Boxall's 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die discussion

One of my favorite authors...Maybe we can start by sharing our favorite story in the anthology (?) I haven't read every sinngle one yet, but mine is A View of the Woods. Anyone else?

I don't think I've read anything by Flannery O'Connor before. I've heard of the story "Revelation" in this collection, though, along with a short excerpt from it.

I just read the first story... It's very powerful. At first, when it was still unclear exactly what was bothering Julian, I thought I can relate to him. I could sort of see myself. I didn't approve of his sulking, but sometimes you just don't see things as clearly in yourself as in other people from aside. I should do better!

What exactly is the meaning of the phrase "meet self coming and going"? Not a native speaker and this phrase makes no sense to me.

On page 12 (in my copy) this sentence occurs: "Most miraculous of all, instead of being blinded by love for her as she was for him, he had cut himself emotionally free of her and could see her with complete objectivity." And I immediately thought at this: "What a jerk!" Just had this huge reaction to that...

The ending is significant, considering the scenarios that have been running through his mind on the bus... I guess Julian's mother wasn't the only one who got a "lesson" (although it sounds callous when I put it this way).

mara wrote: "One of my favorite authors...Maybe we can start by sharing our favorite story in the anthology (?) I haven't read every single one yet, but mine is A View of the Woods. Anyone else?"

I was intrigued by how she used what she knew in daily life to spin her stories. The adult child dependent on the parent, the illness, the farm, the impoverished fading gentry, the sharecroppers, the emerging civil rights movement, even the creation of Lake Sinclair near her hometown of Milledgeville. She is pitch-perfect in her characters. As a child of 60's Georgia, I recognize so many of these people. My favorite story was Revelation.

"meet myself coming and going" - I don't use this phrase, but generally as I've heard it used, it describes being so busy that you imagine you see yourself finishing one task even as you've moved on to the next, as if there were several shadow selves working beside you. Or as the somewhat confused state one is in when trying to complete a number of tasks by a certain time. This isn't what O'Conner means here, though. The mother has paid a bit more for the hat thinking she'll be the only one in town wearing it - as befits someone of her perceived social status; she won't meet herself,(her hat)in another woman "coming and going" (passing by).

I would have to say A View of the Woods was my favorite, also. On the back jacket of my book Thomas Merton, describes O’Conner this way: “I write her name with honor, for all the truth and all the craft with which she shows man’s fall and his dishonor.” I believe she writes brilliantly and she easily captivated me within the span of a few paragraphs I have to admit I found her blunt foreshadowing eerie. I read with a sense of dread for the almost always predictable and inevitable outcomes... I wanted to scream at the characters, “change you ways, change your ways,” but it was only after some act of extreme violence that they could even see their self-righteousness, self-centeredness, or other flaw and by that time, in most of the stories, it was too late.

Thanks, Rannie, I was wondering about the expression too. I can use that one...

Barbra, agreed! I want to scream at them too, but at the same time that inevitable doom is what makes the story so thrilling. Especially when the characters are particularly ugly, it's exciting to know that their lives will be smashed, the ax WILL fall. That's an awful thing to say but that's the cathartic beauty of books! In real life I believe we are all fallible and deserve each other's compassion but I find O'Connor's blows and the unexpectedly violent dark turns very exciting and satisfying. But I like that..."change your ways! change your ways!" That's exactly what I'm thinking.

The first story was just ok for me because I didn't have a strong reaction to either character. I was a little amused at the self-righteous son. What I do like about this one though is the ambiguity. Whose "side" is O'Connor on? Plus, I don't know if this reaction was intended, but I thought the part where the mom kept trying to give that boy a penny was funny. Not, funny as in laughing at the boy, but funny like "I know that boy's mom is going to go off on her" and funny because the act was so ridiculous - to imagine her waddling along completely unaware she was insulting anyone.

I didn't "get" the second story, and it seemed to just drag on about this woman who is disappointed in her two sons and envying her hired help for their sons. Whatever... I guess I didn't have a strong reaction about the characters.

The third story is about the dangers of stubbornness. I think Mr. Fortune loved the granddaughter, but by the end we find out that his love is kind of selfish, he loves her in so far as she is like him... It's ironic to me that Mr Fortune doesn't see his own stubbornness reflected in Mary Fortune, thinks that it's some Pitts trait.

