Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

The December 2025 New School Group Read is Satantango by László Krasznahorkai. This is a spoiler thread.

The 2025 Nobel Prize in Literature is awarded to László Krasznahorkai “for his compelling and visionary oeuvre that, in the midst of apocalyptic terror, reaffirms the power of art”.

Read more at The Nobel Prize
https://www.nobelprize.org/the-2025-l...

just started, first chapter intriguing, read a bit like the opening scene of a play...

This will be a reread and I hope to start by Sunday after I finjsh a couple of quicker reads.

Hello Friends, I've checked out a copy and am starting today. I look forward to reading with you!

Erich C wrote: "Hello Friends, I've checked out a copy and am starting today. I look forward to reading with you!"

I'll be starting soon Erich. My library hold just came through - it was just acquired so there were several holds.

I have read the first 3 chapters.

Very well written dark and muddy mood.

(view spoiler)[
So far I haven’t figured out where we are and what has been happening.... or what is going to happen.

I am reading in English. The women in the bar reading a “dime novel” had me confused, and for some time I believed we were in the US (Wikipedia agrees that “dime novel” is specificly American popular fiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dime_novel )

But judging from the Doctors book we are somewhere in Hungary.

Given that the Doctor so barely survived chapter 3 my normal-story-line sense expects him to get much better and become the hero of the story.
(hide spoiler)]

if you think it's dark so far JBF, I'd brace yourself for chapter 5 :oO

I have begun a reread with only a chapter in but will be focusing more on this read over the next week.

I'm adding a couple of links that relate to Krasznahorkai and his writing and vision. I suggest reading them after you finish the novel because of definite spoilers and that they are more about the author's total perspective so it discusses Satantango as the first novel in a tetralogy that Krasznahorkai describes as an attempts to write one book. These links are older. I have not read any criticism on Krasznahorkai since just after Baron Wenckheim's Homecoming.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2...

https://www.musicandliterature.org/fe...

I am also linking the essay on Broderism that Federico Perelmuter wrote in response to Herscht 07769. Again avoid this if you don't want spoilers. I am only including it because the topic of Broderism is linked to Krasznahorkai.

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/a...

Sam wrote: "I have begun a reread with only a chapter in but will be focusing more on this read over the next week.

I'm adding a couple of links that relate to Krasznahorkai and his writing and vision. I sugg..."

Thanks Sam! Looking forward to reading them after I finish. I plan to start Satantango midweek, after I finish one of the two that I'm halfway through now.

Did you understand the beginning of chapter 4?

(view spoiler)[
Halics picks up money the rich farmer dropped with a little stunt of dropping his own money to cover for it. Why is he afraid of him?
(hide spoiler)]

"Sátántangó (1994) is a critically acclaimed, seven-hour Hungarian film by director Béla Tarr"

Full movie online here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYZ7x...

... full movie: all 7 hours and 19 minutes

I started this today, and I am finding the story and action a little confusing at first. Can someone help me and let me know if they are seeing the basic plot/setting in the first chapter the same way that I am?

Spoilers for chapter 1:
(view spoiler)[Is Futaki afraid when Schmidt comes home because he's in bed with Schmidt's wife? It seems like maybe that's the case as he is there to talk to her as she awakens.

Do these characters live in a sort of commune? Somehow Schmidt is stealing money to get funds to leave. Maybe he is taking the money from selling the cattle the whole group communally owns? If not, I can't understand what he's stealing. Maybe they all contribute their work to the commune for their meager, mold infested shelters and for meager food?

I don't know the political situation in this region and timeframe, but that's the best guess I can come up with. (hide spoiler)]

What did everyone else think? Please let me know, as I don't want to start this book off wrongfooted.

Thank you!

“The estate” is a closed collective farm
Do we know Schmidt is stealing? Definitely something fishy.

Historical background:
From 1956 to 1989 Hungary had “Goulash Communism“
”the Hungarian People's Republic implemented policies with the goal to create a high standard of living for the people of Hungary coupled with economic reforms. …. relative cultural freedom in Hungary, giving it the reputation of being "the happiest barracks" … during the 1960s to the 1970s.... elements of regulated market economics as well as an improved human rights record... “
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goulash...

The point is that we are in about 1985 where breakdown has set in, but the end is nowhere near in sight. (Chernobyl disaster (1986) and the cost of clean up greatly accelerated the economical collapse. Source: Gorbachev https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernob...) These people have known better times and are mostly just sitting waiting for them to return. Specifically some are waiting for the estate to open again.

> meager food?
I don’t remember anyone complaining about food or staving. I guess people here are receiving free and heavily subsidised food. Maybe that is contributing to making them stay?

Thanks J_BlueFlower. How do you know the time frame is 1985? Is that made clear in a later chapter? Knowing it is a collective farm is helpful. I have only read the first half of chapter 1 so far.

