North & South discussion

For discussion of chapters 41 through 47.

It's the little details in this story that makes the whole thing come alive with real meaning. In chapter 46 there's a moment where Gaskell describes Molly musing deeply on an incident that just occurred and she's barely listening to Miss Phoebe prattle on, but she's alert enough to realize that she's just been asked a question and needs to respond! It's one of those very real moments where the reader can totally relate. We've all done that!

And then there is the dinner with just Mrs Gibson and Molly where Mrs Gibson insists on going through the formality of being served dessert when it's well known by everyone that Molly and her stepmother won't eat any. It's a perfect example of Hyacinth's constant concern for form over substance. Absolutely impractical. Just the opposite of her husband, I'd say.

Well. Now we know what Preston's game is and I don't care for him at all. He's ruining everything. I no longer like Cynthia because of her inability to deal with the problem. She's a complex character for sure. She's never been shown love or kindness so she doesn't except Mr. Gibson to help when Molly keeps urging her. He might scold but he wouldn't kick Cynthia out of the house or want her to run away. Cynthia is being too dramatic about telling Mr. Gibson.

At the same time I want to throttle Molly for being so self-sacrificing as to take on her stepsister's problem on her own. It causes even more problems. My heart aches for Molly because of the old gossips. However, Mr. Gibson still has his head in the sand in regards to Molly. He doesn't want her to have suitors or marry yet... ever? She acts child-like at times because her father treats her that way. Hyacinth was supposed to help make Molly a lady but obviously she doesn't care or really know how to do that. Her insistence upon dessert is vulgar to the extreme. It's just another way she spends her husband's money faster than he can make it. She's always quick to spend his money, especially on herself and Cynthia. He's a country doctor which I assume means he gets paid very little if at all. Possibly even in goods from some of his patients. Gibson knows what he's worth and before he remarried I'm sure he kept a moderate household.

Now it's been a year since Osborne was examined by the doctors and he's still breathing but barely! It sounds like he is depressed on top of his actual illness.

I also wanted to do some bodily harm to Hyacinth when she rejects Roger once again because she believes Osborne is OK and Cynthia could get a town lawyer. She thinks only of money and nothing of the character of the man. We don't know much about the London lawyer but I'm sure Roger is more worthy. Obviously I know where this is going but it's becoming more obvious who belongs together and who doesn't.

Trudy the writing does feel very modern and the characters are easy to relate to. It doesn't read like a Victorian domestic novel at all.

I hadn't thought of it in that way, QNPoohBear, but you're right - it has a very modern feel and isn't hard to read as some Victorian authors are. Aside from the customs of the time and outdated formalities, the characters, dialogue, and general situations are somewhat timeless. Complications in human relations are always messy - in every century!

As this is my second read, I've been more alert to notice that in the time since Roger left it's mentioned here and there that Molly is not as healthy as she was. She's lost some of her spirit and energy. This seems to be a recurring Victorian pattern with Gaskell. It becomes difficult to determine how much 'low spirits' is affecting a person's health and how much is actually physical disorder or weakness of some kind.

Trudy wrote: "As this is my second read, I've been more alert to notice that in the time since Roger left it's mentioned here and there that Molly is not as healthy as she was. She's lost some of her spirit and energy. This seems to be a recurring Victorian pattern with Gaskell. It becomes difficult to determine how much 'low spirits' is affecting a person's health and how much is actually physical disorder or weakness of some kind. "

This is an interesting observation. We discussed it with Mrs. Hale and now Osborne and Molly. Molly has a LOT on her little shoulders. I would fully expect her to crack at some point. She's burdened with everyone else's secrets in addition to her own not fully realized secret.

QNPoohBear wrote: "Well. Now we know what Preston's game is and I don't care for him at all. He's ruining everything. I no longer like Cynthia because of her inability to deal with the problem. She's a complex charac..."

QNPB, I think part of the reason that Cynthia is adamant that Gibson not be told about her "predicament" is not worry about being kicked out of the house by her stepfather, but losing more of his good opinion. She did not come off well in the incident with Mr Coxe in his eyes at all. I think that she suspects that with Gibson's high opinion of Roger, that he thinks her "not fiancé" is too good for her. Cynthia is very concerned with controlling her image in the minds of others even if she admits to Molly that she is not a good person. CK can't bear to be seen in the wrong and she truly respects Gibson.

