Project Mayhem discussion

There are a lot of people who beat around the bush...sugar coat things.

I most certainly fit in that box.

I used to believe that I was being cautious of what I said as not to harm, offend, infuriate, or belittle anyone. I actually felt better because I thought I was such an empathetic and caring individual.

The reality is that it is quite possible that I was more afraid of how someone else's anger or hurt would make ME feel.

Is that selfish? Are you like that? Would you prefer it if someone with unfavorable news let you down easy, told you kind of blunt-like, or just kept their trap shut?

When I realized that I was literally walking around in a stasis of fear, I immedifately stopped. I spoke my mind, ruffled feathers, and was more straitforward than I'd ever been in my life.

I learned two major lessons:

1) People don't usually react the way you think they will

2) Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter.

...I know you've heard it before, but it sure hits home for me now.

Sure I've had to tone it down a bit, some white lies are just plain good for business. I think that I've found much more finesse with it, but I gotta say. I feel so free. I have no fear.

SO

Spill your guts...

Where do you stand? How honest are you with people? Are there certain topics that you will always stand firm on? Are there situations in which you find it easier or more beneficial to schmooze?

How do you find the middle ground between saying what's on your mind and screening it? Or have you?

Umm.. how do I put this without beating around the bush.;-)
No, really, tough question. In reality, I have found that being up front and honest with people is the only way to get things done. It is hard sometimes to do so because you might feel like you're saving someone from disapointment or you don't want to be confrontational. However, there are situations where a more diplomatic approach is better, but, giving an honest straight forward answer is essential. I have been in other situations, especially when the other party is being dishonest, where I have been VERY blunt, almost to a hostile point. Giving an honest or truthfull answer is key. Dancing around the situation, or walking on eggshells doesn't necessarily help. Being straight forward, whether or not you are being outright blunt or diplomatic, will earn you more brownie points than bullshiting, or even lying (even if it's a little white lie. There are ways around that too.)

I have been reading more philosophy books lately and although I haven't gotten to this particular book by Harry G. Frankfurt On Bullshit I have found a youtube interview he did which I think kind of sums up the difference between telling the truth, lying, or just plain bullshiting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q_h5Z...

At the bar, we have a name for bullshiters. We call them Yuppy Schmoozers, and you can pick them out very quickly. The words that come out of their mouths I take with a grain of salt. It's hard to take someone seriously that isn't honest.

Honestly, I am honest!!!
For more than just ethical reasons, I don’t want to waste time!
Bull*&% wastes time!

The only person I may still sugar coat things for is myself and that is only in situations where I am too yellow bellied to step up. That never lasts long, sooner or later I swallow the bitter and move my on.

I was raised Mormon and having things sweetened so that you will swallow what to the rest of the world would be absurd is part of the culture! To say the least I decided real young I would not tell a person something was grey when I knew damn will it was black.

And, besides all that, the core of most humans on this planet have had the bull@#$% piled on them since birth and anyone on trying to find any sort of truth about the world has to first scrape that away before having any chance at seeing things clearly.

---If, I see that you are a talking out your ass for any reason I will tell you! And, for hell’s sake if you see that I am talking it out mine it is your duty as a fellow human to tell me!!!

i find lots of antagonism within the religious left because of the very well funded War on Reason. I don't wanna talk outta my ass and give dates, but i suspect somewhere after WWII the education system was given an overhaul by the Feds and it became an arm of the government.
I think any country who decides that their politics will govern education, religion, and poverty is absolutely ass backwards; these issues are inter-related and those with the power do not want to raise well-educated, worldly citizens.

On another note, i think the information age is the worst thing that could've happened for the US Governmental System; theyre struggling to keep the lid shut on all kinds of secret projects and doings.
MK-Ultra for one, the Tuskegee Experiment, treatment of Japanese-Americans in the 40s and 50s, the anti-homosexual agenda of the 80s...

so on and so forth.

So, here's my question:

To what practical end should we be fighting for?
It seems improbable that we can topple, arguably the most pervasive, most powerful hierarchy humankind has ever seen without violence. Being a pacifist, this is out of the question.
So should we be fighting for our own well-being, our surroundings, our loved ones...
Certainly not for the toppling of the system only to have it replaced by yet another one.

*sigh*

I guess i did the unthinkable. I rambled on the anti-rambling thread.

Dangit....I wrote like this whole thing and then I clicked on the Harry Frankfurt link and it changed this page, lol

sigh

to reiterate I guess...

-Good going to those of you who are capable of being straightforward (Rob included, lol).
-Thanks for the links Father...can you add that book to the group?
-Gabers, you're right, the gov is trying to bullshit and trying to cover it up, but let me ask you this...a lot of that stuff has come out to the light and nothing's happened. No one has done anything. How can we get to a place where we don't just hear about atrocities, but we try to prevent them, atone for them, or punish those responsible?

