Atheistically Speaking Book Club discussion

This is the discussion thread for the first quarter of Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space:

Wanderers: An Introduction
1. You Are Here
2. Aberrations of Light
3. The Great Demotions
4. A Universe Not Made For Us
5. Is There Intelligent Life on Earth?

Edit: oops, I mis-numbered the chapters and forgot one.


I read this book a few years ago, and I gave it 5 stars then, which puts it above 90% of the books I've rated. I'm having a hard time remembering specifics from this book from other Sagan books I've read, so I'm excited to read it again. So far it's my favorite Sagan book, though I just got Billions & Billions and hope to read it next week.

The only books I've read by Sagan are Demon Haunted World and Varieties of Scientific Experience. DHW was great but I've become disenchanted with the bit about James Randi and the 'Carlos', Jose Alvarez hoax. VSE was excellent and would recommend it over the latter, especially to anyone entering the skeptically minded world.

I've read The Demon-Haunted World, Cosmic Connection, Cosmos, and Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors. They've all been good, but my favorite was PBD.

I've wanted to read VSE, but my digital library doesn't have it. I guess I need to look into getting it from the physical library or buying it. My library has Contact as well, but I'm not so sure about fiction by Sagan.

our book club is sooooo trending! see:

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2015/...

kvetching point: why are there no audiobooks for anything other than Contact?

Rachel wrote: "kvetching point: why are there no audiobooks for anything other than Contact?"

Probably because it's the only fiction book. It looks like it's a lot more popular than all his other books as well.

I use a text to speech app to turn all books into audiobooks whenever I want. The computer voice was annoying at first, but now I'm so used to it I can hear Sagan or whoever reading it even though the computer voice is female.

Yes, audiobooks have existed even since the days of vynil LPs, but the audiobook format didn't really come into its own until just a few years ago with the advent of Audible.

E-books were an easy conversion, because publishers have needed to have text copies shared internally for years and years. In a few years, it'll be an expected part of authorship to read or have read an audio copy of your book as part of the publishing process, so going forward that'll be less of a problem.

Compare that to hiring somebody to go back and read some publishing house's entire catalog into a microphone, and you realize it may be quite some time before a lot of this stuff is released.

Although...
*time passes*

I can't find an audiocassette version--even assuming you could play it, but I did find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZtwE...

I'm just surprised no one picked this up after Cosmos was rebooted...mostly considering how many much more terrible books HAVE been audio'd.

Rachel wrote: "I'm just surprised no one picked this up after Cosmos was rebooted...mostly considering how many much more terrible books HAVE been audio'd."

Copyright issues for reprints are never simple; maybe it was that.

There's definitely a PBD audio book out there... I've got it on my iPod! Read by Sagan himself.

Here I am, so proud of myself having gotten through Chapter 1 so quickly!

Turns out it was just the introduction. LOL!

Wanderers: An Introduction
"For all its material advantages, the sedentary life has left us edgy, unfulfilled. Even after 400 generations in villages and cities, we haven’t forgotten. The open road still softly calls, like a nearly forgotten song of childhood. We invest far-off places with a certain romance. This appeal, I suspect, has been meticulously crafted by natural selection as an essential element in our survival."

It was strange for me to think that the desire to explore is somewhat instinctual, but it makes sense. Traveling has always been dangerous or at least unpleasant - why deal with spending months on a leaky ship or even hours on a stuffy airplane when you have such a comfortable home? And yet I've always had an almost irrational desire to travel and see the world, and I don't think that's uncommon. I can see how exploring and taking advantage of new surroundings would have a big advantage evolutionarily.


Chapter 1: You Are Here
"Look again at that dot. That’s here. That’s home. That’s us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every “superstar,” every “supreme leader,” every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there—on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam."
...
"It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we’ve ever known."

I love how well this chapter explains our insignificance in the universe while still making humanity and our home feel so important. This chapter should be depressing, but it's actually very uplifting and optimistic.


Chapter 2: Aberrations of Light
"The immense distances to the stars and the galaxies mean that we see everything in space in the past—some as they were before the Earth came to be. Telescopes are time machines. Long ago, when an early galaxy began to pour light out into the surrounding darkness, no witness could have known that billions of years later some remote clumps of rock and metal, ice and organic molecules would fall together to make a place called Earth; or that life would arise and thinking beings evolve who would one day capture a little of that galactic light, and try to puzzle out what had sent it on its way."
...
"[T]his self-serving attitude seems as natural as breathing. It draws sustenance from the same psychic wellsprings as sexism, racism, nationalism, and the other deadly chauvinisms that plague our species. Uncommon strength of character is needed to resist the blandishments of those who assure us that we have an obvious, even God-given, superiority over our fellows."

