North & South discussion

For discussion of chapters 17 through 25

How glad I am that Cynthia values Molly!

There seems to be some sort of intrigue between Mrs. Gibson, Cynthia and Preston. Initially, I thought that Mother and daughter both hated him, but then Mrs. Considered having him spend the night to escort the three of them to the ball. What is going on with these three? Had it been some sort of twisted love-triangle?

As long as Mr. Gibson feels that his wife is taking any concerns to do with Molly off of his hands, he'll let her do anything.

Also, Mr. Gibson's everything concerning his treatment of Molly concerning his awful marriage to that woman, suggests to me that the relationship between father and daughter really wasn't all that special. While he could pay Betty and Miss Eyre to care for her, and he, Mr. Gibson did not have to trouble himself with his daughter until young Mr. Coxe's attempted overtures, the relationship perhaps at the beginning of the book seemed special, but really was not special IMHO.

At the beginning of the book, Gibson seemed to have a non-19th C caring relationship with his daughter. I was dreadfully mistaken. However, his profession is very demanding.

It seems that Osbourne did not get the memo of disregarded it with regard to the dreams that his parents had for his academic career and who he was "supposed" to marry.

Just what kind of human being is Mrs. Gibson to have failed miserably in inspiring any love from her only child?

That afternoon that Mrs. Gibson spent at the Towers--how enjoyed it. She had hoped to put on airs but the Cummors were so awful to her and really showed how little they regarded her and put her in her place. I particularly enjoyed how the Earl mortified her by joking about "dinner" at his table full of guests that she refused to eat any luncheon after being starved during her long wait for the Countess. TeeHee

How sorry I am for the poor Squire!

My attitude toward Clare has not wavered, as I complete chapter 22. I still believe she has an agenda, which is going to only benefit herself. Now that her daughter, Cynthia has arrived at the Gibson's residence, I think her attention to Molly is to only show herself up to her daughter. Her fussing & buying Molly clothes & bonnets is not sincere in my opinion. When will Mr. Gibson finally realizes the woman he married is a poor substitute as a stepmother for his daughter. Clare seems to bring more grief to Molly than before she became part of their family.

I think Mr. Gibson wanted freedom from worrying about Molly and concern with domestic matters. Regardless of his wife's insincerity toward his daughter and the misery done to her, I see that he'll much care.

Don't forget the time they were living in, he wasn't just passing off the responsibility he thought Molly was getting to an age where she needed a mother. He picked a pretty woman whom he had heard well of and who was supposed to be good with children... he should certainly have gotten to know her better first!

He certainly took the plunge in all haste! Some men tend to want to fix things and be done with it. I think Mr Gibson saw what he perceived as a problem, thought of the correct solution and went about 'fixing' the problem with the first choice that appeared agreeable. It's such an un-romantic approach to marriage.
I think Mr. Gibson does regret his choice, but he can't let himself dwell on it. That would be too painful, and it's too late anyway. There's a section right near the end of chapter 15 that clearly hints his misgivings on what he's done:
"He never allowed himself to put any regret into shape ... but he was very angry [when Mr Coxe's bachelor uncle called for his nephew to his home] directly after Mr and Mrs Gibson's return form their wedding journey...."
Poor Mr Gibson got married for nothing! How aggravating.

Chapter 20: does anyone know what a "senior wrangler" is?

Sr Wrangler is the top Math undergrad at Cambridge. Once considered the highest of intellectual achievements in Britain.

Is that one of the drawbacks of reading the free kindle version: no footnotes?
My book has helpful footnotes here and there, like the one explaining 'senior wrangler.' Sounds like a cowboy term to me! Lol.

I have a kindle version & have footnotes throughout. Although it wasn't a free down load, it was $2.99.

I'm reading the free kindle edition--no footnotes.

Would any of you have any thoughts on the Mr. Preston, Mrs. Gibson, Miss Kirkpatrick interactions?

I think there is something going on. Both Mother and daughter seem uncomfortable.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "Would any of you have any thoughts on the Mr. Preston, Mrs. Gibson, Miss Kirkpatrick interactions?

I think there is something going on. Both Mother and daughter seem uncomfortable."

I think there's definitely something in their past interactions that we haven't been clued into yet. I'm in chapter 26 now - the dance! I'll try to be patient until next week.

