Georgette Heyer Fans discussion

Here you can write spoilers about The Grand Sophy freely.

The thread without spoilers is here.

What fun! I just finished listening to the abridged version from my library, and I still find the ending one of the most delightful, witty and funny ensemble endings Heyer ever wrote! Had my chuckling as I knit, what a treat. I forgot Sophy actually shot Charlbury - what a charming and forgiving man he is. I can’t help wondering if the Marquesa ever got her eggs?

Susan in NC wrote: "What fun! I just finished listening to the abridged version from my library, and I still find the ending one of the most delightful, witty and funny ensemble endings Heyer ever wrote! Had my chuckl..."

Yes, she actually shot him. But as they always used to say in the western movies--it was only a flesh wound! Poor Charlbury!

Sophy actually shooting Charlbury (who was certainly a good sport about it!) is what I remember any time I find Charles to be too stern at the beginning of the book. It's the fault of Eugenia, and his Father's irresponsible behavior, of course, but he also has to be a very strong personality for someone like Sophy.

Although there is nobody else like her; she is unique in all of fiction.

Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing to their tune. Sophie is the only female character that I think matches her male heroes in that kind of power and leadership. There a few strong Georgette Heyer heroines that match Sophy for their spirit and agency, but none that have her combination of sangfroid, confidence, and levelheadedness. Serena? Too hot-tempered. Deb? Too impulsive. Judith? Too bullheaded. Babs? Too tempestuous. Yes, they are all formidable. But Sophy is a “fixer.”

I laughed when Sir Horace asks his sister if she'd played Ombersley false, when talking about Charles, I think it was!

Rebekah wrote: "Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing to their tune. Sophie is the only..."

actually, it may be the only GH without a male hero?

Rebekah wrote: "Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing to their tune. Sophie is the only..."

I agree with you.
I am listening to an audiobook this time, and every minute with it is sunshine.

sabagrey wrote: "Rebekah wrote: "Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing to their tune. So..."
Yes, I think you're right. A love interest is not necessarily a "hero."

Rebekah wrote: "Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing to their tune. Sophie is the only..."
This is why I love him. He can be stubborn and pigheaded, but he is also willing to apologize and admit when he is wrong. An icon. I want more MMCs and Love Interests like Charles

Really, Sophy IS the hero of the book, and it takes a special love interest to just let that happen. Charles is an excellent love interest and Sophy figures out very early in the book that he is, at least, a much better person to be in charge of the family than his father is.

Whenever I finish this I think, "I want to be Sophy when I grow up!" I admire and like her so much. (Although I'm now 69, so I think it's getting to be too late for me. lol) She and the banter absolutely make the book for me, though I like and feel for Charles, and am so glad he gets rescued. Imagine what his life would have been like without Sophy!

One of my favorite moments in the book is Charles' Dawning Realization that he loves Sophy. That tender scene as he watches Sophy tending to his very ill youngest sister always gets to me.

I think Charles is a good match for her. He certainly has no illusions about what his future with her will be. He's strong enough for her but won't try to control her (much).

Finished (once again), loving it (once again), and wondering (once again) about the "grand finale", indeed one of Heyer's best ensemble scenes (and she's always good at them).

There's always the question what Sophy planned and what she improvised - truly like a general. I get the impression that Heyer used her knowledge of Wellington's battles (which she studied for Infamous Army, and also for The Spanish Bride) to design Sophy's "battle", because, just as in a real battle, there's one half planning and one half ingenious opportunism ... But it's still a puzzle to me why Charles follows her - he sees through her scheme - and why she thinks/hopes/knows he will. (there are a few hints that she is not certain).

If everything goes by her plan, with only the few persons she originally intends to be there (Sancia, Charlbury, Cecilia, Charles), the role of Charles, and his reasons to be there, are not clear to me. She seems to think/hope from the beginning that it could mean progress also in the Charles-Eugenia issue - but how and why? - Eugenia, in the original, would never know abut the "elopement"? Even if Charles becomes aware of the truth of his feelings, what can he do to make Eugenia jilt him? Would Sophy then have to hatch another plan for Eugenia specifically, e.g. to throw her together with Bromford (It would make for another delightful episode, but of course it would take away much of the burlesque meeting at Lacy Manor, with Augustus, smoking chimneys, mustard bath, ducklings, and the rest).

..... aargh, it remains my favourite GH novel.

I honestly think it's my favorite as well. Certainly, it is always in the top three.