This last quote made me laugh because it was said almost exactly by a speaker at my college graduation, but with a very different meaning. After a long speech about how we were all graduating only because of God, and that without God we would fail in our future lives, he went on to explain that we "should fight sexism, racism, atheism... and all the 'isms' in order to better serve God". (This was at a private but secular school by the way.)

Like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Sagan never said he was an atheist, using the explanation that he had no proof against god, so he was therefore agnostic. But man, he was not afraid to get in and rip apart religion or the idea of god. This was written in 1990, far before the "new atheism" books.

@Bill
so, now you can be proud to go so quickly through the Introduction!

@chapter 1, page 1, ""THe entire Earth is but a point.......minute corner of it. Marcus Aurelius."" That's some 2000 years ago!

Somehow the fact, that in ancient (even pre-christion) times our insignificant place in the cosmos was already contemplated and discussed by the wise, stikes me as a warning. I mean, why did these ideas not flourish and gradually took over the world? Why , to the contrary, did an idea such as christianity more or less exactly that?

Perhaps it is explained by 'meme-theory': Christianity is an idea invested in propagating itself, whereas free-thinking is not (never heard a free thinker say: 'Listen to me and do as me!!: do not anybody tell you what to do!'). Hence, the procreation succes of free-thinking is lower than that of christianity (or religions in general). ..... that's a grim prospect......

And o, I loved the footnote on page 31! A couple of months ago I posted a similar comment on AS facbookpage. Any claim that the universe 'was made for life (or even us)' becomes quite ridiculous if one runs the numbers. It really is like saying: the Eifeltower was built to hold the layer of paint on top of the pinnacle. (indeed the layer of paint needs the Eifeltower in order to stay put)

Marcel wrote: "@chapter 1, page 1, ""THe entire Earth is but a point.......minute corner of it. Marcus Aurelius."" That's some 2000 years ago!

Somehow the fact, that in ancient (even pre-christion) times our ins..."

I appreciate that analogy with the Eifel Tower, although it fails to convey the orders of magnitude between humans and the Cosmos. I've been straining my brain for a more scalable version but the best I can do is 'The ocean was made for my boat to float in.'

I enjoy how these opening chapters tackle the human perspective of self importance, but I fear these are the same ideas that give theists the drive to attack science and huddle closer together. I personally love being an insignificant speck of protoplasm, while the theist I speak with tend to shudder at the implications.

Jared wrote: "I enjoy how these opening chapters tackle the human perspective of self importance, but I fear these are the same ideas that give theists the drive to attack science and huddle closer together."

I just don't understand that! It amazes me that so many adults can believe something will be true if they just wish for it hard enough and stick their heads in the sand. I love this paragraph from chapter 4 that illustrates why pretending we're important just won't work.

"How much more satisfying had we been placed in a garden custom-made for us, its other occupants put there for us to use as we saw fit. There is a celebrated story in the Western tradition like this, except that not quite everything was there for us. There was one particular tree of which we were not to partake, a tree of knowledge. Knowledge and understanding and wisdom were forbidden to us in this story. We were to be kept ignorant. But we couldn’t help ourselves. We were starving for knowledge—created hungry, you might say. This was the origin of all our troubles. In particular, it is why we no longer live in a garden: We found out too much. So long as we were incurious and obedient, I imagine, we could console ourselves with our importance and centrality, and tell ourselves that we were the reason the Universe was made. As we began to indulge our curiosity, though, to explore, to learn how the Universe really is, we expelled ourselves from Eden. Angels with a flaming sword were set as sentries at the gates of Paradise to bar our return. The gardeners became exiles and wanderers. Occasionally we mourn that lost world, but that, it seems to me, is maudlin and sentimental. We could not happily have remained ignorant forever."

My contrary nature is such that I rarely have anything to say if it is not disagreement; and Carl Sagan is such a perfect being that I never disagree with him. Suffice it to say I'm having a very positive emotional reaction to this book and I'm very, very happy that we chose to read it. The only difficulty I will encounter is to refrain from finishing it before the schedule demands so that I can still participate in the discussion.

I'm with you on that (Chris) Dale. I had a lovely discussion with my wife while I was reading CS Lewis, she asked why I would read something that was making me furious. I explained that it's fun for me to get mad at dishonest reasoning, I was duped for too long by such saccharin tripe that there is a great joy in tearing it apart. Sagan leaves such a strong trail for us to follow his reasoning that even if you manage to find some error in his information, it would be hard to show he was attempting to purposefully deceive us.

Jared wrote: "Marcel wrote: "@chapter 1, page 1, ""THe entire Earth is but a point.......minute corner of it. Marcus Aurelius."" That's some 2000 years ago!

Somehow the fact, that in ancient (even pre-christion..."

THat Eifel tower analogy was not mine really, I lent it from Stephan Gould, who compared the purpose of evolution being to produce humans, with the purpose of the Eifeltower being to hold the paint on top. For that, the scales may actually be ok.

