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Book Snobbery
I haven't had anyone tell me anything about my romance book reading yet and if they do. I have two words for them. "Oh Well!"
Really? I've had people make fun of my reading choices for over twenty years. I don't care that much what they think of me personally, but it's a little frustrating on behalf of the genre as a whole.
Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Really? I've had people make fun of my reading choices for over twenty years. I don't care that much what they think of me personally, but it's a little frustrating on behalf of the genre as a whol..."A lot of people haven't seen me read romance books, maybe that's why, but they still will get an "Oh Well!" from me, if someone had a problem.
A lot of people knows that I love to read and write.
I am not a fan of romance novels. I do not think I have ever teased or looked down on someone because they are (I do, however, make fun of my friends who record "their soaps" because they just cannot get enough).
That is why I read books from all book genres. Every area should have a chance. If the first book isn't all that great that doesn't mean the next one won't be. Just saying you don't like a certain genre you are writing off tons of authors. I can't imagine that.
I'm with you Danielle. That sort of thing really irritates me too. I can't recall ever being personally picked on for my choice of reading material, but then again there aren't that many people who actually know or care what I read. Most of the put-downs I've seen have come from people online in more of a general sense. I also agree that it's probably even more egregious for someone who regularly reads a particular genre to belittle their own reading choices. My husband and I have discussed this before, and he thinks that they are embarrassed to admit what they read and/or that they actually like it, but that still seems completely insensible to me.
Being a SciFi reader I know what it is like to be looked at as weird from both angles. They either think you are "weird" or "smart" and judge accordingly. I personally read whatever strikes my fancy and would never judge anyone for what makes them happy. Next time someone judges you for what you read, try asking "Well, what do you read?" and I'll bet you anything that most do not read at all. Maybe they're just jealous ;-).
I'm not real big on romance. But that's just me. If someone else enjoys them (and I know a lot of people on here do) then great. It's their time and their enjoyment, why should it bother me or why should I look down on it? People might not like the same genres I do and it wouldn't bother me. So yeah, I don't get the book snob thing.
Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "One thing is that I've noticed is that even people who read romances will dismiss them and call them fluff or trashy mindless reads. Why put down something you took the time and energy to read?"In the fanfiction world "fluff" is a term for anything that is light and romantic, but doesn't have a plot other than the romance. For some people it's an insult, but for other people it's just an odd little term.
When you alternate complex science fiction/fantasy with lots of world building, with simple contemporary romances, of course the romances are going to look like "easy reads" in comparison. I call them mindless reads. That doesn't mean they're worthless, just that I don't have to learn a new world, or figure out a mystery, or keep track of a whole cast of characters. Simple, clean, fast, easy reads have their place.
I don't consider romance mindless reading. I don't think any reading is mindless. Personally I think it takes mental energy to read any book. I will say that some books are more complex than other. Just because it's a romance does not mean it doesn't fall into that category. That's a fallacy about romance novels that never fails to irritate me. One of my biggest issues is that people who have never picked up a romance novel call them trash and mindless and completely without redeeming value.Romance is a very wide genre, growing wider as we speak. So, there are romances that are more complex than non-romances. As for world-building, there are plenty of romances with world-building. There are classic novels that are universally lauded that fall within the romance genre whether people want to admit it or not.
The problem with terminology is that it is often thrown around in mixed company without respect for how words are taken. Trashy is a term that just has a negative connotation to me. Trashy makes me think of garbage. So if you call a book trashy that means you're calling it garbage. So I do take offense when term is applied to a whole genre.
Fluff is not a term that can be applied to all romance novels either. I've read some that are definitely 180 degrees from fluff.
Yes, there are simple, fast, easy romance novels, and there are romance novels that are none of those things.
There are good and bad books in every genre, so it's not fair to throw a whole genre out the window into the gutter.
By the way, I used romance as an example. This question applies to book snobbery in general.Is a person who only reads classics to be respected more than a person who only reads graphic novels?
To me the answer is no! I'm just happy to see people reading. I will use romance as an example because that's mainly the prejudice I've faced. (However at work comments are made about my scary books I read because I read stuff like Dracula by Bram Stoker) I have an incredible vocabulary, part of which comes from reading...guess what???? Romance novels. I have a grasp of history that most people do not. From reading romance novels in part. I've read literary fiction. I can't say that it improved me in the slightest. But genre fiction has because it gave me a few hours of enjoyment, helped me to relax, and gave me something to think about at the same time.
