Morales 2341 Spring 2015 Class TTH discussion

Is Death of a Salesman a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero, or is his death merely the pathetic demise of a small man?

Note: Research a tragic hero and a modern tragic hero.

In Death of as Salesman. In my opinion is a pathetic demise of a small man. Willy realizes that things in his life are not going to get any better and has no way to improve it. He has tried his best and at the age of sixty recognizes this by not having enough money to pay for his bills to support his family.And his two sons that are living with him without a job to help him to live the american dream that he has always wanted. The only good thing that he had was a supporting wife that loves him and always encourages him that things are going to be alright.

I think in the play, Death of A Salesman is a tragedy. It's about a man living in a era where the man has to be a provider, strong, and independent. He believes in these morals so much that you could say it drove him mad. You can't blame anyone for trying to make things better for themselves or their family. I just believe its not what you do in this world,its how you do it. On top of all his external troubles, in his mind he starts to lose it. He begins to show signs of schizophrenia, by having conversations with people who are not there. He starts to lose grasp of whats real and what isn't. By definition, a tragic hero is someone of noble stature. A man who is not ordinary but a man with outstanding quality and greatness about him and who is destined to fall. You can say he fits this description because he builds himself up to be a great person, he says himself I am somebody. So by him telling himself he is someone he starts to believe it and when he doesn't live up to his own expectations. He begins to lash out his son Biff for not doing anything with his life. In reality it is him who hasn't amounted to anything at all, so in a sense his death was a pathetic demise of a small man.

In the death of a salesman, I believe that the death of Willy is merely a pathetic demise of a small man. In 1949, when the play was written it had already been ten years since the Great Depression had passed. That is why i believe that Willy's death was only a demise of a small man because the Great Depression had already passed and the society was recuperating from that event. Willy was a 60 year old man who had been working for the same company since he was 26, in which he had doing the same job for the past 34 years probably because there were not too many jobs available at that time. Willy had a necessity when he started working at that company because he had a responsibility which was his first child, which he named Biff who in the poem is 34 years old just the same years that Willy has been working for the company. The tragic hero would have to be someone who led himself into his own demise. A modern tragic hero would be someone from any social class status that would not affected by any decisions he took. A modern tragic hero’s decision does not have to end in the death of the character.

In the death of a salesman, Willy did not die hero he was a pathetic demise of a small man. It is a sad story but in the end he never got his American dream because his version of the American dream was all in his head. He never worked hard for what he wanted and he passed that to his kids. He lived in a dream that was not going to be realized by just wanting it. His kids never learned what hard work gets you. He never encouraged them to try hard in school, instead he encouraged their bad grades and behavior. At sixty he was still dreaming of the American dream which by this time was not going to happen. The only good thing he had going was the support of his wife. She was very patient with him and always had faith in him no matter how many times he lied or let her down. It’s not how you die that makes you a hero it’s how you lived that makes you one.

By Eric De Leon
“Death of a Salesman” is an American tale of Willy Loman’s shattered dreams. This is story is a tragedy because it not only involves the death of one man but the overall failure and implosion of an entire family. Willy Loman’s focus on life was on attaining the ever illusive, intangible, American Dream. He failed to accomplish his ambitions in life and thus made him a tragic character. He is not a tragic hero due to the fact that he didn’t share any great or virtuous characteristics. Willy Loman wasn’t even a modern tragic hero. He never quite made to a pinnacle from which he could be knocked down from; Willy Loman was just a man that failed. Externally he had so many faults such as pride, he was a male chauvinist, and had an inflated sense of self. Once the reader manages to get past this front however, it only takes a little digging to see that underneath all of this he really is an insecure man trying to navigate through life just like everybody else. The real tragedy is Willy Loman had a chance at redemption once he and his family had that moment of truth. Biff states it best when says “He had the wrong dreams. All, all wrong.” Willy Loman could have put all his false pride, his self-deception down and just focused on strengthening and loving his family. Instead, he put himself down.