This is why I think those things in Chapter 1:

Schmidt stealing:

Futaki: "You wanted to make off with the money! Am I right? . . .Tell me, is Kráner in on this?" . . . .

Schmidt: Schmidt was forced to nod. "Up to a point."

Futaki: "Sons of bitches!" Futaki raged . . . . You and Kráner meet up before dawn, planning to make off with all the money and then you expect me to trust you?! . . . ."

I can't think of anything else that can be going on in this conversation other than some kind of theft of money by Schmidt and Kráner. It seems that Kráner and Schmidt were going to make off with some kind of money that didn't belong to them. Since they have just come back unexpectedly early from selling the livestock, I had assumed that the money from this sale must be the money they were going to steal or "make off with." And if this money doesn't belong with them, I suppose the livestock must have belonged to the collective? Otherwise, why would Schmidt be so terrified of being discovered? And why else would Mrs Schmidt say to him, "Have you lost your minds? Do you think you can get away with all this?"

Meager Shelter:

Bad window: Raindrops were gently trickling down both sides of the window because of the finger-wide crack that ran all the way from the wooden beam to the window frame."

Rampant mold in house: "Green mildew covered the cracked and peeling walls . . . . a cupboard that was regularly cleaned, were also mildewed, as were the towels and the bedding . . . ."

No lighting: "the lightbulb having gone out . . . ."

Even the best cutlery rusted: "cutlery saved in the drawer . . . a coating of rust"

Broken table: legs of the big lace-covered table having worked loose . . . ."

The living quarters don't seem at all pleasant. In fact, the place is so bad that they have started sleeping in the kitchen to get away from the mold.

Isn't this why Schmidt and Kráner are trying to steal the money, to get away from these unpleasant living conditions? Futaki says that to remain there would be like a "sour taste on his tongue" that has the taste of "death." Schmidt wants the money to use wherever he flees to after this.

Meager Food:

"tasting the same narrow range of food . . . . sipping at the wine rarely enough set in front of him"

"the vaguely functioning articles in the bare kitchen . . . ."

I think JBF mentioned 1985 cos that's when it was first published

I am 2/3rds way through, and there is a lot more going on than just allegory/metaphor - there are Kafka-esque things (like when Halics drops his money to join Kerekes's) and echoes of Bulgakov's "Master & Margarita", but it still seems most like a Beckett play to me!

Greg wrote: "Thanks J_BlueFlower. How do you know the time frame is 1985? Is that made clear in a later chapter? Knowing it is a collective farm is helpful. I have only read the first half of chapter 1 so far.
..."

I was going to reply to your first post that you may discourage yourself trying to get everything straight and apply meaning too early but it seems you have caught on. The book is heavy on atmosphere and as mentioned Beckett like absurdity. I focused on the generalities rather than specifics. Rather than specific of cheating focus on cheating exists. Instead of Specific stealing note the moral decay. etc. I feel thinking in abstracts helps in appreciation if not understanding.

Sam wrote: "I was going to reply to your first post that you may discourage yourself trying to get everything straight and apply meaning too early but it seems you have caught on. The book is heavy on atmosphere and as mentioned Beckett like absurdity. I focused on the generalities rather than specifics. Rather than specific of cheating focus on cheating exists. Instead of Specific stealing note the moral decay. etc. I feel thinking in abstracts helps in appreciation if not understanding"

Thanks Sam!

Darren wrote: "I think JBF mentioned 1985 cos that's when it was first published"

Ah, I see, thanks Darren!

I have read to mid-chapter 5:

> How do you know the time frame is 1985
Guess from publication date.

>Schmidt stealing:
Or maybe they took bribes, to look the other way while someone else did the stealing or falsely reported a quota meet?

I agree that it doesn’t matter. The point is something shady or worse.

Maybe there even is a point in the book being unspecific in many places: It is simply not friendly to the reader. We shouldn’t feel at home here.

I wasn't sure during the first chapter, but I liked the mysterious "resurrection" at the end of that chapter. And I am enjoying the second chapter very much. There are a lot of indirect (and direct) criticisms of the political system in this chapter, and I like the way some of it plays out, especially symbolically.

Spoilers for Chapter 2:

It's brilliant, the two clocks that tell different versions of the time; there is literally a different reality and timespace for what Irimiás calls "the exploited." But here, the exploited are whoever happens to have less influence in the political system.

And then, there's the petty bureaucracy. Any time a large group of people are grouped together, there is bound to be some amount of bureaucracy, whether in a government, or a corporation, or a church, or in anything else where large groups of people gather together.

But the government system being described in Chapter 2 is a special hell of bureaucracy, where individual holders of power have a completely unchecked sway. They are not beholden to any real laws; instead, as the captain says quite honestly, they all live under "the law of relative power." Those with more influence and power can do pretty much anything they want to those who have less. It's a cult of personality, really. And much as that can seem attractive in a Dirty Harry sort of way - let's cut through the red tape! - with any system that allows for unchecked individual power, there can't be any consistency or restraint or rule of law. Ironically, the lack of accountability to the law only increases the arbitrariness of the way power is used without reducing bureaucracy at all.