Books open a person's mind and enhances her or his perspective on worlds. No matter what kinds of books they read.
I write romance and true love can't be present without romance. I could be wrong Danielle, but the people that thinks something is wrong with you reading romance novels are women, right? The next time a woman comes at you, wondering why you are reading romance, ask her if she believes in love and if she says yes, then ask her, how come she's against romance novel, when she believes in love, because you can't embrace one without embracing the other. Unless she has never been romanced.
I think you're seeing certain terms as negative when some people using the terms don't necessarily intend them to be negative. I consider Janet Evanovich's "Stephanie Plum" books mindless reads. I also consider them solid 4 star reads every time. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Love the books. Love revisiting her little corner of the world. Don't feel mentally challenged by reading them.
I just finished a Diana Gabaldon book that could be classified as historical romance. Her books aren't mindless reads. They are long with dense writing. The settings are brutal. The events are brutal. There are no "rose colored" glasses in sight. You have to work to read her books, no matter how gratifying they are.
There is a clear difference there. Maybe "mindless" is a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not always meant as a put down. I list both of those authors as favorites.
It's definitely a matter of how words are taken, mlady_rebecca. I can see we have a different opinion for what mindless entails. I do agree that some books do take less concentration or effort to read than others. I've found that it's hard to read any book when I'm mentally fatigued. For me, reading is a mental exercise at all times. Some books relax me more and get me into a peaceful mode. Maybe that is what you might equate to mindless. I don't mean to jump on you about your choice of terminology. It's a sensitive subject for me, I suppose.
Arch wrote: "I write romance and true love can't be present without romance. I could be wrong Danielle, but the people that thinks something is wrong with you reading romance novels are women, right? The ne..."
Hey Arch. It's both males and females. I have no problem pulling a book out in public. I might read some books with a bare chest or a clench in public. I don't read any heavy duty erotics (so that's not the issue). It's funny how I've heard romance books called, "sex books," "lust books," "smut," "trash," etc. There are some mainstream fiction books that have a lot more sexual content than many romance books. It's really a sign of ignorance when these commments come out of someone's mouth. And at the end of the day, why does it matter what other people chose to do with their time? I don't like watching football. It's extremely boring to me. I could care less if someone else likes to watch it, just don't force me to do it. I think it should be the same way with books.
Arch wrote: "I write romance and true love can't be present without romance. I could be wrong Danielle, but the people that thinks something is wrong with you reading romance novels are women, right? The ne..."
--I wanted to add that some women disdain romance because they think it's unrealistic and foolish. It's fiction. Does fiction have to be realistic? No.
Julie (Mom2lnb) wrote: "I'm with you Danielle. That sort of thing really irritates me too. I can't recall ever being personally picked on for my choice of reading material, but then again there aren't that many people who..."--Julie I do think there is an embarrassment factor there for some of the people who disparage their reading material choices.
I have had people [before they know I read it:] say what trash romance is. It depends on the style. Some is meant to be 'light' i.e fluff or an afternoon read. Something not emotionally investing but still romantic. Then there's the 'trashy' or filthy romance that has a certain formula/quota that can also treat the senses. As romance reader you have a certain sense about the books and know that not everyone gets why you read smut. If you just wanted the sex it's easier to watch a 2 hour [or less:] movie, skip to the ' good parts' imo. I like being able to read about the characters meeting each other, going through the motions of whatever the situation is and so forth.
When you don't know the insider info and judge a book by the cover. Reading a book with a bare chested man or a sexy posed couple does not lower your bookIQ or corrupt your morals.
Good question!
Hi,The snobbery that is born from readers comes off of that created by authors, which I am one.
I am so sick of snobbery in the writing world, I don't know what to do. I love mysteries and suspense but I also write it. I don't receive the "snobbery" that romance writers and erotica writers do, I admit. But, what female mystery writers get is snobbery from male readers and male writers who think women aren't "clever" enough or capable of writing a good mystery. Most people think all women can write is romance. Well, I don't read straight romances and I don't read erotica. I have nothing against them but that's just not my taste. I don't put them down though. I prefer the challenge of mystery and I get a high off of having to follow characters through a story to come up with a reason or solution so that's why I love detective stories especially.