Yes I believe the play “Death of a Salesman” by Arthur Miller is a tragedy play because the main character has a sad life bumping into different types of problems now because he is old. He is left without a job and discovers that all his goals and ideas were set wrong. He though that by looking good and getting into people good side he was done he would be successful and would even have a chance of taking shortcuts. Which later on in the stories we know that he was wrong. I strongly believe that Willy Loman is a viewed as the tragic hero in this play. His death is not seen as a pathetic demise of a small man at all because when he dies he does die happy, relieve, and in peace with himself. It is when he dies that I got the whole picture of this play and I saw how he envy his older brother Ben but at the end he had something that Ben didn’t had and no it wasn’t diamonds and fortune, it was something much more valuable than that, which was that he had his son’s love. I also don’t believe Willy die as a pathetic demise of a small man because even though he did not accomplish his American dream he did accomplish to have a roof for his family and to conquer his family love.

The American dream is just an illusion, instead of a reality. Willy Loman died being just another average or maybe pathetic worker in the US. He did never really got in the his dream, He never achieved anything important other than being able to miserable sustain his family. The American dream was not what he was expecting, even do he tried hard to be successful in American. For him The American dream was just that, a dream. A dream that will never become a reality, since he just sees himself being successful on his mine. To me, The American dream is just propaganda for people to come to the US to work on the low class jobs that the American people do not want to perform. On the US you are told what to do and want to become. Willy died being a small man, he could be easily replace by another immigrant later. The American dream was more of like an American nightmare for him.

I can see the play “Death of a Salesman” to be a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero. When I think of the demise of a small man I feel that Willy Loman doesn’t fit the description. I feel that someone who tried their best knowing that they could have had a better future is honorable despite the disastrous outcome of the play. Yes, his ideals in life weren’t lived up to his expectations but Willy Loman did the best he could with what he had and with what he had chosen. Yes, he regrets the choices he made in life and wonders how different his life would be if he chose a different path but I think that the outcome of his fate could have been different if he would have experienced this situation in a different time frame, if his sons were just a tad bit more productive and successful, and if he would have gotten more respect for his hard work from the company he had served for more than thirty years. The aggravating factors for Willy Lomas tragic suicide was imposed these variables,which if would have been different, we can assume that his fate would have changed.

Erick wrote: "The American dream is just an illusion, instead of a reality. Willy Loman died being just another average or maybe pathetic worker in the US. He did never really got in the his dream, He never ac..."
I feel that in the U.S. we have the freedom to choose what to become of ourselves, and i feel the journey is more important than the outcome.

The difference between modern tragedy and a tragic hero is that a tragic hero is a person that is respected, a person of high esteem that has a flaw that causes their ultimate demise and a modern tragedy is of a common man not of any importance just an average joe who doesn’t necessarily have a flaw that leads to his demise. Willy Loman’s death is merely the pathetic demise of a small man with dreams that never occurred. He dreamt of making it big and one day being liked and everyone knowing his name and respecting him but was never able to. He had was living a lie. He was telling himself that he was well liked that he was gonna be successful but he was just lying to himself and in the end he died alone. It’s a tragic story of a person that died and didn't matter. No one went to his funeral. A man who lived his entire life to pay off an empty house and end up without a job and with no respect. Its a modern tragedy of a common man, an everyman, a forgotten man.

Arlette.Cortez wrote: "Yes I believe the play “Death of a Salesman” by Arthur Miller is a tragedy play because the main character has a sad life bumping into different types of problems now because he is old. He is left ..."

Interesting, i agree that Willy Loman had something better then his brother Ben and Willy is seen as a hero in most perspectives.