Finished and enjoyed it as much as ever. This time though Charles really got on my nerves. Maybe as I'm getting older I'm getting more intolerant of my book heroes as well real people. He spent much of the book grumpy. Thankfully, Sophy is the main character and great fun. I did enjoy all her entanglements with Eugenia! What a pill of a woman.

Is there any doubt about Alfred Wraxton trying to kiss Sophy? Is it likely she nipped it WAY EARLY, but exaggerated it a bit to raise Charles' ire?

Hubert might say Sophy wouldn't lie ... but she is pretty skilled.

Barb in Maryland wrote: "One of my favorite moments in the book is Charles' Dawning Realization that he loves Sophy. That tender scene as he watches Sophy tending to his very ill youngest sister always gets to me."

Oh, yes, it is a lovely scene!

sabagrey wrote: "Finished (once again), loving it (once again), and wondering (once again) about the "grand finale", indeed one of Heyer's best ensemble scenes (and she's always good at them).

There's always the ..."

I thought she was luring Charles there under the pretense of her ‘eloping’ with Charlbury to make him jealous and acknowledge his feelings for her. I thought it was brilliant of Sophy, when Eugenia and her would-be swain accompanied Cecilia unexpectedly, to turn the situation around to everyone’s satisfaction.

I always wonder - did Sophy already realize Eugenia’s feelings for the guy from Jamaica (sorry, I never remember names, even when I e read the book many times), or just see the opportunity to favorably solve the Eugenia problem on the spur of the moment?

She had made a comment to Charles about how well Miss Wraxton and Lord Bromford would suit, because of their common views of the world, without saying anything about any attraction. At the end she tells Charlbury that she is " ... persuaded she [Eugenia] and Bromford would deall extremely." So it was a possibility, but not necessarily in the plan itself.

Susan in NC wrote: "I thought she was luring Charles there under the pretense of her ‘eloping’ with Charlbury to make him jealous and acknowledge his feelings for her. "

That is a good theory. - But then, Charles guessed that the elopement was a ruse, and that Sophy would contrive to be chaperoned: he says so to Sir Horace. He could have stayed home to sample the madeira with him. - So why does he race to Lacy Manor anyway?

His idea could be to prevent the evil Eugenia is cooking up. What he says about her spreading gossip and scandal is (finally) quite unrestrained, and sincere, at this point. It's a pity we never get to know what's in the note that Eugenia sent him. GH leaves us to guess and imagine the spiteful bigotry of it - as a special treat for us readers?

And yes, I think she is already fully set on matching Eugenia with Bromford. That she can do so on the spot is an additional asset of the Lacy Manor plot. Again, as a brilliant tactician, she has all the opportunities already in her mind, so that she can act upon them immediately to contrive a wonderfully compromising situation. And how she enjoys sending Charles in ... I'd like to think that Charles is aware of the opportunity she offers him.

Big Fan wrote: "Is there any doubt about Alfred Wraxton trying to kiss Sophy? Is it likely she nipped it WAY EARLY, but exaggerated it a bit to raise Charles' ire?

Hubert might say Sophy wouldn't lie ... but she ..."

There is no doubt in my mind he tried, she dealt with it easily, and she didn't need to exaggerate it: the fact that he tried was inappropriate enough to anger Charles (and anyone else).

I think it was a spur of the moment plan, to throw Eugenia and Lord Bromford together, and Sophy as being honest when she wondered why she hadn't thought of it before. Charles said - paraphrasing? - "possibly because you knew she was engaged to me" ( I know he said it FROSTILY, lol) and she said no, that wasn't the reason.

sabagrey was posting while I was trying to post (thanks, GR) and makes a good point: she is a brilliant tactician!
It really is the best ensemble ending any way you look at it, three happy endings - so satisfying!

This was a fun read. I first read this maybe 20 years back so I found I did not remember the details well which helped. I tried listening to the audiobook as well but did not like the narrator so I went back to the ebook.

I loved Sophy - she is an amazing woman. Charles took some time warming up to. I initially disliked him but started liking him as the book progressed. The secondary characters are such fun too but Charlbury is my favorite. I almost wanted Charlbury to get Sophy! Sancia and Sir Horace were fun. And the airheaded Fawnhope was a hoot.

I especially liked the scene where Charles tests the pistol inside the home and she is like "I told you it throws left!" and they are laughing when everyone comes in. That was cute.

A few things that I am left wondering that I think others also brought up:

1. Sophy mentions to someone (maybe Wychbold?) that she is looking to kill two birds with one stone. Not quite sure how she planned to do this with her original scheme. Cecilia could be induced to terminate her engagement (or resolve to terminate), but with Eugenia not part of the original plan how did she plan to do that? The best she could hope for is to rattle Charles into declaring himself but without Eugenia crying off what could she do?

