History: Actual, Fictional and Legendary discussion

Targeted for January 1, 2010 but any comments can be added before that.

You want any books about WWI ,right?

carol (akittykat) wrote: "You want any books about WWI ,right?"

Right you pick one, you want to read then I post some very general discussion starters and people comment using what they read or what they remember or what they think as a basis and off we go.

Sounds good to me. I like the idea of a general discussion starter. I am excited about this club.

This is a topic very dear to my heart. I spent four years immersed in research about the war for my two latest novels. Of the more than 100 books I read, here are some of my favourites:
Sagittarius Rising
The Roses of No Man's Land
Goodbye to All That
Testament of Youth
We That Were Young
"Not So Quiet" Stepdaughters of War
Courage of the Early Morning

All the books are listed on a website I created called "Odd, Intriguing, Surprising Facts About WW1" http://4yearsofww1.info/, which is being used by Library and Archives Canada in their WW1 workshops.

May I suggest that you see this poignant music video about Remembrance Day - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kX_3y...

Gabriele wrote: "This is a topic very dear to my heart. I spent four years immersed in research about the war for my two latest novels. Of the more than 100 books I read, here are some of my favourites:
[book:Sagit..."

Gabriele,

Awesome comments and awesome list of books. My TBR for WW I is growing very fast.

The You Tube link is incredibly touching. I teared up immediately.

Thanks for all of this.

Thanks, Ed. You may be interested to know I recently spoke with Arthur Bishop, son of legendary WW1 Ace Billy Bishop (who appears in my novel, Elusive Dawn). He really enjoyed my books and said that they were suspenseful and historically accurate, and that "the amazing amount of research provides an excellent educational background on the Great War and on aviation."

I was thrilled!

I have no preference on specific books but would really love to read non-fiction ;)

Reposted from the other thread:

Some more suggestions for World War I:

Memoirs of an Infantry Officer, by Siegfried Sassoon (memoir)

Storm of Steel, by Ernst Junger (memoir)

The Good Soldier Svejk and His Fortunes in the World War, by Jaroslav Hasek (novel)

Testament of Youth, by Vera Brittain (memoir)

Maisie Dobbs, by Jacqueline Winspear (modern mystery novel - strong war element)

Eye-Deep in Hell Trench Warfare in World War I, by John Ellis (the Western front)

Dreadnought and Castles of Steel, by Robert K. Massie (the war at sea)

A War Imagined The First World War and English Culture, by Samuel Hynes (the Home Front in Britain)

Journey's End Play, by R. C. Sherriff (drama)

The Price of Glory Verdun 1916; Revised Edition, by Alastair Horne (battle history)

When do we start? This is a great list.

Two suggestions on WWI:
1. Three Day Road, by Joseph Boyden
2. A Rifleman Went to War, by Herbert McBride

Boyden's book is a novel based on real historical figures, focusing mainly on two young Canadian Cree men, Elijah and Xavier, and an elderly aunt who is their parent figure, Niska. The boys enlist in the Canadian army and, due to their experience and skill as hunters, end up serving as snipers on the Western Front. The book is very well done in its portrayal of the misery of the trenches and its effects on the minds and souls of the soldiers there, and also somewhat on the collision between Native ways of life and the Eurocentric white culture that was grinding the aboriginal societies down.

McBride's book is considered a classic on World War I among the infantry communities of the Marine Corps and Army. It was the memoir of an American who joined the Canadian army because he wanted to get into the war. For most of the book, all but the last part, it's pretty dry, with kind of a Joe Friday "just the facts, ma'am" feel, so for that majority of the book it's mainly of interest for the portrayal of day-to-day life for an infantryman and sniper in the trenches of the Western Front. Toward the end, though, McBride opens up more about the psychological and emotional impact the war had on him. For anyone contemplating writing stories set in that milieu, it will be worth reading as background material.

James wrote: "Two suggestions on WWI:
1. Three Day Road, by Joseph Boyden
2. A Rifleman Went to War, by Herbert McBride

Boyden's book is a novel based on real historical figures, focusing mainly on two young ..."

Thanks James,

My TBR list is growing much faster than my "Read" list.

I, can't speak for the others but I appreciate the short synopses so I have an idea of what I'm getting into.

I am just realizing.. slow on the update...don't mind me...

But are we compiling a list to read in January? of all these books? Or are we picking a couple?

And just while I think of it a good world war 1 novel is The Wars by Timothy Findley.

I think Ed wants to leave it elastic... in the sense that: the topic is WWI, but there are no set books; there will be some discussion questions and everyone will come to the discussion from a different perspective because we will have all read different things.

(Pls. correct me if I didn't understand the drill, Ed)

Yes Hayes, I believe your understanding is correct.
Well, well, a visit to the book store is imminent. Hopefully I could find Storm of Steel, since it's the one attracts me the most.

That was my understanding also.