Can anyone really consider Willy Loman a tragic hero? I'd have to say Willy Loman's death was the demise of a pathetic man. Growing up without his father might be the only tragic thing in Willy's life, and we can assume that the absence of his father shaped the way he raised his own children. That does not, however, justify Willy's character. He encouraged his sons to believe they could have anything they wanted whether they worked for it or not. He himself expected success and wealth to be handed to him just because he was putting in a little bit of effort. Even to his acquaintances he was a rather unpleasant man who was constantly pitying himself and wanted others to pity him. Willy Loman's ambitions were mediocre and selfish and his blind faith in the American Dream ultimately led him to delusion. I can't see him as a tragic hero because he never displayed any characteristics that gave him at least the potential to achieve his dreams. He thought rather highly of himself even though he hadn't accomplished anything. That could be interpreted as a sort of defense mechanism, to feel better about himself for having failed. But that doesn't undo the fact that Willy Loman never changed, never really strived to be more.

Willy Loman from a “Death of a salesman”, in my opinion was neither a modern tragic hero nor any type of tragic hero. He was a pathetic demise of a small man because he passed away as a failure and failed his entire family. He didn’t encourage his children to do better, he never took in to consideration that he had a good caring wife that always supported him and helped in whatever she could to boost his self-esteem. He always wanted to live the “good life” but never worked hard for it. His family suffered financially since he had lost his job and the kids were jobless since Willy never enforced them to become more responsible. In their thirties, Biff and Happy still lived with their parents and didn’t help support the family either. Willy lived as an insecure man who only wanted to live wealthy and with success but never accomplished it. Once he realizes he hasn’t done so, he goes through a mental breakdown. At the funeral, Linda asks Willy for forgiveness for not being able to cry and repeats at the end of the story, “We’re free..”

In the story “Death of a Salesman” I do believe the death of Willy was a tragedy, but he was no tragic hero to me. Willie’s death was an arousing pity because of his vulnerability and sadness he carried all his life. After his son Biff discovered his affair it drained him knowing he broke his son’s heart. Ever since that day, Willy knows his son was destroyed and Biff let go of many of his dreams because of the pain of betrayal that weighted him down. As the years pass, Willie could no longer focus because his conscious would not let him. I do give the old man props for working for so many years in the same company to maintain his home and keep up with his bills. However, it is sad how Willie lived for many years ashamed for getting caught cheating by his son. The reason I know it ashamed him was because it kept haunting him down especially when Biff was away. There is a part in the play Happy the other son tells his brother Biff, “Something is happening to him. He-talks to himself. And you know something? Most of the time he’s talking to you.” It seems to me Willie is in guilt. He knew his son Biff kept leaving the house because it tore him down knowing his father was unfaithful to his mother Linda. It is ridiculous how Willie kept quarreling with his son instead of apologizing to make things better. For many years he acted like an honorable man for working hard but his disloyalty just ruins his son’s dreams and even his own.

Willy in "Death of a Salesman" is not all there and when I say that I mean it mentally. He obviously has problems and he can't control himself, it can be his age or maybe stress that he himself has been accumulating all those years. He takes his anger out on his family and everyone around him, and to me that makes him a small man. Willy doesn't respect his son's nor his wife, and in my opinion, the wife was there to support him no matter what and he didn't care. Instead of trying to fix the problems he will just make them worse by yelling at everyone and making them responsible for the failures in his life. Instead of being the man of the house, which back then the man was the rock of the family, he not even once encourage his kids to be better. If Biff would not do something Willy had in mind, Willy would automatically mark him as a failure. The way he died was pathetic, he just easily gave up in life.

Lillian wrote: "Is Death of a Salesman a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero, or is his death merely the pathetic demise of a small man?

Note: Research a tragic hero and a modern tragic hero."