What's still a bit of a mystery to me in the story is why would Mary Fortune deny that her dad beat her, if it was true? Could Mr. Fortune misunderstand what he was seeing? On the other hand, why wouldn't Mary Fortune elaborate on it, if it wasn't true; explain what actually happened between her and dad...

As far as violence at the end of every story (I didn't know that's how it's going to go when I began)... Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I believe anyone can be redeemed, so some of these deaths seem rather senseless. In the first story it certainly made a satisfying end to me, but not quite so much in the second and third.

I love how economically O'Connor's writing style reveals character. Within a few pages of starting each story, I felt like I had a pretty vivid understanding of the main characters' personalities. Her humor was the other highlight; almost every story produced a few audible laughs out of me.

At first I was a bit put off by the abrupt change in tone at the end of the first few stories, which usually involved the protagonist receiving a deserved comeuppance. Once I learned to anticipate these shocking endings, the stories became even more enjoyable as I could see the characters planting the seeds of their own demise.

My favorite story was The Lame Shall Enter First, as both the humor and tragedy of the story made the deepest impression on me. It's probably not a coincidence that this was the longest of the stories; I tend to prefer novels to short stories. Sheppard's transgressions include his neglect of his son's needs in the wake of the death of his mother and his secular humanist inability to acknowledge evil, and his self awareness comes only minutes too late. I'm not religious, but I appreciated O'Connor's imposition of her Catholic worldview onto the story. I had actually detected the early foreshadowing of Norton's suicide, but got so involved in the subsequent storyline involving Rufus'antics and funny dialogue that the ending still shocked.

I enjoyed all of the stories, but the dialogue between the women in the doctors waiting room in Revelation deserves special mention. One of my favorite moments in any of the stories, is when it is revealed that the girl who is listening has just returned from a year at Wellesley. We instantly know how painful it is for the girl to listen to this conversation, and how oblivious the women are to how they are being perceived.

Karina wrote: "I didn't "get" the second story, and it seemed to just drag on about this woman who is disappointed in her two sons and envying her hired help for their sons. Whatever... I guess I didn't have a st..."

Karina, i'm struggling a little bit with the second story as well - it's clear that it's also about the change in society and how Mrs. May cannot cope with the sons of the hated Greenleaves being more "successful" than her own sons.....

one question: are the Greenleaves of African origen? I've read this in a review and it would make sense considering the first story - i just missed out on that completely.....

Julia wrote: "one question: are the Greenleaves of African origen? I've read this in a review and it would make sense considering the first story - i just missed out on that completely....."

I didn't see any mention of it either. I suspect they weren't; otherwise I would expect to see something explicitly mentioned, made a point of.

Karina wrote: "Julia wrote: "one question: are the Greenleaves of African origen? I've read this in a review and it would make sense considering the first story - i just missed out on that completely....."

I think they are white tenant farmers.

mara wrote: "Thanks, Rannie, I was wondering about the expression too. I can use that one...

Barbra, agreed! I want to scream at them too, but at the same time that inevitable doom is what makes the story ..."
Mara, I find your gleeful expression of those getting their just due, so very funny!! I am still chuckling. It reminded me of something I came across when I was researching O’Connor. O'Connor described herself as a "pigeon-toed child with a receding chin and a you-leave-me-alone-or-I'll-bite-you complex.”

Rannie wrote: "Karina wrote: "Julia wrote: "one question: are the Greenleaves of African origen? I've read this in a review and it would make sense considering the first story - i just missed out on that complete..."

i also thought that they were what Mrs. May herself would call "white trash" in her sense of superiority, just like the Pitts for Grandfather Fortune in the third story.

Here's an interesting link about Flannery O'Connor:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/boo...