Hayes wrote: "I think Ed wants to leave it elastic... in the sense that: the topic is WWI, but there are no set books; there will be some discussion questions and everyone will come to the discussion from a diff..."

You are right, Hayes. I will post some questions late in December that hopefully will get the juices flowing and kick start the discussion.

As I said in my posting about "Theme of the Month":

I think the way we are going is that we will pick a theme and suggest books that could be read on that theme.

At the end of the month I will pose some questions related to the theme and members can respond based on what they have read or what they already know.

For example, if WW I is the theme and I've already read the The Guns of August, I can comment based on that or some other book I've read or just based on my general knowledge of the period.

No need to commit to read any book that you would not read anyway.

For those of you, just getting your feet wet on WW I. The following link has a short but accurate summary of its causes.

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/w...

Ed wrote: "For those of you, just getting your feet wet on WW I. The following link has a short but accurate summary of its causes.

http://americanhistory.about.com/od/w......"

Simple and succinct. I like that the author said the assassination of the archduke was the immediate cause and not the MAIN cause, as some sources ridiculously claimed.

Marco wrote: "Any starter questions that you might have for us to look out for in our reading?"

I haven't really thought about it. I think it's important to understand its causes. I would hope we could look at the military blunders and stupidity as well as the political blunders and stupidity. I also think the so-called peace process would be interesting to look at and what its effects were. Lastly, it might be fun to speculate on the war's probable outcome in the U.S. had stayed out of it.

More later.

Marco wrote: "Oh, I was just thinking...the internet was created by none other than Gavrilo Princip, the man who killed Franz Ferdinand. See if you can find out why I'm thinking that :)"

I thought Al Gore invented the internet. :).

I hope someone can respond to this. I haven't the time.

Marco wrote: "Oh, I was just thinking...the internet was created by none other than Gavrilo Princip, the man who killed Franz Ferdinand. See if you can find out why I'm thinking that :)"

er...World War web? World Wide Web? the global dissemination thingy? LOL

Gavrilo, that's a nice name, btw

I am like Switzerland and staying out of this conversation. teehee

Marco, I must say that is one heck of a reach. By your reasoning, Charlemagne created the internet in many, many degrees of separation.

Cause and effect are usually tricky concepts.

Re: Top 5 Causes of World War I

Good summary and organization of many factors into 5 groups.

I don’t agree that the assassination caused the war. It may have been the trigger or tipping point to start WWI at that particular time, but the real causes were already in place.

David wrote: "Re: Top 5 Causes of World War I

Good summary and organization of many factors into 5 groups.

I don’t agree that the assassination caused the war. It may have been the trigger or tipping poin..."

I agree, totally. Two of the discussions we could have is how the war might have been avoided or whether or not the war was inevitable.

It seems, from the historians I've read, that it was a combination of three main causes - first, that everyone grossly underestimated how terrible it would be; like the beginning of the U.S. Civil War, they thought it was going to be a brief and glamorous adventure, instead of (in both cases) four years of hell that killed a significant percentage of the healthy young men involved; second, that everyone relied on small regular armies with huge numbers of reserves that took time to mobilize, so once one country started mobilizing everyone else had to do the same or risk being attacked before they could defend themselves; and three, that the countries were connected in such a web of alliances that once a conflict started between any two, the rest were unable to avoid sliding into the pit with them - they were roped together like climbers, so to speak, and all went down together.

Seems to me that the only way the war could have been avoided would have been for the people in power to have an accurate idea of what industrialized war would be like rather than the sort of Gilbert & Sullivan fantasy they did have, and for them to be less complacent and not so assured that being interdependent in their trade relations and oh-so-highly-civilized would ensure that reason prevailed.

James said Seems to me that the only way the war could have been avoided would have been for the people in power to have an accurate idea of what industrialized war would be like rather than...

Gee, I wish that would work today...

Yeah, wouldn't that be great?

Part of the problem is probably that over the last three decades, the segment of society that ends up running things has included fewer and fewer veterans, and fewer who even listen to veterans.

another place to find WW1 book suggestions is here at the ww1 culture/history group on goodreads
http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/3...

There are over 1,000 books (fiction and non-fiction, divided by category) on the group's bookshelves

I agree,the assassination of Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (a Habsburg)and Herzogin Sophie von Hohenberg was merely a catalyst for the Great War, not it's cause. After all, wasn't it Bismark who called the Balkans teh "tinder box" of Europe nearly 50 years earlier?

(For those interested in the Habsburg check out these two groups devoted to them:
K.u. K. Habsburgs
http://www.goodreads.com/group/list/7...

and
Empress Elisabeth and Her Family
http://www.goodreads.com/group/list/7...

I feel like this will be a good discusision for me because I don't really know that much about this war period. I mean aside from the few books I've read and movies. I'm looking forward to the discussion...even if I won't know or be able to contribute much to it. I am looking into the books listed here though!