In this government, if the person you report to (Szabó) has retired, the new person you report to can turn everything on its head at a whim and in a moment. There is no way to know what will happen.

The captain behaves like a petty tyrant, and he has been corrupted to such a degree, that "decay" has filled "every cell of (his) body." Krasznahorkai describes him as a living corpse. He's impervious, "covered in armor", and he's literally "swallowing light," in other words, making the world darker for everyone else. But all of that armor doesn't do him much good at all; in the most important spiritual and practical senses, he's already nearly dead.

The action in this chapter is absurd, with Petrina and Irimiás shuttled from one bureaucrat to another, whether to the Registry of Prostitutes or the Captain. All of them are equally petty, lawless, unrestrained, and careless. In an environment like this, anything can happen. Their world can morph into an absurdist farce so quickly. All it takes is one summons to be sucked into its maw.

Has Esti’s age been mentioned?

Chapter 5:
(view spoiler)[
I imagine Esti as very young. At least less than 9. For her not to know that money do not grow at age 5-6 would not make her a retard. Specially if she had heard about a “money tree” somewhere before like a fairy tale.

I am not convinced she is a retard. As far as I remember, it is not only her brother who refer to her as a retard. But maybe she has autism and learned to speak really late?

I also imagine we are in November (the rain, the mud and the darkness). At what age would you know that nothing spouts in November?
(hide spoiler)]

Meta for chap 1-5:
(view spoiler)[
It seems to be the same day we have now had from 5 different points of view.
For instance Esti meeting the doctor from chapter 3.
(hide spoiler)]

JBlueFlower, looking forward to opening your spoilers as I get further!

Greg wrote: "JBlueFlower, looking forward to opening your spoilers as I get further!"

like an alternative advent calendar!

Darren wrote: "like an alternative advent calendar!"

Ha, ha, Yes!! :)

I struggle more than usual to keep track of who is who. No real spoilers:

In Shady = In on the shady plot in first chapter.

--- The estate:---
Futaki: farmer from the estate. Hears bells. Sleeps with Mrs Schmidt. In shady. Limps.

Mrs Schmidt: Quick thinking women who likes to dance and dreams about escaping with Irimiás.
Mr Schmidt: Rounding up cattle with Kráner. In shady.

Mrs Halics: Reads bible and “spent half [her life] peeking through curtains to keep an eye on affairs outside”
Mr Halics: Not a strong reader

Mrs Kráner: “spent half [her life] peeking through curtains to keep an eye on affairs outside”
Mr Kráner: Rounding up cattle with Schmidt. “Up to a point” in shady.

The Doctor: Used to work as a Doctor. Alcoholic. Thinks he has a bad memory.

---The Horgos is a sperate farm---
Esti Horgos: The youngest Horgos. Very young girl described as retard.
Younger and Elder Horgos sister: One is named Mari. Both meets the Doctor in the mill.
Sanyi Horgos: Esti’s brother. Very likely the same person as “the sneaky Horgos kid”. Has a photo of Irimiás and Petrina

---Others:----
Irimiás and Petrina: Believed to have been dead for 18 month, returning to the village.

Kelemen: Bus driver

Kerekes: Rich farmer. Not from the estate. Mr Halics is afraid of him.

The landlord: Pub owner. Was cheated by Irimiás last time he was in town.

The headmaster: Besides the Doctor the only one with an education. The others find he repulsive.

Finished part I

The tango is clearly not only a dance. But what is it?

(view spoiler)[
Analysis on the Internet point to that the book is structured like a tango: Six steps forward and six steps backwards.

For me it seems that tango also is about dominance. So far it has been women taking the lead, both in action, physically and actually stating the dance. Mrs Schmidt starts the dance with Mr Halics, and she is a fulll head taller than him. We hardly even know the men. We have seen the world from Mrs Schmidt perspective many times. Have we ever seen it from Mr Schmidt’s? Mrs Horgos shows up in the bar. I don’t think Mr Horgos has ever been mentioned. Why is that so? Does Krasznahorkai want strong females or does he want the men to appear weak?
(hide spoiler)]

Other random observation: Some people do not have names: The Doctor, the Headmaster, The Landlord.

Part 2 chapter 5 (the second chapter):

We have a date!!

Someone mentions that is autumn and a bit later landlords says: “Look, it is precisely twenty-six years since I last slept five and a half hours without waking“

The 1956 revolution: Soviet tanks entered Budapest in the early morning of 24 October 1956
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...

So the date is 24 October 1956 + 26 = 24 October 1982

J_BlueFlower wrote: "I struggle more than usual to keep track of who is who. No real spoilers:"

I've been doing the same thing in making a list for myself J_BlueFlower. It's definitely hard to keep track of who all these people by memory because some of them are barely mentioned and it takes quite a while for them to pop up again.