We can't stop the snobbery (unfortunately), but if more writers learned to respect each other and stop trying to put each other's work down then these stupid arguments like, Literary vs. Genre, Romance vs. Erotica, Romance vs. Other Genres will end.
Best Wishes!
http://www.stacy-deanne.net
Danielle, you have stated that men wonders why you read romance books as well. The same thing that I have said about the women, applies to the men. I could be wrong, but the same people that have a problem with you reading romance books, watches romance movies or should I say, they watch a movie where a woman and man hook up. Even action pack movies have a man and woman falling in love. It's the same thing as a romance book, in my opinion.
A person can find a man and woman falling in love in romantic comedy movies, suspense movies, historical movies and even in Sci-Fi movies.
If I am wrong, please someone correct me.
that is a perfect term, Book Snobbery. I loathe it. I read mostly Historical Fiction with a few supernatural and romance inbetween to toss it up a little and everyone I work with give me a hard time for my HF books, granted their big thick books but I find them interesting and no offense their not the ones reading it not them.
I've had people say to me "you read that stuff", when they find out I read a lot of romance. It does agravate me sometimes. I think there are a lot of people who read romance that don't admit to it though. I'm not a sci-fi reader, but if that is what you like to read good for you. It's what you enjoy and besides books are supposed to bring you enjoyment, knowledge or just take you away to a place you've never been or somewhere you've dreamed of going. Reading romance for me is a way to relax and get away from all the everyday headaches and worry's of the day or week for just a little while. I like a good mystery sometimes too.
I've read lots of romantic suspense books based on military-spec ops-etc. that you can tell are well-researched and very likely contain true-life situations BUT the RS authors get much less credit for these awesome books than the (usually male) general fiction authors who do the same. Just not right, IMHO. I have heard somewhere, however, that authors agents are often the ones to determine where in the book store their clients' work will be placed. Or sometimes I see a crossover. I.E. is Karen Rose viewed as a more serious author when she's placed in Romance and in General Fiction?
interesting point Cindi, I think it does effect how well known the author will become and how well they sell.
mlady_rebecca wrote: "Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "One thing is that I've noticed is that even people who read romances will dismiss them and call them fluff or trashy mindless reads. Why put down something you ..."I think this post best sums up what I think bim really a fantasy junkie but some times I read romance if it comes reomended and has themes I like. As a fantasy lover face this too people think I'm nothing beyond that and that its nothing but dragons and castels and seem to dissmis it as less vaild thben a "classic" even. Though some classics to me fit with fantasy and hello there are "classics" of every genre
Hi Stacey.I find it ironic that male mystery and suspense writers look down on females when some of the greatest authors in that genre were females, such as Agatha Christie. It's pretty ridiculous.
I am a Stephen King fan, but I lost respect for him when he said that Stephenie Meyer cannot write. If that is his opinion, I think out of courtesy for a fellow writer, he should not have said so, or perhaps in a more polite manner.
Arch wrote: "Danielle, you have stated that men wonders why you read romance books as well. The same thing that I have said about the women, applies to the men. I could be wrong, but the same people that ha..."
You are absolutely right, Arch. Romance is a part of almost every genre out there. It's funny how so many turn their noses up at romance novels, but do they throw a Dean Koontz or Stephen King, or James Patterson book at the wall when it has a romance in it? It's kind of bizarre to me. Even some of the really man-oriented entertainment still has romance in it.
Gothicladybug wrote: "mlady_rebecca wrote: "Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "One thing is that I've noticed is that even people who read romances will dismiss them and call them fluff or trashy mindless reads. Why p..."Good point, mlady_rebecca. I have found quite a few classics that fit my genre, "non-literary" reading tastes. What was considered pulp 80 years ago, is considered a classic nowadays. Jane Austen is classic, but she's also a romance author. Jules Verne is classic, but he was a science fiction author.
Yes, I am a book snob. I look down on romance from the lofty heights of the Science Fiction fan. Actually I pretty much avoided the fantasy category for years because I regarded it as an offshoot of romance, but with elves and the occasional dragon. I will read what I consider the masculine equivalent of romance novels, though ... hairy chested men's adventure novels, mainly because I feel that they have elements of plot and action that are clearly lacking in romance novels.
And yes, I have tried to read romance, on more than one occasion.