I have a kind of overview feeling about war. Not specific wars. War for me, in my experience and reading...is about resource scarcity. So I ted to look at the variables and "follow the money" (or resources).

I hope I won't be too much of a stick in the mud for this discussion.

I'd propose Vera Brittain's Testament of Youth unless one really wanted a novel.

I believe we are planning to read a variety of books about The Great War in January.

Ah, excellent...we all get to read something different--thank you for the clarification. Goodness...what new book should I read. I just finished reading Making Men Moral Social Engineering During the Great War...

Susanna wrote: "I believe we are planning to read a variety of books about The Great War in January."

Thanks, for clarifying, Susanna. You are absolutely right. We will discuss any aspect of the conflict people wish depending on what they chose to read. I'll try and start the discussion with some hopefully provocative questions.

Jenna wrote: "Ah, excellent...we all get to read something different--thank you for the clarification. Goodness...what new book should I read. I just finished reading [book:Making Men Moral Social Engineering..."

Oh, my... the blurb sounds fairly shocking! What did you think?

Jenna wrote: "Ah, excellent...we all get to read something different--thank you for the clarification. Goodness...what new book should I read. I just finished reading [book:Making Men Moral Social Engineering..."

Fascinating, Jenna! Yes, what did you think?

That is a creepy concept. Woodrow Wilson was far from moral in terms of his treatment of women, minorities, immigrants, dissidents, and people's civil rights and liberties in general, and all of it overladen with that veneer of self-righteousness; he was, I think, one of the more sinister presidents we've had, as if we'd had John Ashcroft in the White House.

Gabriele wrote Making Men Moral Social Engineering During the Great War Fascinating, Jenna! Yes, what did you think?.

It is well-written and engaging and seems well-researched. While Weldon B. Durham argues that she accepts without questing that the CTCA did what it planned to do, I Think she acknowledges, at least to some degree, the gap between theoretical and ideological conceptions and what happened in practice...

James wrote: "That is a creepy concept. Woodrow Wilson was far from moral in terms of his treatment of women, minorities, immigrants, dissidents, and people's civil rights and liberties in general, and all of i..."

I totally agree. He was an elitist of the worst sort, hiding behind a supposedly moral and ethical front when in fact he was all of those things you mention.

He fooled a lot of people and when he was too sick to do it anymore his wife took over for him.

Yes. The idea of people taking it upon themselves to decide what was moral or immoral about the lives of others, except where we need laws to protect people from crime, is against the principles on which the Founders based our society, particularly the Bill of Rights... people like that, if they get the power to enforce their ideas, end up killing anyone they don't like - burning "witches" and "heretics", carrying out pogroms and genocides, starting wars. The worst atrocities always seem to be committed by people who are absolutely sure they're right, no doubt or humility in them - the Inquisition, the Communist governments in the USSR and China, the Nazis, the Khmer Rouge, the Taliban. In this country, the KKK, Wilson and his attorney general Palmer, Joe McCarthy - and, I think, a lot of the functionaries who institutionalized illegal kidnapping, torture, and "extraordinary rendition" over the last several years.

It meant a lot to me during my twenty years in the military that my oath was to protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign or domestic - not to any individual or officeholder, to our system.

The more I learn about Woodie, the less I think of him.

Wasn't he the one starting the League of Nations? I wish he could see what the UN has become nowadays *snort*

Yes, President Wilson had the idea, but the US Congress voted to not join, mainly due to a lot of infighting and some personal dislike of Wilson, due to earlier things he'd done in his presidency

Wilson didn't do well at getting other people to cooperate with him, partly because of his self-righteous and overbearing style and partly because he refused to compromise on what he wanted - it was his way or no way, and a lot of the time he didn't get his way.

Yes, his determination not to have half a loaf if he couldn't have the whole one, in his dealings with the Senate over the League issue, is one of the things that killed it. He was "too high-minded" to compromise.

James wrote: "Wilson didn't do well at getting other people to cooperate with him, partly because of his self-righteous and overbearing style and partly because he refused to compromise on what he wanted - it wa..."

James, I think you have him pegged completely. It will be interesting in the WW I discussion if anyone reads a book featuring Wilson. A self-appointed demagogue if there ever was one.

Better words for a lot of what is called high-minded by the people taking such stances would probably be petty and vindictive.

I have never gotten along with people who know everything, who are so narcissistic that it never occurs to them that they might be wrong, or there might be more right answers than theirs. They scare me when they have power, and the more power they have the more they scare me. Throw some puritanism and bigotry into that mix, and you end up with the Palmer Raids, large-scale deportations without due process of immigrants with populist political views, and the imprisonment of people like Eugene Debs. Some people never seem to grasp that dissent is sometimes the highest form of patriotism.

I thought it was interesting that later on in that series by Harry Turtledove that started with How Few Remain, he had Wilson as the president of the CSA.