Thanks for the list!

J_BlueFlower wrote: "Historical background:
From 1956 to 1989 Hungary had “Goulash Communism“
”the Hungarian People's Republic implemented policies with the goal to create a high standard of living for the people of Hungary coupled with economic reforms. …. relative cultural freedom in Hungary, giving it the reputation of being "the happiest barracks" … during the 1960s to the 1970s.... elements of regulated market economics as well as an improved human rights record... “
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goulash...

The point is that we are in about 1985 where breakdown has set in, but the end is nowhere near in sight. (Chernobyl disaster (1986) and the cost of clean up greatly "

This historical background is really helpful J_BlueFlower! Based on the text, I had assumed it was some sort of communist system, but I wasn't sure.

I finished Chapters 1-3 now.

There are a few different ways to take this book; I can take it as a dark philosophic exploration of the human condition, but I can also take it as a criticism of the political system of the time and the effect of that system the human beings living inside of it.

Chapter 2:

The first half of Chapter 2 very much reads like a critique of the political system, with its soul-crushing bureaucracy and with the many petty dictators within that bureaucracy that appear to be completely above any law or constraint.

But the second half, with Irimiás' increasingly dark view of the working class (who he calls "peasants"), feels different. The workers aren't tragic heroes under this system; they're foolish, mean-spirited, and violent.

Irimiás describes them as "servants that work at a castle where the master has shot himself, . . . at an utter loss as to what to do." But they're not to be pitied. In his eyes, they're vulgar and will become more and more suspicious of each other, to the point of violence. "Like mad dogs they fall on whatever remains and tear it to bits." That does seem to be what is happening at the closed collective farm in chapter 1-2; so this isn't just Irimiás' bias. According to the novel's action, he seems right about them. Additionally, he says, "they can't do without a shadow [of their master], just as they can't do without pomp and splendor either." It's as though the region's population has some deeply rooted tragic flaws that the political system knew how to exploit, perhaps?

Chapter 3:

The third chapter with the doctor is fascinating.

There are some passages in here that give clues how to take the book, though they're oblique. The doctor says this about the book he's reading, that has quotes interspersed throughout the chapter, ". . . the book being written now in the present and now in the past tense--confused him, so he couldn't be sure whether he was reading a work of prophecy regarding the earth's condition after the demise of humanity or a proper work of . . . history based on the planet on which he actually lived."

This is an intriguing quote, and the same could be said about this book in some senses. Is Krasznahorkai criticizing the system that people were actually living through at that time? Or is it a kind of larger prophetic philosophical statement about the way human beings behave after social collapse? Or maybe it is a bit of both?

The doctor himself is a really fascinating figure. He's worried about his memory, yes, but it's important to ask: why?

It seems that this system they are living through is putting these fears into him. He seems to feel that it's a desperate matter of survival for him to keep track of what all of the other inhabitants of the closed collective are doing. And he's not wrong to be worried. After all, Irimiás and Mrs Kráner are in the process of trying to steal money from the collective and flee as the book begins. He's also right to be suspicious of Mrs Kráner's reasons for quitting; after she quits abruptly, he goes back through his notes on her to see if he can figure out what she might be up to. Here, it shows how he uses the notes; they're a tool to gain control over a dangerous and unstable situation. As the doctor says, he "depended on others for his supplies of food, spirits, cigarettes, and other invaluable items." He needs to know what the other inhabitants are up to so he can make sure that the things he needs will keep coming. If he forgets or misses one crucial detail, it could cost him big.

That's why he organizes his entire life so that he can watch out the window and observe the other inhabitants with as few interruptions as possible.

"one superflous movement might mask an onset of vulnerability"

In other words, if he makes a single extra unnecessary movement, that distraction might cause him to miss something outside the window that makes him vulnerable, and he might not have time to react to it. He doesn't want to miss any important events, such as Irimiás coming back from selling the cattle. And in fact, his approach works - he is one of the few in the collective that actually sees Irimiás come back.

But this attempt to protect himself comes at such a terrible price! It seems almost pointless for the doctor to be alive anymore, and it's an illusion, his feeling that by this constant observation, "everything was under his firm, omnipotent control." He's trying to bring a terrifying situation under control by doing this, but in reality, horrible things can still happen.

There are some beautiful and chilling images in this section. I liked the doctor's image of "ancient prehistoric screams preserved" where human emotions are preserved like fossils in the land.

And it's interesting that several passages of geographical history of that area of Hungary are scattered throughout the section. That does make it seem that the book is a comment on the particular things facing that region and not only general comments on the human condition as a whole. It is "Central Europe" that is described as sinking, and it is "the landmass that is inner Hungary" that breaks down.