So, let's see what we have here? A woman gored by a bull, an old man murdering his grandaughter, the suicide of a motherless unloved boy, an accidental matricide, lives deformed by extreme insularity and racism, characters whose complete lack of self-awareness rises to the level of a fierce plot element leading irrevocably to the denouement from hell and damnation. For O'Connor, the dead are the lucky ones -- the living, like Julian in the title story and Sheppard in 'Lame', get 'washed away in a tide of darkness' and go from spiritual myopia and self-absorbtion into either a 'world of guilt and sorrow' or, like Asbury('Chill'), a future filled with suffering of their own making. The power of these stories arises from the author's creative detailing of mind and heart. Here's Mrs. Turpin in Revelation cogitating on her place in a hypothetical world where God could remake and rank her as 'nigger or white trash'; Mr.Fortune obsessing on what percent of child Mary is a 'Pitts' or a 'Fortune'; Asbury fatuously plotting a 'meaningful' goodbye to his life by having a smoke 'with the Negroes, one last time'; Thomas, beside himself with misery, planting a gun for the 'little slut'. Toss into this mix some pathetic fallacy and harrowing imagery of the physical world -- 'trees thickened into mysterious dark files, marching across the water'('Woods') is one example --all sparingly used, at just the right moment and you have O'Connor channeling the Witches of Macbeth, Southern Gothic Style. Thing is, a part of me finds the stories elitist and dated, the violent endings overdone. With 'Lame' as a possible exception, little emotional connection exists between the author and characters who are authentic, yes, but uniformly limited and of interest to this reader only by virtue of the shortcoming that will cause their undoing. It's just too pat, too easy -- the distant narrative God spinning doom for her own amusement. Further, I have to confess bewilderment at the Lit/Crit crowd and the likes, possibly, of Thomas Merton that find an underlying 'spirituality' in the writing. To me, it's bleak, bleak, bleak, and I'm with Karina: please give me a sliver of hope, redemption and light, however faint, somewhere, someplace. As a professed Catholic, O'Connor is reported to have remarked on the need to record the reality of evil faithfully, however victorious it may be in the lives of men and women. But I'm picturing her, sitting in her bed, dying of Lupus, turning out these superby crafted, black-hole tales, scornful of this world, eager to get on to the next. Favorite tale? I like Revelation because here, as an exception, all the dark elements morph into absurdist comedy, not despair. It's Mrs. Turpin gradually internalizing a cruel personal remark until it's growing power forces a laughable confrontation with the warthog-like creatures -- and the God that made them -- in her husband's sties ..'How am I a hog? Exactly, how am I like them?...'. Thank God she wasn't trampled to death!

In The Enduring Chill did Asbury die in the end or not? It sort of seemed ambiguous to me; perhaps he'd consider being alive a fate worse than death. He thought he was going to die and he was ready for that; considered it a kind of reward from the Art whose faithful servant he was. But the doctor told him he would live with this persistent sickness that would keep coming back. That would give two meaning to the title of the story: the figurative "enduring chill" that he had meant his mother to experience upon reading his letter after his death, and the literal "enduring chill" that Asbury is going to go through for the rest of his life with this sickness.

I've only read the first two stories, but I find this book really depressing! Bad mother-son relationships, racism, death. There is not a ray of light in these stories.

OK, now I've read the first 5 stories, and I'm not feeling any better about the book. I guess this is not the kind of thing I should be reading in my empty, lonely house the week before Christmas. I'm tempted to go sit in my car in the garage with the engine running. OK, not really, but come on! For the most part, these characters are not horrible people, but they are all miserable! Depressed, pathetic, miserable people. There is not one ounce of happiness in these people, except for when they think they're hurting those that love them the most. All of these sons complaining that their mothers screwed them up, when from the outside it looks like the mothers maybe just doted on them too much, sacrificed too much of themselves for ungrateful, hateful children. I can relate to depression, I've been there, but I can't relate to the utter hopelessness of these character's lives.

Sorry for the rant, but I guess these stories are angering me. I guess that means that they are well written!

Out of the title story, Greenleaf, A View of the Woods, The Comforts of Home, and The Enduring Chill, the only one that I came close to liking was The Enduring Chill. Not sure why that one over the others. I thought it was great that his illness was caused by drinking the fresh milk, just to spite his mother.

All these stories seem to have the same ideas (except maybe A View of the Woods)--widowed mother blinded by love for her child, bitter adult son who doesn't quite live up to expectations, pale blue eyes.

Hey Kristi, maybe read something more cheerful for the moment?!? honestly i thought the same thing, i couldn't read Flannery O'Connor all the time, even though i really liked the short stories, especially the first one and Parker's Back, they're just too much concentrating on the bleak sides of life......what i find most depressing about them, that i CAN relate to most of the characters - how many times did i think myself superior, more tolerant, more open-minded, more sophisticated than my parents/surroundings? i think that O'Connor puts a mirror in front of ourselves and society, and that's why one also keeps on reading despite of not feeling good doing so.....her writing is psychologically really acurate for me, and i'm wondering what she would have written if she had got any older.