2. I would have liked some indication of Sophy's feeling for Charles. She is aware of his change in sentiment but what about hers? There is a reference to it when Cecilia tell Sophy that Charles has given his consent to her marriage (she figures out the reason why and "could not help but be gratified")

3. Why did she have to shoot poor Charlbury? She could just have wound up his arm and put it in a sling. Poor guy he was such a good sport about it too.

I just finished an ebook of The Grand Sophy.
I too had forgotten that Sophy deliberately “winged” Charlbury by pistol .. that startled me as much as poor Charlbury !
I love Charlbury’s trust in Sophy .. and also must note how important Sir Wychbold was in Sophy’s tactical planning.
Not only a grand ensemble finale .. but ducklings, the Marquesa becoming emergency cook and the fait accompli of the wedding between Sir Vincent and the Marquesa ! It was grand indeed !!
Yes. I agree that this book is one of my top three Heyer titles as well.

Cascades wrote:

Why did she have to shoot poor Charlbury? She could just have wound up his arm and put it in a sling

what a great idea, why did I never think of this? I just always accepted it, just like he does.

Nancy wrote

the fait accompli of the wedding between Sir Vincent and the Marquesa

the Marquesa married is a necessity for a Happy Ending for Sir Horace, since he was regretting his engagement. and we all know how hard it is for a decent man to get out of an engagement, it's not like he can just tell her he'd changed his mind!

Good point Jackie .. I hadn’t thought of that aspect of Sir Vincent’s wedding ;)

Jackie wrote: "Really, Sophy IS the hero of the book, and it takes a special love interest to just let that happen. Charles is an excellent love interest and Sophy figures out very early in the book that he is, a..."

100% agree! I appreciated that although Charles starts out as the worst version of his very capable self, Sophy is able to help him to modulate his austerity. 💞

Barb in Maryland wrote: "One of my favorite moments in the book is Charles' Dawning Realization that he loves Sophy. That tender scene as he watches Sophy tending to his very ill youngest sister always gets to me."

💖

Big Fan wrote: "Is there any doubt about Alfred Wraxton trying to kiss Sophy? Is it likely she nipped it WAY EARLY, but exaggerated it a bit to raise Charles' ire?

Hubert might say Sophy wouldn't lie ... but she ..."

What about that early description of Wraxton as "... a pallid young gentleman with a receding chin, a loose, wet mouth, and a knowing look in his eyes..." What a mouth to be kissed (or not kissed) by!!! 🤢

That was quite a mental picture Heyer conjured up. I love (and despise) it!

Rebekah wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Rebekah wrote: "Most of Heyer’s male characters are the kind of heroes that the reader feels are so “Master of the Universe” that every other character seems like they are dancing ..."

cotillion is also without a "hero" also the foundling

sabagrey wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I thought she was luring Charles there under the pretense of her ‘eloping’ with Charlbury to make him jealous and acknowledge his feelings for her. "

That is a good theory. - B..."

Well Charles is a) in love b) hot tempered so that he can talk of "all this is a ruse" on a "mind" level, but never the less, on his temper level, he cannot wait out what happens; especially as his sister is involved as well

(view spoiler)[ Freddie (hide spoiler)] is the hero of Cotillion.

Jackie wrote: "[spoilers removed] is the hero of Cotillion."

yes, but not the universal hero type. he and Adolphus are growing into a lighter shade of this type and are not fully fledged from the beginning, as was discussed in the post. But then there are really quite a few love interests in GH who are not that heroic. Venetia´s swain tips far into the rakish, not very heroic, nor master of the universe, or Sherry in Friday´s child - still Venetia and Hero do not equal Sophy´s way of being a force of nature and strategy

"Sophy´s way of being a force of nature and strategyN one of her heroines match Sophy in this regard, even her strong ones.

Another satisfying read. I have lost count of how many times I’ve read this over the last 60 years but it’s one I always enjoy because Sophy is such a different heroine. Despite being so young, her experiences with Sir Horace make her a very sophisticated and confident young woman - at ease in any situation.

I love her concern and compassion for those around her and her observational skills which allow her to see things that others might not.

This time around, I did notice the flaws in Heyer’s plotting at the end rather more than I usually do. It’s a farcical tour de force but when examined in the cool light of day, the obvious errors in Sophy’s plan are excruciatingly obvious as others have already pointed out. Nonetheless, I still enjoy it and it is still up there in my top favourites.