The most mysterious thing in the book so far are the few suggestions of something supernatural in the sounds that the various characters hear: the strange disembodied bell that Futaki hears in chapter 1, the strange humming that Irimiás and Petrina hear at the bar in chapter 2, and the strange bell that the doctor hears in chapter 3. Each of the chapters has an event like this one, and I don't know what it means . . . but it feels like a surreal announcement of something uncanny that is on the way and that will later come.

J_BlueFlower wrote: "Did you understand the beginning of chapter 4?
"

That was a little weird J_BlueFlower, in terms of understanding why Halics did that.

I think (view spoiler)[that both the landlord and Halics are afraid of the farmer because he is a big strong brute capable of violence.

But as to why Halics drops his coins, I'm not 100% sure.

I thought maybe that since the farmer was drunk, Halics at first assumed that the farmer didn't notice he dropped his own cash. And maybe Halics was trying to drop his coins as a pretext to bend down to steal the farmer's cash, but then Halics changed his plan when he realized that the farmer was going to see him stealing it. Since Halics realized he was going to get caught if he stole the farmer's money, he just gave it back to him instead.

But then again, it could also be that Halics wanted to get on the farmer's good side by making an excuse to be there to pick up the farmer's money for him?

It's confusing because Halics definitely hates and fears the farmer. I don't feel fully satisfied by either of my guesses, but those are the only options I could think of. (hide spoiler)] But I'm really not certain.

Chapter 4:

So far, this chapter was the hardest for me to know how to take. There was lots in this chapter I was curious about. The poor horseflies who at the beginning of the chapter are flying in a continuous infinity symbol path of pain, smacking against the dirty porcelain again and again . . . . They remind me of a lot of the various characters in the book. So many of them are stuck in different ways in their own loops like the horseflies:

* Mrs. Halics is stuck in a cycle of condemnation, judgement, and envy; she seems to envy the attention Mrs. Schmidt gets.
* Mrs. Schmidt is stuck in a cycle of desiring what she can't have in that small town, dreaming of luxuries that are out of her reach, dreaming of lovers that are better than the ones she has.
* Kerekes is stuck in a cycle of his own anger and brutality.
* Mr. Halics is trapped by his own cowardice; he cannot even show his hatred for Kerekes and instead slavishly does his bidding.
* The landlord is trapped in dreaming his own fantasies of importance. "As the importance of the numbers grew, so did he . . . " So, in this fantasy of importance, he endlessly computes sums as he hides in the back room.

I'm curious what people make of the strange story Irimiás told the landlord about planting onions. Was this something superstitious? As in, the landlord planted the onions and had an unexpected windfall and thinks that Irimiás' suggestion gave him the luck? Or was it instead a business enterprise where the landlord buried the onions and made a windfall selling them? I'm thinking it was a strange superstition thing, but I'm not certain from the text.

Once again, there are strange premonitions; in this chapter it is Mrs. Halics who sees the star falling and hears the disembodied ringing bells. There has been an unaccountable humming or ringing of bells heard by at least character in every chapter so far.

Darren wrote: "if you think it's dark so far JBF, I'd brace yourself for chapter 5 :oO"

I just finished Chapters 5-6, and yes, oh my!

I happen to be reading this book at the same time as St. Francis of Assisi, and I have to say, it's a weird juxtaposition!

Chapter 5:

This chapter was extremely bleak! I think what happens with the cat and Esti is possibly revealing of Krasznahorkai's thoughts though.

It says that Esti attacks the cat because she realizes she is stronger than the cat.

"'I'm stronger than her,' the thought flashed across her mind."

Here, Esti is clearly acting out things from her own relationship with her brother Sanyi. The sorts of things she says to the cat sound like the sorts of things Sanyi would have told her to justify his own horrible behavior: "Don't think I'll feel sorry for you! You can defend yourself if you like, if you think you can . . . ."

But in this case, she enjoys being in the position of not feeling powerless. With Micur, she is on top. "The joy and pride swelled within her from moment to moment sent her into feverish overdrive" as she attacks the cat. For once, she feels "the consciousness of her own inexhaustible grandeur," and occupying this position of power over the life of another being makes her feel "a universe with her at the center." She feels important.

But this isn't just a celebration of power for power's sake. There is a price to be paid. After she has behaved in this cruel way toward the cat, that "joy" soon turns sour. "She . . . came to a full consciousness of what she had done . . . . She was choking with shame and regret . . . ."

I was relieved to see this because at first I thought the book was heading toward the outright sadism of The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea!

The next realization is that there is no way for Esti to fix her relationship with the cat. She has no route to forgiveness or redemption, because the cat as an animal could never be made to understand what she had done. "And that this was how it would remain forever: useless now to call her, useless to hold her in her lap, Micur would always be at the ready, her eyes would always retain the terrifying, ineradicable memory . . . ."

Once she realizes she can't fix it, she decides to kill the cat. This of course is a highly disturbing decision. And I suppose it's not too surprising as she has lived her whole life being abused by everyone; she is so accustomed to abuse that it is natural to her.