After reading the story/play “Death of a Salesman”, I come to find, and it makes me feel really bad for saying this but I believe that it was “ merely the death demise of a small man”, reason being Willy was always lieng to his boss, kids,and his wife, even his neighbor, Charlie. I want to say that the part where his father is discovered having an affair is the focal point or climax to this story. All of biffs life , Willy was selling the American dream to him that he was a liked person that one day he too had to become just like him. Willy was just a small lonely man incapable of accepting the love his own family tried to give him. He uses his late brother as an escape throughout the story , and often converses with him seeking approval of his “accomplishments”. Willy’s family, Charlie his successful neighbor whom he was jealous of for being so successful owning his own business were the only ones who attended his funeral. Willy wanted everyone he knew to believe so much that he was living the American dream when in reality he was living a nightmare, so much that he often tried to kill himself and end it all, which is exactly what he did in the end.

Jesus M wrote: "In the death of a salesman, I believe that the death of Willy is merely a pathetic demise of a small man. In 1949, when the play was written it had already been ten years since the Great Depression..."

I too agreed that Willy's death was merely the death of a small man, willy lived in a web of lies and even committed adultery. Willy still raising his 34 year old son Biff, and still pushing him towards his idea of the American dream which ends up being his biggest mistake.

Erick wrote: "The American dream is just an illusion, instead of a reality. Willy Loman died being just another average or maybe pathetic worker in the US. He did never really got in the his dream, He never ac..."

I agree, I like how you described Willy's persona, yes he died being a sad small man believing in a false dream that never came true. I also pointed out that instead of living the American dream Willy lived the American nightmare.

Erick wrote: "The American dream is just an illusion, instead of a reality. Willy Loman died being just another average or maybe pathetic worker in the US. He did never really got in the his dream, He never ac..."

Erick, the idea of "The American Dream" did ended up as a nightmare for Willy. He ended up dying not understanding his family to the fullest, nor he lived the good life. The dream took over him, and ended up his life in a sad story with no one attending his funeral.

Gilbert wrote: "I can see the play “Death of a Salesman” to be a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero. When I think of the demise of a small man I feel that Willy Loman doesn’t fit the description. I feel that so..."

Hi, Gilbert. I appreciate your viewpoint seeing Willy Loman as a tragic hero. I'm actually pretty hesitant to call him this but I can see the virtue of his "never give up no matter what" attitude. People who do great things in life often always have detractors calling them delusional, or saying something "cant be done." So its very admirable and that much more tragic that he held on to his dreams to the end.

Jaqueline wrote: "Can anyone really consider Willy Loman a tragic hero? I'd have to say Willy Loman's death was the demise of a pathetic man. Growing up without his father might be the only tragic thing in Willy's l..."

Hi Jaqueline. So why not tell us what you really think? lol! Wow, you certainly did not pull any punches. You are of course, correct in his analysis if seen entirely through a logos perspective. This is the realization and clarity of vision that Willy's son Biff ultimately achieves which leaves me feeling hopeful at least for him.

Janetrendon wrote: "Lillian wrote: "Is Death of a Salesman a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero, or is his death merely the pathetic demise of a small man?

Note: Research a tragic hero and a modern tragic hero."

..."


I see your point of view Janet, and I can understand why you see Willy as a pathetic demise small man. One of the reasons you pointed out and I do agree with you is that he was a liar and he was a failure in his job. But besides that I do see Willy as tragic hero because no matter if he was a liar or not good at his job he manage to provide a roof, food, and supplies necessary for his family. He may not be the greatest husband or dad figure but at least he didn’t leave them just like his dad and his brother, Ben, did to him. For me that shows a lot of courage and responsibility that makes me see Willy as a tragic hero.

Maria wrote: "In Death of as Salesman. In my opinion is a pathetic demise of a small man. Willy realizes that things in his life are not going to get any better and has no way to improve it. He has tried his bes..."

I don't think that willy has tried his best. He was most of a dreamer than a person that actually makes it happen. He could have improve his life style. If you don't make it in one job get another one or at least one that is more enjoyable. It seem that he was a business man just to look more professional. i don't even think that he really liked his job, his salary sucked and for him it was not enjoyable.