Your ocean and boot analogy, although I didn't run the numbers, may also not capture the ratio. I fear its more like: one atom of your boat to all the atoms of the oceans....

Jared wrote: "Marcel wrote: "@chapter 1, page 1, ""THe entire Earth is but a point.......minute corner of it. Marcus Aurelius."" That's some 2000 years ago!

Somehow the fact, that in ancient (even pre-christion..."

THat Eifel tower analogy was not mine really, I lent it from Stephan Gould, who compared the purpose of evolution being to produce humans, with the purpose of the Eifeltower being to hold the paint on top. For that, the scales may actually be ok.

Your ocean and boot analogy, although I didn't run the numbers, may also not capture the ratio. I fear its more like: one atom of your boat to all the atoms of the oceans....

Now I have some numbers. Googling told me that there are some 10 to the power 44 atoms of water in the oceans. Sagan has a ratio of volume of 1 : 10 to the power 37.
So a proper ratio would be 10 ot the power 7 (10 million) atoms of your boat relative to all the oceans of the world.

But remember 10 miljoen atoms is really not much. Even a splinter of wood of your boat will contain far more atoms than 10 million.

The vastness of the universe is just beyond our grasp.....Sagan is of course not the first one to point that our. But he does a very very keen job in these first chapters to step-by-step demolish any fealing of ''humasn are most relevant to the universe'' one may have!

Chapter 5 was the first chapter of the book that was what I thought the book would be like. The first 4 were a convincing case against a god.

In his descriptions of immigrants, nomads and wanderers the intro made me imagine a world of space travel more like Guardians of the Galaxy than a benevolent Star Trek with an Enterprise filled with scientific observers.

Chapter 3: I loved the idea of the discovery of craters on the moon and spots on the sun blowing holes in the idea of geocentrism and a perfect universe.

Chapter 4: I think he does a good job of identifying the reasons some people do not enjoy science.
"It almost seems that the scientists are getting some weird satisfaction out of putting humans down. Why can't they find a way in which we're superior? Lift our spirits! Exalt us!"
That is similar to the argument I hear against atheism. To which the reply is to look into Humanism. It's not the job of Atheism, or science, to exalt us.

"What shall we make of this: an edifice abandoned early in construction by the architect?" Sounds like the making of a good sci fi story where god gets bored creating Earth and moves on, forgetting about it and coming back to it to discover what it has become. 'Hey what happened to all those giant lizards I created? What are these fleshy things that seem to think they are in charge?'

Chapter 4 ends with the fantastic line: If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.

I just joined - but I have the audiobook for Pale Blue Dot (as well as the physical book). They used to be difficult to find, but with audible.com, and simplyaudiobooks.com, it's much easier these days. You used to have to go to services for the visually impaired, like reading for the blind, to get a decent library on audiobook.

I grew up immersed in Christian circles, and it is amazing how frequently people use the "but atheism would mean my life doesn't have some cosmic meaning!" argument for god. I'd challenge all these people to read these chapters, particularly Chapter 3, and not still come away with a sense of awe for the universe and for life itself. The Bible does say that pride goeth before a fall, so it's particularly fitting that religion has had to walk back its notions of humanity's privileged place in the world.

The first few chapters of Pale Blue Dot make an impassioned, almost poetic plea for scientific understanding over religious belief. Sagan addresses claims of human privilege and meaning imparted onto us from on high by slowly, methodically and convincingly undercutting all of those claims.

"If we don’t know what’s real, how can we deal with reality? For practical reasons, we cannot live too much in fantasyland. Shall we censor one another’s religions and burn down one another’s places of worship? How can we be sure which of the thousands of human belief systems should become unchallenged, ubiquitous, mandatory?"

Even the most eloquent, well-thought-out and impassioned theistic notions about humanity and its place in the universe ultimately are reduced to unsubstatiated wishful thinking.

"Of course it appeals to our vanity. “What a man desires, he also imagines to be true,” said Demosthenes. “The light of faith makes us see what we believe,” cheerfully admitted St. Thomas Aquinas.

Many arguments for theism appeal to inutition but Sagan counters with the obvious but not popular:

"...the Universe is not obliged to conform to what we consider comfortable or plausible."

BTW, am I the only one who reads this imagining Carl Sagan narrating the book?

I agree with Mike that chapter 5 was where I expected the book to start and that the first four chapters were a little bit of a (pleasant) surprise. Chapters 1 and 2 were a brief history of astronomy and chapters 3 and 4 were essentially an argument against the fine-tuned / design argument. These two chapters would be a nice starting reference point in a discussion of fine-tuning. I am pretty sure that I heard the most recent guest on the podcast, Elijiah T., make an off-hand comment that he considers fine-tuning to be evidence for the Christian God. It would be nice to hear his reasoning since out of all of the arguments for a divine being I find this one to be the most specious.

My favorite line from the book came from chapter 4, page 50.

"No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."