There's one very interesting passage that reflects on this:

"looking into the light of those eyes she understood the terror, the despair that might almost make another being turn against itself . . . ."

Living in terror and despair can result in self-destructive behavior. Of course, this is true, and of course Esti knows what it is like to be in the position of the cat. Is that what has happened to all of these people in the book? They have lived under inhumane conditions so long that they have fallen into self destructive infinite patterns or repeated behavior, like the horseflies?

Esti's final action of self destruction, which she takes in naive belief of an instant trip to heaven is highly disturbing to say the least! And the callousness of her brother Sanyi in explaining the mechanics of how her father committed suicide has certainly showed her how to do this. That legacy of abuse she suffers from Sanyi has a direct line to all of the tragedies of this chapter. It seems quite likely that Sanyi in turn had suffered abuse from others, which he passed on to her, but that's just a guess.

Chapter 6:

There's a lot of intriguing imagery in this chapter, both the dance itself and the cobwebs that interconnect everything.

The cobwebs aren't the typical symbol for interdependence though; they are an alerting mechanism to the hidden spiders. When anyone moves, the spiders can know. They spin their alerting net over everything.

The bleakness of Chapter 5 continues here. God is described as a butcher at one point, with his knife flashing in the light.

I'm not sure how to take some of Chapter 6, but I'm very curious to read what will happen in the next chapter, when it seems that Irimiás and Petrina will finally arrive in the village! Their message and behavior might make more things become clear.

J_BlueFlower wrote: "Has Esti’s..."

I completely agree with what you say in your Chapter 5 spoiler J_BlueFlower!

(view spoiler)[I don't think Esti has any kind of real mental disability. I think her brother calls her "retard" as part of his general pattern of cruelty and abuse toward her. The whole family makes her feel like a useless bother, and that's an unimaginably cruel way to treat a kid." (hide spoiler)]

I also liked both of your points about the tango in your ending part 1 spoiler. I didn't think of what you found online, but now that you say it, it sounds right. And I definitely agree with your second comment about (view spoiler)[power (hide spoiler)]

I am finished. I will sum up "soon".

I have not figured out the general relation between how men and women are described and why. The women is many times described as physically larger then the man, and Part 2 chap 3 has "the striding, manly figure of his wife". Yet the women never have names of their own. They are Mrs X. What is Krasznahorkai trying to tell by that?

Re Esti in chap 5 part 1:
(view spoiler)[
she had divided the remaining contents, brotherly fashion, half and half, ... she placed the paper bag on her left side on a rotten board, because she wanted to be sure her brother wouldn’t miss it.

What is Esti doing here? She wants her brother to follow her? Know what she did?
(hide spoiler)]

J_BlueFlower wrote: "Re Esti in chap 5 part 1:"

I'm not really sure about the question in your spoiler J_BlueFlower, but my guess:

(view spoiler)[I think she is so young that she naively believes her brother that taking the poison will send her to bliss in heaven.

She leaves the second half as you say for her brother to follow her, but it is not malicious. She thinks her brother will want to go to heaven too; so she leaves the second half of the rat poison there for him. (hide spoiler)]

Sounds right. It fits with my impression that she (view spoiler)[is not retard, but maybe seems dumb because she understands everything literally. (hide spoiler)]

I'm getting close to finishing now. Only a couple chapters left. Part II, chapter 4 is one of the most intriguing chapters in the book and also for me, the most obscure in meaning so far. Thinking of what I've read so far as a whole, my mind keeps going back to what seem like the two most symbolically significant events of the book: (view spoiler)[Esti's killing of the cat and her reasons for it (hide spoiler)] in chapter Part I, chapter 5 and (view spoiler)[the mysterious vision of Esti's glowing, floating corpse (hide spoiler)] in Part II, chapter 4.

More on that when I finish, but for now, some thoughts on the chapters:

Part II, chapter 6:

It's intriguing, the religious imagery that (view spoiler)[Irimiás applies to Esti. It's described tentatively though. She's either a "martyr" or a "sacrificial lamb" or an "innocent victim." And she either died "for us" or "because of us." It's interesting that all of these things apply to the Christ story too, and dying "for us" is a very common Christian theme.

Irimiás also talks of "salvation," but he's talking of an earthly one, a sort of heaven on earth. And of course, we know that whatever he's planning, it's completely fraudulent and not to the villagers' benefit.

I'm not sure what this might mean yet, that the conman Irimiás co-opts religious imagery and terminology to steal the villagers' money. Maybe there's a mocking going on? (hide spoiler)]

Part II, chapter 5:

It's hard not to feel sorry for (view spoiler)[the villagers here, as stupid as they might be.

Interesting that the villagers pass a "tin figure of Christ" on their journey. Tin to me speaks to something far more common and less grand; this isn't a bronze or marble figure, it's tin.