ChristinaMarie wrote: "Willy Loman from a “Death of a salesman”, in my opinion was neither a modern tragic hero nor any type of tragic hero. He was a pathetic demise of a small man because he passed away as a failure and..."

I would have to disagree with you in this one Christina, I do see Willy as a tragic hero because unlike you I don’t think he failed his entire family. He may not be the greatest father or husband like you mention but I do believe he was a good man because he stilled provided a roof, food, and supplies to his family. Willy didn’t just walk away on his family like his dad and his older brother, Ben, did on him and for me that made me look at him as a hero even though he wasn’t a hard worker and wanted everything the easy way just liked you said.

Gilbert wrote: "Erick wrote: "The American dream is just an illusion, instead of a reality. Willy Loman died being just another average or maybe pathetic worker in the US. He did never really got in the his drea..."
Yes, maybe in a partial mode. i do know a lot of people that have college degree and don't have the appropriate a job. Then, there is people that have not college degree at all and have much more better job.This may be probably due to capitalism. Companies don't want to invest for an educated worker, they just want the cheapest worker possible.It seem that you do get to chose what you want to be, but it does mean that you are going to actually become or perform what you want to do.

Eric wrote: "By Eric De Leon
“Death of a Salesman” is an American tale of Willy Loman’s shattered dreams. This is story is a tragedy because it not only involves the death of one man but the overall failure and..."

Hey, Eric. You point out that Willy is a tragic character but not a tragic hero, and I agree. I'm also with you on that he had a chance at redemption and didn't really take it. I don't have a lot of sympathy for Willy Loman because I think he was always aware of who he was - a cowardly yet very proud man - and never did a thing about it.

Gilbert wrote: "I can see the play “Death of a Salesman” to be a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero. When I think of the demise of a small man I feel that Willy Loman doesn’t fit the description. I feel that so..."

Hi, Gilbert. I do agree with you that the play and Willy's death itself were tragedies but I don't agree that he is a tragic hero. I don't feel that Willy Loman really "tried his best," I feel his efforts were always mediocre and he expected to be rewarded for them. I really believe Willy Loman knew exactly the kind of man he was and refused to change out of pride. Mostly, I don't consider him a tragic hero because he never displayed any potentially redeeming characteristics.

Maria wrote: "In Death of as Salesman. In my opinion is a pathetic demise of a small man. Willy realizes that things in his life are not going to get any better and has no way to improve it. He has tried his bes..."

Hey, Maria I feel like the most tragic part of the story is that he convinces himself that he is killing himself to be a martyr. What do you think is the most tragic part of the story?

Janetrendon wrote: "Lillian wrote: "Is Death of a Salesman a tragedy and Willy Loman a tragic hero, or is his death merely the pathetic demise of a small man?

Note: Research a tragic hero and a modern tragic hero."

..."

Hey Janet, it does feel really bad to say that he was a small man. I think we should sympathize with Willy because we all have a little bit of Willy in us. He uses defense mechanisms that we all use in our lives. It's a reminder that we all have these flaws and should try our best to avoid them.

In "Death of a Salesman" I believe Willy Loman's death was a tragedy, but he was a pathetic demise of a small man. Even though Willy tried to make each day better, he didn't try his best. Instead of looking for another job, he decided it would be more easy to ask for money, which is pathetic for me. He took the easy route. Also, he was to much of a prideful man, never one to correct his mistakes from his past. He just had to confront the truth and let things happen on itself. As a parent, I believe his parenting advice was not great, and not well thought. Even though he didn't have a father, it does not excuse him to acknowledge right from wrong. On contrast, Willy's death was a tragedy because no man should die like that. He gave in on life which is sad because his family and him had just acknowledge the mistakes they had done or the biggest situation they had with each other. Also, he never gave up on finding his "American Dream."

Yuri wrote: "In the story “Death of a Salesman” I do believe the death of Willy was a tragedy, but he was no tragic hero to me. Willie’s death was an arousing pity because of his vulnerability and sadness he ca..."