I will confess that I can be a book snob too, especially when it comes to romance novels. However, I have read them ... a lot of them ... a lot a lot of them. In high school I went through a whole romance novel phase where and I read them every chance I got and for awhile my bookshelves carried almost all romance (I have since donated a majority of them). However, I partially blame this overdose on the genre for my slight book snobbery. The reason I stopped reading them is that they all started to seem the same to me. Boy meets girl, one of them doesn't like the other at first, some sort of adventure ensues, true selves are revealed and they live happily ever after (with sex in between). Personally, I don't think the standard romance novel has much literary value (in terms of English major type literary value that is). There's never hidden meanings to disect and the characters are usually very surface with very few real surprises (in my opinion at least). I do try not to judge others who read them though, since as I said I used to do so all the time, but I still enjoyed Shakespeare and Austin. Plus, everyone needs to read something light and fluffy once in awhile and there's nothing wrong with reading a book just because you know it will have a happy ending and put you in a better mood. However, whenever I finished a romance novel I never felt as if I had been pushed to think about anything on a deeper or more profound level. That being said I would put Chick lit in that same category, but I do love to read a good chick lit book on a rainy weekend.
Stormhawk and Lisa Anne, maybe you didn't read the "right" romances to spark the things that really interest you. I have personally read several romances that have great action-oriented plots with a strong male perspective to the point that some readers who were unfamiliar with the female author actually thought it was a man writing. I have also found many romances that have wonderfully complex multi-dimensional characters and plots that make me think on a very deep and profound level long after turning the last page. I won't say that's the case with every one, and many are formulaic, but there are some really talented authors out there who truly know how to write a good and unique book. I'm certainly not trying to sell you on romances, just trying to point out that romance is an ever-evolving and wide-ranging genre that definitely has a lot offer beyond the basic boy-meets-girl love story.
I think there's also a misconception that engaging the emotions has no value or is somehow independent from the mind, which is pretty misguided and largely an abstract, biased idea from society rather than evidence.
stormhawk wrote: "Yes, I am a book snob. I look down on romance from the lofty heights of the Science Fiction fan. Actually I pretty much avoided the fantasy category for years because I regarded it as an offshoot o..."Could you give us some specific examples of what you do read, Stormhawk? I am just curious & nosey . . . I had to laugh at the "hairy chested" remark. Lisa Anne, I am also curious how long ago you were in high school because I also tried reading "romance" and "womens fiction" but found I did not like historicals/regencies at all and wasn't in love with much of the other stuff out at the time either (UNTIL my sister got me reading a Barbara Taylor Bradford series about sisters that touched me). I read Sci-Fi/Fan until one day I thought, "Hmmm. This is all pretty much the same!". But now, many years later, I'm reading Paranormal Romance and Romantic Suspense and loving it! Its all in the timing. I totally agree with Julie - there are tons of evolving authors who are so worth a try; I also feel that there are several established (male) fiction authors coasting off their name years later who should not be auto-buys or even in hardcover anymore due to basic and unimaginative storylines and pedantic writing styles - James Patterson and Stuart Woods quickly come to mind. . . . no offense.
I avoided romance novels, thinking they were all like the horribly cheesy novels of my youth. I 'twas sorely mistaken. I am presently loving Julie Garwood's medieval's and needing more.My mother critisizes my books all the time. She wants me to read all things political, and I tell her I do. There's a lot of politics going on in the Medieval Highland books, but she won't listen to me.
Then she nagged about my vampire novels and argued that I wasn't learning anything worthwhile other than what to do if I meet a vampire. I said "Yeah, I'll know EXACTLY what to do if I meet a vampire in a dark alley." I had Z in mind, of course. LOL
Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "Hi Stacey.I find it ironic that male mystery and suspense writers look down on females when some of the greatest authors in that genre were females, such as Agatha Christie. It's pretty ridicul..."
stephani myer took that chance at public and profressional crituqe by bing so bloody over staturated i men good god u cant go anywhere without seeing twilight/ new moon 7-11 for goods sake is in on it she gets what she gets
Yeah, Meyer is saturated all the way to the bank. More power to her.