Ok, I finally had to respond to this criticism of Flannery O'Connor. I studied her short stories in college (never read her novels, although I really should read Wise Blood soon) and thought they were brilliant. Twenty years later I still remember some of the lines and incidents from her stories. The one about the racist woman trying to give the black child the nickel still amazes me.

So lay off a bit. It's all a matter of taste :-)

(BTW, this is my first post to this (or any other GoodReads) group, and I love it. It's gonna spur me to read more of the classics. I've gone through the 1001 book and marked all the ones I've read. Only 912 to go! :-) I'm amazed that people read so fast ("I read blah yesterday"). How do you do it/find the time? And a survey question: How do you pick which books to read and do you track them somehow?

Yeah, she may be kind of dark; I guess I like that sort of thing. She shocks you into awareness. She understands the South at that period in history. And she's very unique. There's a reason why she is still read today.

The discussion seems to center on how dark these stories are, but there is little said about their humor. I think that someone who hasn't read the stories would get the wrong idea from these posts. The black humor which dominates in most of these stories certainly helps O'Connor's medicine go down.

David--I'm not saying that she's a bad writer. In fact, her stories are probably really well written because they are making me feel so much. I just don't want to be feeling so depressed right now.

re the O'Conner quote, "leave me alone or I'll bite you" Is the Wellesley girl Flannery's alter ego?

Mark wrote: "The discussion seems to center on how dark these stories are, but there is little said about their humor. I think that someone who hasn't read the stories would get the wrong idea from these posts..."
You have a very valid point. For me it is like watching a Quentin Tarantino movie, I have to watch it more than once to get the humor. Maybe, someday I will read O'Connor again, and get it!

Rannie wrote: "
re the O'Conner quote, "leave me alone or I'll bite you" Is the Wellesley girl Flannery's alter ego?
"

Well, throwing a book across the room at someone you don't know would be, "leave me alone or I'll bite you." This is a trait I'm afraid I might share with Flannery and the Wellesley girl. maybe just a little bit! I never thought about finding O'Connor in the characters. Thanks.

I just finished this book recently and while the writing was excellent and the stories will be hard to forget, I didn't like it. It felt like taking medicine; you know it's supposed to be good for you but you don't like the taste. I'm glad I read it but it was slightly painful.

One of the elements that bothered me in this book was that the only stories that I felt that the black characters were real was the first and the last. And also her view of humanity was bleak. And it became predictable that in every story you knew that something bad was going to happen to one of the main characters. I think the last story was my favorite. I kind of liked the old guy.

Agree with Mark and others that there is genuine humor in nearly all the stories and it hasn't been sufficiently recognized in the posts. Would argue, though, that the humor arises from a) the limitations in outlook and world view inherent in characters like Asbury or a Parker, or b) the interaction of two such clueless beings parsed together for comic effect. It's wry..but still dark, because at the end of several nights of reading, the ignorance starts to feel ubiquitous and all encompassing. Perhaps the take-away is: enjoy FO, but only in small carefully proportioned doses followed by the sunshine of your choice...

FrankH wrote: "Perhaps the take-away is: enjoy FO, but only in small carefully proportioned doses followed by the sunshine of your choice...
"


:)

I loved most of the stories. I was definitely shocked and appalled at places, but I think that was FO's intention. I agree with others here that she shows a sense of humor that is easy to miss. That being said I bought the complete collection of her short stories with the intention of reading ETRMC and then going on to finish the others. I think I'll wait a while before going on. The power of her stories could be lost in reading them in bulk. I was a little numb at the end of ETRMC.

I agree with Frank. I enjoy O'Connor's humor and gothic qualities, but small doses just might the key to not being able to enjoy her after a while!

I think it's a good idea to read FO sparingly, taking breaks. I also didn't notice the humor, at least not until someone here mentioned that there is humor; then I did notice it in one of the stories...

I kinda stopped reviewing each story after finishing them, and just went onto reading the next one. I enjoyed this collection, although I'm not usually a fan of the short story genre. Still Flannery O'Connor can make the characters come alive in my mind in few words. These stories (most of the time) sort of show in exaggerated form the moral weaknesses that we may have.