Tadiana, I'm dying to know what is going on between those three.

I guess like you, I'll have to be patient.

There's something going on between them for sure! I'm just starting chapter 30, so hopefully something will reveal itself now that Mr. Preston has taken over Mr. Sheepshank's position.

Oh dear!

Now mother and daughter will have to see Preston more often.

I don't have the book in front of me so I can't tell you which chapter it was, but I thought it was so heart-wrenching how the Squire personally and his family generally kind of disintegrated (view spoiler)[when his wife died (hide spoiler)]. She really was the heart of that family.

Tadiana wrote: "I don't have the book in front of me so I can't tell you which chapter it was, but I thought it was so heart-wrenching how the Squire personally and his family generally kind of disintegrated [spoi..."

Yes, very sad.

Roger seems to have fallen under Cynthia's charming, demure spell. At the card party, he spent most of his time taking to her instead of Molly. :(

The feeling isn't really mutual. I was struck by Cynthia's summary of the evening was a casual "Oh! it wasn't very entertaining..."

I just loved how Cynthia made fun of her mother's initial insistence that the girls couldn't attend the card party because they "weren't out yet."

Heavens! Taking stairs two or more at a time ... shockingly unladylike! lol.

Trudy, I thought that Mrs Gibson's claims that the girls couldn't attend card party bec they were not "out" was ridiculous and pretentious.

I think that she sees herself as some sort of "leader" of "society" such as it is. Ha

Yes, 'pretentious' is a perfect word. That sums up Hyacinth pretty well. She is all about appearances. Really no real substance to her. All thinks about is how she is perceived. What a wasted life!

Hyacinth's pretentiousness is the reason why I took such evil glee over her treatment at the Cummor's when she spent the afternoon there. They showed her how little she matters.

However, I have to say the the Cumnor's were awful for treating what I see as an invited guest in that way. Perhaps the Earl and Countess really did not see her as a "real" guest since they persisted in calling her "Clare" and sending her to fetch things round the house. The Countess certainly did not want inflict Mrs Gibson's society on the duchess. The two of them were kept apart and Hyacinth's low status was reinforced to the duchess.

I'm struck with how unhealthy Cynthia and Hyacinth's relationship is. The one thing that makes me feel sorry for Cynthia is that she seems to have been really unloved as a child.

Andrea, I agree with you about the way Hyacinth was treated--the constant underlining of class differences. If she's pretentious it seems that some of it is because she's been developed the wrong kind of pride thanks to the Cumnors.

I like Cynthia. she's honest about not being able to love anyone except herself. How can she when she has never been shown love? She's good to Molly and I like the way she stands up to her mother.

The Hamleys are breaking my heart. If only father and son were not too proud to speak to each other. They're both being stubborn and stupid when they should be taking comfort in each other. Roger seems nice enough. He's kind to Molly but then like most men, his head is turned by a pretty face.

I think Mr. Gibson thinks of things in a scientific rational way. Hypothesis: I need a wife and mother for my teenage daughter. If I ask this governess woman they all think highly of at The Towers she'll be worthy. He then tries and is trying not to admit he failed in his judgement.

Hyacinth not only doesn't care about Molly, she doesn't care about her husband's patients, dismisses his work and tries to put on airs she isn't entitled too. She was just awful at the party when (view spoiler)[Lady Harriet came to talk to Molly. (hide spoiler)] She's constantly putting others down to make herself look better but Lady C and The Duchess are showing Hyacinth that she's still a nobody.

QNPB, I think the reason why Cynthia is likable despite her flaws, is that she isn't mean-spirited, well, at least not unjustifiably so. Selfishness combined with mean-spiritedness can be a misery to others.

As for her little barbs to her mother, I think Hyacinth too insensitive herself to be made miserable by them.

Molly starts to grow a backbone with Hyacinth. I'm glad she has Cynthia to back her up. Mrs. Gibson's feelings and plans for the Hamley brothers could not be more obvious.

Osborne needs to man up and tell his father the truth about what's going on. His father will rant and rave but I think eventually all would be forgiven.

QNPB, I understand what Hyacinthe's plans are for Osbourne--to try to secure an offer for Cynthia. But I don't understand what she's about with Roger.