Yuri, great analysis. Willy was just torn from his infidelity and the fact that his son caught him. He never took the chance to say sorry and his conscious was killing him.

Arlette.Cortez wrote: "Yes I believe the play “Death of a Salesman” by Arthur Miller is a tragedy play because the main character has a sad life bumping into different types of problems now because he is old. He is left ..."

Arlette, I feel that Willy was pathetic because he never took the opportunity to make a change in himself and his living. Also, even though he was let go from his job of 34 years, he didn't care to look for a job, instead he went asking for money which is pathetic.

Maria wrote: "In Death of as Salesman. In my opinion is a pathetic demise of a small man. Willy realizes that things in his life are not going to get any better and has no way to improve it. He has tried his bes..."

I agree he wasn't a hero I believe he took the easy way out. He couldn't face the truth so he committed suicide.

Jaqueline wrote: "Can anyone really consider Willy Loman a tragic hero? I'd have to say Willy Loman's death was the demise of a pathetic man. Growing up without his father might be the only tragic thing in Willy's l..."
hi Jaqueline, i agree with your perspective from this play. i do believe that willy was affected when he was growing up because he did not had a father. Willy was a bad parent because he was encouraging biff to copy in the exams instead of telling him not to copy. I think that willy's life was a disaster since the beginning, when he was growing up without a father.

Willy Loman's death in the play "The Death of a Salesman" can be consider the pathetic demise of a small man. He was the father of two boys and a husband of a nurturing wife. Willy never had intentions of hurting his family, in the other hand he always wanted the best for them but his strong ambitions lead him to act negatively. He was internally strong and dedicated man that always set his mind in accomplishing what he wanted. His actions make me analyze that he had a very strong mind set and had a strong mentality but the external forces around him limited him to was his mind was capable of achieving. He lived his life chasing out a dream but in the real world he had no chances of catching that dream. "Well, what happened? It's great news, Biff. Did he take you into his office or'd you talk in the waiting-room?". Willy impatiently questioned Biff in this quote after Biff was supposed to talk to Oliver. Biff never talked to Oliver but as soon as he met with his dad, Willy expected that Oliver would talk to Biff. This questions made by Willy to Biff is an example of how he expects so much in life but always gets disappointed and acts negatively when he faces reality. The reality was that he never had the opportunities or chances of getting what he wanted to accomplish and only faced reality when he got closer to his death.

Miguel wrote: "Willy Loman's death in the play "The Death of a Salesman" can be consider the pathetic demise of a small man. He was the father of two boys and a husband of a nurturing wife. Willy never had intent..."

Hey Miguel, I agree with your point of view on Willy because I also mentioned that he was a pathetic man since he wanted the best for the family like you said but never accomplished anything.

Jessica wrote: "In "Death of a Salesman" I believe Willy Loman's death was a tragedy, but he was a pathetic demise of a small man. Even though Willy tried to make each day better, he didn't try his best. Instead o..."

Hello Jessica, I agree with you because I do think it is pathetic that he went asking for money instead of looking for another job. Also, he never appreciated his nurturing wife that was only good to him.

Eric wrote: "By Eric De Leon
“Death of a Salesman” is an American tale of Willy Loman’s shattered dreams. This is story is a tragedy because it not only involves the death of one man but the overall failure and..."
Eric DL you are right the entire family was a failure. I like how you mentioned Willy Lomam had a moment of redemption. Everything could have been different like you said if he had put all his false pride and just focused on strengthening and loving his family.

Jesus M wrote: "In the death of a salesman, I believe that the death of Willy is merely a pathetic demise of a small man. In 1949, when the play was written it had already been ten years since the Great Depression..."

Jesus M I agree with you, Willy’s death was a pathetic demise of a small man. Good point about the Great Depression he could of gotten a new job society was recuperating from that event and maybe his luck would have been better if he had change working somewhere else.