Are there too many atrocities to tackle? Is that why we don't make a move...are they to just that small a population or are they not on like, slavery's level, is that why they don't inspire more action? What is the root of all of them...how can we nip them in the bud. For instance, if we could get more people to realize that religion is bullshit...there would be less war; less violence; less judging; abortion, gay marriage, and separation of church and state would all be looked at differently; hell, marriage, and in turn divorce, would be looked at differently; there would be an extra day for people to relax if everyone didn't have to go to church on Sunday.

If people would eat better and exercise and demanded that their food was better we could all but prevent disease, thereby preventing a lot of medical problems, capitalism raping, lawsuits, insurance issues, and senior citizen problems.

But that won't happen anytime soon...and if it did, you're right Gabe... there may be something else unholy filling these catalysts' shoes. Plus, there's this need to feel like they're culling the population with these things, I guess.

Will do. Just picked up the second book On Truth and will be reading it today. Hopefully.

Well, believe it or not, this seems to be just another example of how religion, politics, education and things of that nature have shoved us into yet another black/white position. I mean, if you think about it. Most of us were raised to think that lying is a sin that gives you a first class ticket to hell. In reality. The word "Lie" sounds so bad and is given so many negative connotations that people forget that it's just a word. It's a lot like love. I love cupcakes...I love nature...I love my mom. All 3 different kinds of love...1 word.

That's why they came up with other words and terms like enamor, smitten, puppy love, etc. So in the same respect with lying, you have alternatives to better explain what you mean, like deceive, purger, or white lie, to add varying degrees. But still, notice which words still get used the most. Love and Lie.

So anyway...it's not really always something that should be avoided or frowned upon just because someone chose to say that the act in question was a "Lie" and not, say, a misdirection or an embellishment.

Either way, I think beating around the bush and sugar coating are forms of lying, sure, but they are warranted in cases where one must be diplomatic, courteous, or polite. My point with this post was more so to say that in today's world, regarding religion, medicine, politics, food, our children...I'm glad that I am no longer overly concerned with being diplomatic, courteous, and polite.

Just a note and a little lightheartedness.

I just finished On Truth by Harry G. Frankfurt. His points on truth are a little disconcerting as he somewhat shoots down the idea that what we see as truth might not be true and kind of implies that truth is based on fact and what can be proved. I put the book down for too long so I may have misunderstood him, but I found it interesting that what we may see as the truth, others may not. He does elaborate more on the importance of truth and the possible consequences of lying are. However, he kind of defends lying in certain circumstances i.e. when both parties know they are lying and being lied to. My mind is still spinning on this one. I'm going to reread On Bullshit and then reread On Truth just so I can wrap my mind around it. I'm thinking his point is don't open your mouth unless you can accept the consequences that may follow.

On another note. Another funny email, involving truth and philosophy, from my friend Chad. Hope you like it.

Keep this in mind the next time you are about to repeat a rumor.

In ancient Greece (469 - 399 BC), Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom.

One day, an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, 'Socrates, do you know what I just heard about one of your students?'

'Wait a moment,' Socrates replied, 'Before you tell me I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Triple Filter Test.'

'Triple filter?' asked the acquaintance.

'That's right,' Socrates continued. 'Before you talk to me about my student let's take a moment to filter what you're going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?'

'No,' the man said, 'actually I just heard about it.'

'All right,' said Socrates. 'So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my student something good?'

'No, on the contrary ...'.

'So,' Socrates continued, 'you want to tell me something bad about him, even though you're not certain it's true?'.

The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued.' You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter - the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful to me?'

'No, not really...'

'Well,' concluded Socrates, 'if what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me at all?'

The man was defeated and ashamed. This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem.

It also explains why he never found out that Plato was sleeping with his wife.

I just joined today, and I have been looking over the different posts. I find this a fascinating topic. I have always thought of myself as an honest person. However, I do tend to beat around the bush and sugar-coat things. I have been basically a puppet for my entire life. I do what everyone wants and pretend I am enjoying things when I definitely am not. I say what people want to hear, even though I don't really believe it or want to say it. I am always fine. I am so afraid of hurting someone else all the time, I act the part of the puppet in these cases also. I basically live my life for everyone else's wishes. One time I was talking about quitting a job I had had for 2 1/2 years. I was trying to figure out how to let them down easy. I didn't want to hurt, offend, or anger them in any way. My mom asked if I like being told right out or have the person beat around the bush. I told her that I would want someone to tell my right out. I was flabbergasted when she asked, "Well, why don't you give them the same courtesy others have given you and tell them out right. I am now, slowly but surely, breaking some of those strings that are attached to me. Once in a while, I can now tactfully tell them what needs to be said. I have to tell you that the few times I do stand up for myself, it actually feels good.