And Mrs. Halics counts 13 dragons in the beaten copper stove in the dilapidated Almássy Manor. Interesting that the Biblical Book of Revelation talks of a dragon that gives power to earthly beasts that demand worship.

Ending on all the villagers' dreams puts me in mind of prophecy.

On a practical level though, the poor villagers have been completely swindled by Irimiás, and they have ended up entirely in his hands. (hide spoiler)]

And now for the most ambiguous and most intriguing chapter . . . .

Part II, chapter 4:

It's chilling and uncanny, this (view spoiler)[strange glowing corpse that rises and flies. Once Irimiás sees it, he becomes so angry at his own fear and vulnerability that he punches Petrina. But the two of these scoundrels feel some real fear here - they fear their own futures in hell just as much as they fear the uncanny vision.

It's interesting this confusion with Petrina between "evangelist" and "evangelical", the one doing the converting and the other who himself believes.

Although Irimiás does seem for a moment really afraid, he soon tries to push things back to his own gospel of his "network of dependency," his spider's web of nefarious connections that he uses to feel the movements of his prey. This is very like the landlord's hidden, uncanny spiders in Chapter 6, who leave a network of webs over everything so they can know when anything moves.

Irimiás is called the "Lord of Misrule" in this chapter too, and he has a competing gospel to that of the glowing, ghostly Esti. His is a gospel of the exploiter or the manipulator. Although Esti acts out violence on the cat, she instantly regrets it; she does still care on some level, and among these desperate, fallen people, she's perhaps their best example of self-sacrifice.

According to Irimiás in Part II, chapter 6, "every sin we commit against ourselves is an act of self humiliation," and these sins committed against the self are the "graver fault." But Esti thinks of someone else (her brother) at the end, leaving for him what she believes is a good thing of the remaining half of the rat point, to get him into heaven. She's completely deluded, but her final intentions are pure. (hide spoiler)]

Part II, chapter 3:

Again, Irimiás abuses religious imagery and terminology to (view spoiler)[manipulate the villagers here. He gets them to do what he wants by flattering them in calling them the "chosen few." The "chosen people" in the Old Testament are the people under their One God's covenant.

And he says that the villagers must learn the skill of "knowing the good from the bad." This is pretty much word for word what the serpent tells Eve in the garden. Ironically, he's trying to manipulate them into the exact opposite. He's turned them onto their heads so that they have no idea what they are doing or what is happening; they have ended up completely at his mercy and within his hands. They know nothing at all.

It's terrifying to think what is in store for these villagers, given the weapon dealers that Irimiás has been talking to. (hide spoiler)]

Only two more chapters to go!

J_BlueFlower wrote: "I have not figured out the general relation between how men and women are described and why. The women is many times described as physically larger then the man, and Part 2 chap 3 has "the striding, manly figure of his wife". Yet the women never have names of their own. They are Mrs X. What is Krasznahorkai trying to tell by that?"

I don't know, but I was intrigued by some of those depictions too J_BlueFlower. After I finish the final chapters, it will be interesting to think of the book as a whole and try to make some sense of all this.

I want to get my arms around the book myself a bit, and then, I might tackle some of Sam's links. I do like the book, despite its bleakness. There is a lot of complexity here, especially in Part I, Chapter 5 and Part II, Chapter 4, and I think what draws me most so far is how these unfortunate villagers behave under their extreme deprivations in this political and social system . . . the effect this environment has on them as human beings, even on their basic human need for community and meaning. They have been distorted at the root. Perhaps even the manipulator manipulates because of those deep-seated corruptions, like (view spoiler)[the basically good hearted Esti who becomes so affected by the fear and powerlessness of her condition that she ends up torturing a cat (hide spoiler)].

It's very possible that I will end up taking something different from this book than Krasznahorkai intends. As with any of the best works of art, the work can become much larger than the author's intent. Just as Animal Farm has enough depth that it is much larger and broader than a comment on historical communism, this work feels larger too.

I'm extremely curious to know the author's intent though. This book has enough ambiguity in key places that I think it has a broad range of possible interpretations. Who knows though - the last two chapters might really make things clear?! I don't want to talk too much until I finish the final 20 pages!

My general impression:

I really do not know what to make of it. It is easy to say that confusion and lack of answers and truth (whatever that is) is the intended message of the book. But is it?

I read the English translation. I don’t think it is a good translation. The women in the bar is reading a “dime novel”. Also later Estis’ money is called “dimes”. Maybe some confusion is due to the translation.

(view spoiler)[
I gave up on the religious overtones. The bells ringing in the start could just be a really distinct thing for the less careful reader to notice that the start and the end is the same. But all the super natural happening on the side? Is it some subtle critique of totalitarian regimes that tells you prices whatever has never been lower, while you can see with your own eyes that is not true? I do not know what to make of it.