Up until Coxe offered for Cynthia, I was touched by his seeming constancy in his admiration for Molly even now that he is "rich though still red-haired."

Preston is really a horrible person. Not at all a man of breeding at at all.

Chapter 41 - 44

Hyacinth is really beginning try Molly’s patience, I admire her forbearance, I would have lost my temper long ago.

I can’t help sympathising with Cynthia, Mr Preston is not a gentleman! I can understand her not wanting Mr Gibson to know as well, because she wants him to love her and doesn’t understand him well enough to trust him.

Louise Sparrow I would have lost my temper with Hyacinth almost right from the beginning!

Me too QNPoohBear!

I haven’t forgotten this but having already gone through it once I’ve let myself get a little distracted. I’m determined to finish this read through though and to watch the miniseries again when I get to the end!

Chapter 44 – 47

How strange that the more she confides in Molly the more Cynthia pulls away from her… and I can’t even dislike her for it because it’s just a part of her nature and not deliberately unkind.

And Molly’s friends might like to gossip but to actually start acting towards her differently because of their own stories, I like them less than Cynthia! I can’t imagine forgiving them for such behaviour if I lived there.

I could not have lived in that time, I could never have kept silent.

Louise Sparrow wrote: "Me too QNPoohBear!

I haven’t forgotten this but having already gone through it once I’ve let myself get a little distracted. I’m determined to finish this read through though and to watch the mini..."

I don't think that Cynthia had what we might call "a confiding nature." I think in the case of Preston she was driven to confide in desperation to try to get help. But the problem is she knew that these confessions would diminish her (Cynthia) in her confessors eyes, therefore, causing her to withdraw from Molly.

And yes, that was terrible that people who had know Molly all of her life could talk about her in that way. I was shocked.

Yes, Cynthia has never really had a close friend she could trust that way before.

Gaskell gives us such a sympathetic view of Cynthia, that you find you can't hate her, even when her behavior is not the best toward Molly. You see that her nature and her upbringing causes her to act the way she does.

Since gossip and a girl's reputation makes the rounds in several of Gaskell's works, it must be a point that the author wishes to drag out into the open to expose it as a wholly harmful and unmerited practice. It goes along with Gaskell's General themes of encouraging people to know each other - to find out the truth of an individual for yourself instead of labeling people based on what little you think you know.

It is a sad exposistion of how easily some allow gossip to overrule their own judgment. Wasn't one of the Browning sisters loyal to Molly's character?

Not so much to her character, as to her.

The younger sister brought the story home because she believed it, convinced her sister who was inclined to think better of Molly, and then decided that she wouldn't believe it because she loves Molly too much.

Trudy wrote: "Gaskell gives us such a sympathetic view of Cynthia, that you find you can't hate her, even when her behavior is not the best toward Molly. You see that her nature and her upbringing causes her to ..."

I think Gaskell was very clever in how she presented Cynthia who perhaps could have been utterly repellant to reader, instead inspires sympathy.

Initially, I thought that Cynthia might not be kind to Molly because of her sophisticated education and her looks. But I couldn't hate Cynthia since she was kind and loving (in her own way) to Molly.

Gaskell places the blame for the deficiencies in Cynthia's character at the door of her criminally neglectful, selfish, stupid mother.

I found Cynthia to be a sympathetic character but I didn't like the way she dumped her problem on Molly, which then ruined Molly's reputation. Molly was too much of an innocent to deal with a scoundrel like Preston.

QNPoohBear wrote: "I found Cynthia to be a sympathetic character but I didn't like the way she dumped her problem on Molly, which then ruined Molly's reputation. Molly was too much of an innocent to deal with a scoun..."

Yes, Cynthia was the cause of Molly's problems (loss of reputation).

I didn't like the way that Cynthia burdened Molly with her problems.

But I think that Molly was the first person on whom Cynthia felt she could rely and didn't want anything.