Andrea (Catsos Person) wrote: "QNPB, I understand what Hyacinthe's plans are for Osbourne--to try to secure an offer for Cynthia. But I don't understand what she's about with Roger."

I think she first encourages Osborne as a match for her daughter and tries to put Roger in his place as a younger son. When she discovers (view spoiler)[the doctors have been discussing Osborne's health, she encourages Roger to come around again. (hide spoiler)]

QNPB,that was really creepy. It's one thing to be ambitious but that little detail made her seem quite predatory.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I think she first encourages Osborne as a match for her daughter and tries to put Roger in his place as a younger son. When she discovers (view spoiler)"

She's so petty and grasping. (view spoiler)[At first I was afraid Dr. Gibson had breached doctor-patient privilege and told Hyacinth that Osborne had a grave disease, but I think QNPB is right--she's figured it out from what she's observed. (hide spoiler)]I really can't stand her, and Dr. Gibson's abandoning of Molly to her care and washing his hands of it makes me very unhappy with him.

Tadiana ♕Part-Time Dictator♕ wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "I think she first encourages Osborne as a match for her daughter and tries to put Roger in his place as a younger son. When she discovers (view spoiler)"

She's so petty and gras..."

I too have a lowered opinion of Gibson for the same reason.

I think that he loves his daughter as far as he is able to leave her in the care of servants and now the odious Clare.

Now that he's passed her off to a new "mama," he couldn't be bothered.

I don't know if we can condemn Dr. Gibson for being a man of his time but his wife is utterly odious. It's one thing to be ambitious or even greedy but she's outright completely disgusting. She could at least encourage Roger to pay attention to Molly or find someone for Molly but she doesn't care about Molly at all. Molly is a little too passive for me. I like Cynthia's spark and snarkiness. she always has something to say to her mother, though most of it goes over her mother's head.

QNPB, with regard to Cynthia's snarkiness to her mother:

I think despite Clare's education, she really isn't that smart bec her daughter's snarky comments seem to go over her head in some regards.

Cynthia seem to know that she is smarter than her mother.

I'm finding Molly's behavior (and Roger's as well) a fascinating study of the concept of self-sacrifice and patient forbearance. At times it comes rather naturally from her warm heart, but at other times we see Molly struggle a great deal to maintain her poise. I like that it IS a struggle, for it makes her more realistic. She's trying so hard to be good, to follow the ideals of behavior she feels are paramount to follow.

I'm not sure I can put too much blame on Mr Gibson. What could he do? Talking to his wife about things would probably be utterly useless. She lives in her own little world. He made a poor decision.

Trudy, that is a good point about the realism of Molly's "struggle" to be good.

I hate to keep mentioning Roger's sacrifice, but since Osbourne isn't "grateful" enough to suit me, maybe a more "realistic" struggle in Roger's selflessness would make this easier for me to not be annoyed by the whole situation.

I'm sympathetic to Osborne's plight. He didn't count on falling in love with exactly the wrong person (according to his father). He does seem to be in quite a pickle.
Roger is young and free. His future is wide open with possibilities. He's trying to help his family as best he can. Is he too good to be true? Maybe he hasn't run across any major life trial yet. He's working on the peripheral troubles of his father and brother's making.

Trudy wrote: "I'm sympathetic to Osborne's plight. He didn't count on falling in love with exactly the wrong person (according to his father). He does seem to be in quite a pickle.
Roger is young and free. His ..."

Trudy, I guess you have point about Osbourne. And if he were not being financed by his brother, that poor girl he married wouldn't have food or shelter. I don't feel that she is to blame for Osbourne's thoughless and poor timing.

I'm on my phone and it doesn't allow me to quote - my reply is about the footnotes - I have a free kindle download - it's the whispersync edition though sometimes there's more than one because prior to getting the audio I had a free download too. When I check X-Ray I find all kinds of info : senior wrangler is on the third tab under terms and it lists locations and the quote where it was used. Another reason why I love Kindle. Not that it's helping me read any faster though :)

I'm reading on my iPhone too Fanny, via Kindle app.

It has changed my life.

Love having always a book in my pocket! And I love how easy I can jump between devices for kindle.

Exactly.

I pull it out everywhere, such as link line at the grocery store, standing at the bus stop.