The clerks chapter: They are government people working on an official report and signing with Irimiás name? Was it all a government trick to get them to move and start working elsewhere?
But why it he telling them to report observations? Are he making it up to give them purpose or cover for the real purpose (to physically move them), or are they now taking part in a spiderweb-like network of surveillance? I don’t know. And maybe it is the point: We cannot know?

The end chapter with the doctor taking control. Did not see that coming. Is the Doctor Krasznahorkai on some level? Or is it a way of having the story loop, so that it just seems to move, but stays the same.
(hide spoiler)]

I have waited on my rereading till I finished other obligations but will finish it now in the next couple of days. I have been reading some of the comments. I haven't seen many comments related to irony, satire, or black humor. I think it is important to see the novel with respect to those terms as well as the more serious. I appreciate Krasznahorkai most when seeing his work in terms of his stylistic skill and in terms of his ability to stimulate intellectual thought on the larger questions of life through his sometimes comic yet pathetic depiction of his characters in their bleak and uncaring world within which they have little control of their inevitable fates. I try and let specific questionable details remain unanswered because there are many unanswered questions in life and I think Krasz is hinting that with his ambiguity and mystery. Also think of Gogol, Bulgakov and Kafka. Characters are often exaggerated, grotesques, and representative rather than realistic. So when we think of the doctor for example, do we look at him as a specific realistic doctor or a representation of the failure, corruption, and impotency of science and skilled education in the political and social world Krasznahorkai presents us? I feel more satisfied reading his novels with the second thought in mind but don't abandon the realistic because I think his literature straddles the realistic and the representative.

Sam wrote: "So when we think of the doctor for example, do we look at him as a specific realistic doctor or a representation of the failure, corruption, and impotency of science and skilled education in the political and social world Krasznahorkai presents us?"

I love this in particular Sam. It's a really good point!

Though I'll admit that I found nothing in the book funny. It likely might be intended to be but nothing made me laugh personally. Then again, I didn't love Gogol so I might be prone as a reader to miss it.

Irony, satire, and exaggeration, that for sure I see in spades!

I finished the book, and it will take me a little time to gather my thoughts.

But per Sam's point, the social/political satire are particularly strong in Part I, chapter 2 (with the hell of bureaucracy) and Part II, chapter 2 (with the clerks' euphemisms). The structure is interesting, with this particular focus in the second as well as the second-to-last chapters of the book.

And there is a very clear philosophically bleak view of the human condition, which is summed up beautifully in the final chapter (Part II, chapter 1).

"as if the whole of time were . . . . a brilliant conjuring trick to . . . establish a vantage point from which chance might begin to look like necessity . . . ."

where the happenings of the universe, which are really just pure chance, might be made by mental tricks to appear to have some kind of order

". . . and he saw himself nailed to the cross of his own cradle and coffin . . . ."

life from birth to death is just a suffering, a nailing on a cross

". . . without a single possibility of any way back to life, because by then he would know for certain that all his life he had been playing with cheaters who had marked the cards and who would, in the end, strip him even of . . . that hope of someday finding his way back home."

Ouch.

For me, this book doesn't have quite as sharp a satirical focus as Mikhail Bulgakov (as in Heart of a Dog). And yet, it does have a sharper satire and a deeper resonance than what I've read of Gogol.

It also shares some of the philosophical bleakness of certain works by Kafka; it puts me in mind of the depth of In the Penal Colony, with its slightly blasphemous reordering of Christian imagery that also has both complexity and depth. For example, in Part II, chapter 1, the ineffectual elderly man striking the bell and manning the "cracked trumpet" (trumpet of judgement day?) and the "shattered altar." It's oblique enough to be resonant and interesting.

I'll post more when I have more time later.

J_BlueFlower wrote: "The clerks chapter: They are government people working on an official report and signing with Irimiás name? Was it all a government trick to get them to move and start working elsewhere?
But why it he telling them to report observations? Are he making it up to give them purpose or cover for the real purpose (to physically move them), or are they now taking part in a spiderweb-like network of surveillance?"

I'm very curious about everyone's thoughts about this question.

Like you, J_BlueFlower, I'm not 100% sure. But it seems to me that something very ominous is going on.

Irimiás and Petrina were talking to arms and explosives dealers just prior to this, and in the clerk's documents, it makes several references to the villagers' stupidity making them perfect for the role they're going to play in the plot.

My best guess was that the villagers are going to be the fall guys for some really terrible plot, where they take the blame for some violent scheme that some faction of the government is planning.

Irimiás tells all of the villagers that they will need to keep careful watch where they are being placed. It's possible that he's going to use them to gather information for him to use in his planning of a violent plot? Maybe the government needs to know who in the church and other places are going to be there at various times so that they can time the events? Or maybe they just need the villagers conveniently placed to take the blame after the events?

I'm guessing some kind of political murders with weapons or bombs? I don't know, but I feel very, very worried about what is going to happen to the villagers after this book ends.