My favorite was probably The Lame Shall Enter First, which just goes to show how we tend to be better toward strangers than toward our own family, perhaps because we seek their approval, we present this kind of facade... "facade" may not be quite the right word, since we may be sincere in wanting to help out, but we just tend to dismiss our own family, with whom we live all the time, whose "negatives" we tend to see more clearly. But when Sheppard adopted this youngster (to help out this child he perceived as smart but from poor background without opportunity), he discovered all the negatives of Rufus, and wished to be rid of him. Sheppard figured out that he should have spent more for his own child, shown him as much compassion and patience, tried to figure out what he's interested in, etc.

Well, I know for sure that the strangers think better of me than I really deserve; because it's true I tend to do more for strangers than family. I'm involved in all these activities that my parents know almost nothing of... So in a way these stories serve as a mirror in which you can see yourself in exaggerated form. They don't tell you how to change, what to do instead, but seeing the issue is half the battle ;)

Julia wrote: "Rannie wrote: "Karina wrote: "Julia wrote: "one question: are the Greenleaves of African origen? I've read this in a review and it would make sense considering the first story - i just missed out o..."

Thanks for the link about FO...I found it very interesting!

I have to admit I rather enjoyed this book,it wasnt difficult to read and I found myself wanting to know what would happen next? I haven't read FO before and really didn't know what to expect. I usually don't care for short stories but found hers very gripping. My feeling is she wanted to shock her readers out of complacency.
I think A View of the Woods was my favorite. I almost thought that Mary Fortune was being beaten by her father as a "stand-in" for her grandfather? That is why she insisted she wasn't being beaten...as she understood her body was being used as a replacement for her grandfather since the father wasn't able to take out his rage on the person he REALLY wanted to beat.

Anybody have any thoughts of the significance of this book being featured in 'Lost'? (Season 5 finale)

Teresa wrote: "Mary Fortune ... understood her body was being used as a relacement for her grandfather" Interesting. I thought she was just distancing herself from her body during the beating, being unbeaten in spirit, but I like your take on it.

Barbra wrote: "I would have to say A View of the Woods was my favorite, also. On the back jacket of my book Thomas Merton, describes O’Conner this way: “I write her name with honor, for all the truth and all the..."

I know what you mean about knowing what is going to happen. Normally I would not like that, but with this author, I keep coming back for more.

Teresa wrote: "I have to admit I rather enjoyed this book,it wasnt difficult to read and I found myself wanting to know what would happen next? I haven't read FO before and really didn't know what to expect. I ..."

Wow, interesting interpretation, I had the same feelings like Rannie about the girl just being distanced from herself, and not admitting being beaten because she was angry at herself for letting it happen, but i also really appreciate your different view.

Stacey wrote: "Anybody have any thoughts of the significance of this book being featured in 'Lost'? (Season 5 finale)"

Wow, thanks for reminding me of this! At the time, I thought the title was so clever, what with Jacob reading the book. The storylines in Lost all seem to rise, twist and converge in unique ways. Now that I've read most of the book, it seems that the dark humor fits the Jacob persona. Also, the way that O'Connor observes and describes the every day events are a lot like the finale of lost where Jacob and his nemesis are talking about events on the island. Can't wait to hear what others think.

I enjoyed all the stories, but agree that I won't be reading another book by FO for awhile. I need to recover somewhat. I love your interpretation, Teresa, of the beatings of Mary by her father. I think that's better than any interpretation I was able to make. "The Lame Shall Enter First" was my favorite story, although I found the ending very disturbing. I didn't see Norton's suicide coming until very near the end, and almost put the book aside without reading the end. I am seldom moved to tears by books, but the death of this neglected, misunderstood child, just as his father finally saw the light, was so wrenching.

Kathleen wrote: "I enjoyed all the stories, but agree that I won't be reading another book by FO for awhile. I need to recover somewhat. I love your interpretation, Teresa, of the beatings of Mary by her father. I ..."

That story was very disturbing and sooooooo sad. The father didn't appreciate what he had until it was too late. I think there are definitely lessons in FO's stories. It seems to me she didn't think too highly of most people?

I agree -- she seems to have had a very dark view of humankind. I wonder if she had lived longer whether her views would have changed, if age would have mellowed her perspective and she would have had more opportunities to experience the good in people. Of course, dying of lupus is enough to make anyone take a dark view of life. She had a remarkable gift, and her insight into the human character was amazing. But in the end, it was her I felt most sorry for. What a dark and lonely place she seems to have existed in.

