's admirable?

Or do you?"


I have to agree with Deborah. I don't think Zuleika is that awful. I am perhaps on of the few people who kind of like her. Though I don't know if I would say I admire her, I do enjoy and appreciate the fact that she seems like such a free spirit.

She might seem to be heartless but she dosen't act out of malice. I don't think she is to blame for how other people react to her. She hasn't willfully caused any harm or actually done any wrong.

She does take delight in the Duke's sacrifice of himself for her but he made that choice completely of his own free will, she didn't ask it of him.

I don't think Zuleika acts out of malice, but I do find her silly, immature and selfish. Her one saving grace, from a modern woman's point of view, is perhaps that she is self-sufficient financially and has made her own way, however you may disagree with her methods.

And talking of her methods - did anyone else have a magic set when they were young? My brother and I had one and it contained pretty much the same tools with which Zuleika plies her rather pathetic trade. If only I'd read this novel at an earlier date - I could have been the toast of the civilised world!!

Pip wrote: " If only I'd read this novel at an earlier date - I could have been the toast of the civilised world!! "

Whereas now you have to settle for being the toast of the Readers Review (and a few other Goodreads groups we have in common).

Everyman wrote: "Pip wrote: " If only I'd read this novel at an earlier date - I could have been the toast of the civilised world!! "

Whereas now you have to settle for being the toast of the Readers Review (and a..."

BIG BELLY LAUGH!!! Take that back, or I'll have to go all Zuleika on you and despise you on principle because you're being positive towards me! I might be prepared to think twice if you were prepared to die for me though.... Would you? Could you?
You'd make Madge very happy. I'd probably be, like, whatever? As I believe you say over thure.

Pip wrote: "I might be prepared to think twice if you were prepared to die for me though.... Would you? Could you? "

Certainly I could, and if would be for anybody, it would be for you. But as to whether I would, I'll have to ask my wife. She makes all the important decisions around here.

I'll check and let you know.

Pip wrote: "You'd make Madge very happy."

I'm not sure. Disputing with me is one of the things that keeps her alive and her juices flowing. If I went, wouldn't she fall into intellectual decline for lack of anybody to sharpen her sword of wit on?

Ha ha ha! Don't worry your wife; I'd be Madge Incarnate given half the chance, and make your life a misery :-)

Having just come back at 2am from a party I don't need anyone outside of the UK to keep my juices flowing and I certainly would not wish death for anyone but myself.

Everyman wrote: "Pip wrote: "I might be prepared to think twice if you were prepared to die for me though.... Would you? Could you? "

Certainly I could, and if would be for anybody, it would be for you. But as to..."

Well, She Who Must Be Obeyed refused me permission to do a Duke to your Zuleika. Sorry, but she's the boss.

MadgeUK wrote: "Having just come back at 2am from a party ...."

Egad. I can't recall being up that late ever in my married life. We did get home on a midnight ferry once after attending a play on the mainland, but I slept in the car on the ferry ride, so I don't know whether that counts.

Our normal bedtime is 9:15 on weeknights and 9:30 on weekends. We're country folk here. We might be persuaded to say up until 10:00 if there's a really good reason, but when your rooster crows reliably before 5:15, and if that doesn't do it the alarm goes off at 5:20, the very thought of staying up until 2am makes me go weak.

Why would Zuleika consider holding a Sponge while men are dueling? (Chapter 10)

Bonnie wrote: "Why would Zuleika consider holding a Sponge while men are dueling? (Chapter 10)"

I wondered about that too... to mop up the blood?

#35: I am rarely in bed before 1. And my cat gets me up at 5 to be let out. I am an owl rather than a lark and think best at night. Sometimes I read throughout the night and catch a couple of hours sleep the following afternoon.

Guess you have access to a different Internet than I do.

I am (was) a professional researcher and like Heineken, know how to reach the parts that others don't:)

Bonnie wrote: "Why would Zuleika consider holding a Sponge while men are dueling? (Chapter 10)"

I assumed it was a reference to boxing, where the corner man holds the sponge ready to mop up the sweat, blood and tears... showing that Zuleika is quite happy to watch them fight over her.

Good catch Emma!

Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: " Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources:
"

I was unable to access any of those books.

Googling Ouid..."