I number of books that I am able to complete is through the roof compared to when I only read dead tree format.

Yes everywhere even in the bath :)

Poor Mr. Osborne delaying a confrontation or a confession never makes it easier. I'm in awe of Molly, I find my patience tested enormously to such a degree I'm rooting for Cynthia because she says the things I'm sometimes thinking. And I guess some people haven't seen the adaptation and hence in the dark about Preston's role in the past

I don't know anything about Preston. This is my first read of the book and I haven't seen the adaptation.

I saw the miniseries but don't remember Preston at all. Thanks for the tip on the Kindle. I will see if I can get X-Ray on the Windows app. I did it once before. I did look up senior wrangler in the Kindle dictionary.

Chapter 17

Poor Mrs Hamley… I’m sorry she didn’t know the truth but at least Molly is a comfort. Hyacinth comes off very badly over her attitude to her illness.


Chapter 18

Osborne and the Squire want their heads knocking together, they’re hurting each other for nothing. Osborne should have told him the truth and got all the yelling over with. Some very sad chapters. If Molly had really been a daughter of the house she could possibly have made them talk to each other.

Osborne isn’t very kind to Molly, it wasn’t her fault that Roger didn’t see her.


Chapter 19

No one is less interested in Cynthia’s arrival than her own mother… leaving her to be met by stranger, how sad. Despite all the troubles that follow, Cynthia was a really consolation to Molly, ready to accept her as a sister… which was fortunate because if she had been like her mother she could have made her life really miserable. Instead she sympathises with what her mother has done to the Gibson’s household.

Cynthia may not be the sort to love people deeply but I think it’s been at least in part taught to her by her mother, she has not forgotten that it hurt to lose her father and she doesn’t seem to want to feel more than she does. Even her opinion of herself, that she is not good, seems to be something she has been taught to accept to some extent.

There’s an immediate hint of mystery around Mr Preston isn’t there, Cynthia reacts strongly to mention of him.

Chapter 20

Hyacinth was a little too obvious in not wanting Mr Preston to know that Cynthia was there wasn’t she! And even more obvious in her match making schemes for her daughter and Osborne.


Chapter 21

Cynthia is always standing up for Molly and defending her with her mother, if there were nothing else you’d have to like her for that.

Poor Molly, she doesn’t get a chance to ask Roger all the things she wants to know and Cynthia doesn’t care for any of the details but gets all his attention.


Chapter 22 - 24

The poor Squire… these are some depressing chapters. There’s so many misunderstandings between him and Osborne too... though I think if Osborne really wanted employment he should have made a push to find out what the true state of his father’s affairs were and learn the estate management. He is the heir after all. It’s cleverly written however and you can see how they both can be completely mistaken in their dealings with each other.

I love the butler’s opinion of Roger, “He’s a merry young gentleman, and over-fond of bringing dirty, slimy creatures into the house; but he’s always a kind word for a man who is hurt in his mind.”

There’s a lot of little humorous lines in the writing like this which I like a lot.


Chapter 25

Isn’t it odd that in order to say she gets invited to the Towers, Hyacinth is willing to be treated almost as a servant… you’d think it would be below her perceived consequence. Though of course she makes up things to make her seem more important when she gets home.

The quote of the butler's opinion of Roger is priceless! Gaskell is humorous and searingly serious at the same time. Roger isn't doing what is considered proper, but that his heart is the right place is absolutely everything.

Hyacinth and Cynthia are intriguing character studies. Hyacinth is practically a moral idiot. She simply does not seem capable of processing genuine sympathetic feeling. She can only profess and make affectations. Does she actually love anyone? I think she may be an extreme product of the 'look at me' society in which vanity is supreme and lives are spent on trivialities. Such a vapid existence! I feel heavily sorry for Mr Gibson.
Cynthia is a victim of her mother's lack of true affection. Cynthia is fairly good inspite of her neglected childhood experience.

I don't think Hyacinth is capable of caring for anyone other than herself. It was better for Cynthia to be sent away to school than be raised by her unfeeling mother.

There's quite a bit of humor in this story. I like the Miss Brownings, they're typical of the characters Gaskell wrote about in Cranford. I also like Lord Cumnor even though his sense of humor is sometimes bizarre.