Kathleen, I agree...her circumstances I am sure had an effect on her writing. I very much like her writing and she does have moments of levity and humor. I think I will read one of her novels and see how that goes. (I think I will wait a while though)

MG wrote: "I just finished this book recently and while the writing was excellent and the stories will be hard to forget, I didn't like it. It felt like taking medicine; you know it's supposed to be good for but you don't like the taste. I'm glad I read it but it was slightly painful"

MG, that's exactly how i felt about it. some of the writing was lyrically beautiful, and FO did indeed have a gift of constructing a very real sense of place and character. i can see the stubborn set of Mary Fortune's jaw, and the tree she wrapped her arms around while her ankles were beaten. and yet, i'm just not in love with any of them. like several of you, i'm much more a fan of longer rather than short stories, and as such, i expect my short stories to have an incisive point (examples: hawthorne, o. henry). these ones were like very real slices out of people's lives: totally honest, warts & all, but i just kept missing the WHY of it all. of course, if she'd bludgeoned me over the head with her moralistic meaning, i'd be complaining about that, too.

and speaking of moral ambiguity, anyone notice the vague treatment of racism? i got the idea that to FO, it was like any other personality trait; some people have it, some don't, and it's nothing to do with good or evil. the racist mother on the bus is portrayed very sympathetically, while her "open minded" son is the one left to deal with his crushing guilt in the end. it seemed to me that we were far more concerned about false moral superiority, and knocking people off of their holier-than-thou pedastals.

I couldn't put this book down. It just captivated me and I have no idea why. I didn't really like any of the characters and it really depressed me. Short story collections normally do not interest me but this was very impressive. Her two novels are now two books I am planning on reading.

Michelle wrote: "MG wrote: "I just finished this book recently and while the writing was excellent and the stories will be hard to forget, I didn't like it. It felt like taking medicine; you know it's supposed to b..."

Michelle, I thinkt the point you make about O'Connor being ambiguous about racism really interesting - also in Judgment Day the black actor isn't a really "nice" character - he's righteously offended at the old man's treatment, but somehow the reader still likes the old guy who tries to make friendship the way he's known all his life and is sad for his bad end. Maybe O'Connor tries to make a point against people like the son of the first story who's kind of guilty of "positive racism".

I've so far finished 6 of the 9 stories in this collection and I'm very impressed with FO's stories, bleak as they are.

My favourite is definitely 'The lame shall enter first' - I can't recall having read anything so hauntingly tragic recently. I just keep coming back to the father saying 'I have nothing to reproach myself with. I did more for him than I did for my own child.' and how the meaning of that sentence changes slightly each time he says it until he finally realise what he's been missing all along - that he had a child worth saving right there but still went out looking for someone else and in finding another lost cause, lost both boys.

Some of these stories ('Lame', 'A view of the Woods' and the title story) I really liked while others ('Greenleaf', 'Comforts of Home' and 'The Enduring Home') didn't hit home with me.

Theresa, your interpretation of A View from the Woods is very insightful! Marys' denial of the beatings really puzzled me, but what you said makes so much sense. On one level she is being stubborn, doesn't want to admit defeat. Maybe she means "beat" as in "vanguished" emotionally. He didn't get her down even though he hurt her physically. But on a deeper level, yes, she recongizes that her father really wants to beat the old man; it's the old man he truly resents. Brilliant :-)

I had a professor in college (one of those effortlessly cool, young, attractive, intellectual types) who played "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Rolling Stones while we discussed Flannery O'Connor. I think we were talking about "A Good Man is Hard to Find" that day, but I can't help thinking of the song while I read these comments!

Eliza wrote: "I had a professor in college (one of those effortlessly cool, young, attractive, intellectual types) who played "Sympathy for the Devil" by the Rolling Stones while we discussed Flannery O'Connor. ..."

I had to go find that song and play it to refresh my memory. HA.......too funny!

mara wrote: "Theresa, your interpretation of A View from the Woods is very insightful! Marys' denial of the beatings really puzzled me, but what you said makes so much sense. On one level she is being stubbor..."

Who knows? I could be completely off base here? haha That is just the feeling I got while reading it. It is nice to know someone else thinks it might be a correct premise?