Your results depend upon what search engine you use

Everyman wrote: "Deborah wrote: "I don't think Zulieka is terrible either, even now. "

Surely you don't think she's admirable?

Or do you?"

First, it's satire, and therefore exaggerated. Next, it's not black and white. It is possible to find her neither terrible nor admirable.

I found Zuleika a rather charming and frivolous character until she became angry that the Duke was NOT going to kill himself over her, started asking other young men to shout her name at the point of their deaths and then poured water over the Duke/humiliated him. At this point the satire is starting to feel a bit heavy handed. I was also struck by Beerbohm's rather unflattering description of her magic skills-this seemed the first time that she was less than perfection in the narrator's view.

I did love the description of Oxford in the last chapter-it's permanence and solidity even in the face of the potential loss of so many of its best and brightest young men. With perhaps the tiniest suggestion that the students aren't quite living up to the grandeur and gravity of the University they attend?

It was ironic that Beerbohm wrote about losing a generation of bright young men only a decade before WWI:(

Magic and all things supernatural were Victorian obsessions so this is another target of his satire.

Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources..."

I was unable to access any of those books.


In a Winter City
Ouida (Marie Louise De La Ramée)
Vivid picture of the life of English expatriates in a disguised Florence, Italy, in the 1870s.
books.google.co.uk/books?id=UmN4mvck8p4C


A Companion to Sensation Fiction
Pamela K. Gilbert
Comprehensive collection offering a complete introduction to one of the most popular literary forms of the Victorian period, its key authors and works, its major themes, and its lasting legacy.
books.google.co.uk/books?id=1M_XknhqA-MC


Ouida and Victorian Popular Culture
Jane Jordan, Andrew King
Radically new view of Ouida, engaging with perceptions of popular and women writers, conceptions of 'high' and 'low' literatures, theatrical adaptation of fiction, and issues related to imperialism, nationalism and cosmopolitanism.
books.google.co.uk/books?id=YlGiAgAAQBAJ

I stripped down the URLs. Play nice in the sandbox please, children.

Thanks Bonnie:) My links were to pages of the books mentioning Beerbohm and Ouida but I couldn't copy and paste the text and my memory isn't good enough to quote chunks of it.

I also didn't think of Zuleika as completely terrible (vain, selfish, shallow, yes, but not terrible) until she began to urge on the Duke to kill himself and take pleasure in the fact that other men will do so as well. There is a reason that the statues at the beginning find her arrival to be so distressing and look at it in horror.

I'm not sure where Beerbohm is going to take this. So far, as a satirical tale, it can be amusing (although disliking Zuleika and the Duke so much, it is difficult to find it too amusing). But, if they all kill themselves, where is the humor?

I also liked the scene where the author is hovering over Oxford. I found his thoughts on ideas vs. action to be interesting. It is the big criticism of academe. It is argued - and I agree - that too much knowledge without going into the world and using those ideas to make the world a better place is useless.

The passage with Clio was also interesting...history vs. tragedy (or fictional novels). I could relate. I love history, but unless the author is a masterful storyteller, I find reading books on history to be difficult to wade through. I like to see history come to life via novels and quality film/TV shows. And when I do read history, I like books that focus on the people, not just the events and dates.

For me, the pace has picked up a bit, and I'm looking forward to reading how the Duke will react to his "shower" at the hands of Zuleika.

Bonnie wrote: "Everyman wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Search for Ouida Beerbohm not just Ouida. Google books don't facilitate copy and paste so here are three of my sources..."

I was unable to access any of those book..."

Thank you Bonnie

MadgeUK wrote: "Thanks Bonnie:) My links were to pages of the books mentioning Beerbohm and Ouida but I couldn't copy and paste the text and my memory isn't good enough to quote chunks of it."

Thanks, Bonnie, though I admit that I'm not inclined to search through those books to see what they say about Ouida and Zuleika.

If he did base Z on O, it seems a fairly obscure fact since it isn't mentioned in mainstream searchable sources.

But more interesting to me is, if O did in fact influence his creation of Z, is why, since he clearly admired Ouida, he would base such a character on her, and even claim that it was a highly recognizable portrait? I can hardly think that any intelligent woman would want to be associated as the direct model for Zuleika.