With all due respect, Gothicladybug, I fail to see how Stephenie Meyer is responsible for her own popularity. She never had any idea that her books would become mega-bestsellers that would be made into mega-blockbuster movies. The only people who are responsible for that are the fans who buy the books, movie tickets, and merchandise. While I would tend to agree that you can't go hardly anywhere these days without seeing something Twilight related, again that would be because of greedy marketing gurus and fan demand for it, not Ms. Meyer herself.
ive read some where about how it was her that pushed for the movies and that that come out so close together and she didnt have to sign her name on the dotted line of every murchidise offer that comes to her so while some of my opion is all hersay there is still a lot of her in there so agreeing to all the crappy neco sweet hearts with bella nd edwards pic on them they are copywritted after all but i should not turn this in to a diffrent thread sorry to people who disagree or feel up that this took over the thread for even a lil bit
Why the heck wouldn't she profit by her work? Would you refuse that much money? I doubt it.
id say no to crappy murchidise that makes the market over saturated with images of my work there comes a line where its gross and my main point is so is so in the spot light that she is bound to get reveiws good and bad from other people in her field its part of being in a industry where opinon is EVERYTHING so i dont care if u are fan of hers or hate her guts she is a public figure now and will get the public opinon of her self and work
new_user wrote: "Why the heck wouldn't she profit by her work? Would you refuse that much money? I doubt it."I'm with you. People want the stuff or the companies wouldn't put it out there for marketing. They'd lose too much $$$. Personally, I don't like the dolls. I think they look cheesy. Then again, I'm not a teenager, ya know? I don't have to buy it.
I'm actually quite greatful for Twilight. It got a whole lot of kids excited about reading, and it was my introduction into vampires, which is how I found the Black Dagger Brotherhood which is my all time favorite vampire series now.
Gothicladybug wrote: "id say no to crappy murchidise that makes the market over saturated with images of my work there comes a line where its gross and my main point is so is so in the spot light that she is bound to g..."She's gotten plenty of criticism, that's for sure. Members of her church wanted her excommunicated for the "blatant sexuality" in Breaking Dawn. LOLOL Whew, those folk better never read J.R. Ward's Black Dagger Brotherhood. They'd all pass out.
wow to me it read like a lecture in "family values and a add for chastity rings" go figure but the point is the point i was going for all along is professinal criticism is part of being a household name i was not trying to get anyone's knickers in twist so as i said sorry to the fans and everything but if another author does not like her dont lose respect for them authors are paid to reveiw each other its all part of being in the game
Hey, this is a book snobbery thread, no one is critisizing your opinion, merely voicing our own.I found the series to be sexually tame, frankly. So yeah, I was floored to read that about her. However, I am thrilled that because it was written for the YA market, it WAS tame.
I recently picked up a YA book at B&N to check out for a 12 year old and was floored by the explicit description of oral sex. As a parent I would be more than a tad angry if I bought it based on the YA rating and gave it to my young teen to read. So again, I'm thrilled there are authors out there able to write a sexually tame book and still have such success.
2 authors that I know of have commented on her. J.R. Ward said that anyone critisizing Stephenie Meyer needs to pull their heads out of the asses. And Maria V. Snyder said that Meyer opened the genre to so many people and many authors, Snyder included, are thrilled to ride on Meyer's coattails.
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't forget that Stephen King has his own motives too. It smarts for some authors to see another win fame because it's just more competition. It's a natural reaction, but it was ungracious at best.
new_user wrote: "Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't forget that Stephen King has his own motives too. It smarts for some authors to see another win fame because it's just more competition. It's a natural reaction, but it was..."What is ungracious?
Tasteless.
Cindi asked what I do read ... You're certainly welcome to look at my profile and book ratings, but some highlights ...
My favorite authors are Harlan Ellison (speculative fiction), Robert Heinlein (science fiction), Andrew Vachss (mystery), Jerry Ahern (hairy chested men's post-apocalyptic adventure series, The Survivalist), Ian Fleming (the original James Bond books), Adam Hall (british spy stuff), and I recently got turned onto John Scalzi (science fiction). I also read an assortment of other mysteries, political thrillers, the occasional classic, political commentary.
This really doesn't fully express the eclecticness of my reading choices, but it's a start.
new_user wrote: "Tasteless."I meant, what is it you find ungracious? A particular author?
I think the most picked upon genre is romance. I don't see why people who have never read or read one bad romance feel like the whole genre has no merit.
Even people who are hardcore science fiction/fantasy lovers will pick on romance. The way I look at is people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
One thing is that I've noticed is that even people who read romances will dismiss them and call them fluff or trashy mindless reads. Why put down something you took the time and energy to read? I don't get it. In my opinion, if I don't care for a certain genre, I don't spend my precious time on it.
Any thoughts? Commiserations? Have you been picked on because you love a certain type of book genre?