Writerpedia discussion

Most of the writers I know also teach - whether at a college or a high school or privately for writing workshops. I am a high school teacher and I teach private writing workshops. I also have my certification for college advising which is great because I can consult and it's mostly busy in the fall. I have a young adult fiction novel out in the world, Songs for a Teenage Nomad, and I make some money on this, but most of my income is from a blend of both my loves, writing and teaching...and mostly- the teaching of writing. I feel like it doesn't get any better than getting to do both. Plus, I feel like my students really inspire and inform my own writing.

I'm a Young Adult Fiction writer who used to be a magazine editor, and I still write for lots of magazines as a supplement to my book income. It's a different kind of writing, but it's all writing, and I feel really lucky to be able to do it as my job.

I would try to get a job in marketing, newspapers, even libraries. You can then pay the rent while establishing your writing chops and you would still use your writing skills.

Not yet ;-) . I moonlight as a Lt. for the Sheriff's Office until such time.

I wish. My writings were little, and I am now working on upgrading them, but publishing is still a next step. I am writing in Arabic.

I don't earn my main income from writing - but I always make sure to wave the cheques for articles I've written in front of my husband to be sure he knows all the time I spend writing pays off! haha! I work at a very mundane clerical job during the day - it has it's advantages as it doesn't tire me out and I can think about my writing while I work (and even do some editing during quiet periods!). Then I go home and put my ideas on paper.

I think I enjoy my writing more than I would if my whole income depended on it. Some people like to work under pressure but for me the pressure isn't intense enough to suffocate my creativity - and that's the way I work best. Still, if I ever get offered a large cash advance for a novel I might well opt to write fulltime...

Dianne Ascroft,
author of 'Hitler and Mars Bars'

I am working as a legal assistant (lots of research and reading, although the paralegal gets most of the fun stuff) and have also worked in marketing and as a researcher to other authors. I worked at a newspaper in advertising for almost 10 years and it surprisingly didn't lead to a career in writing. Newspapers also don't pay their editorial assistants very much.

I do make a living from my writing, but it doesn't come from just my books. Too bad. I write articles and blogs for other companies while finishing my sixth book, which I am co-authoring with Merrill Osmond. It keeps me busy and pays the bills.

I make a living writing, but it's in the dying profession of journalism. I wouldn't tell anyone to go into print reporting these days. The industry's contracting quickly, not expanding.

What are you talking about!!!

It seems that you HATE personal creative writing, or you don't have the least bit knowledge of what it really is. But then you are just a reporter for a small daily newspaper!

Pro writers are those who take their writing very personal and do it creatively! Not just for making money by writing "whatever the publication asks for", for goodness sake.

Good writing is writing that gives you personal satisfaction. It gives you pleasure because you write what you really like, not because of anything else. Good writing makes people to read it, forces people to understand it. It's different from journalism which is almost wholly bad kind of writing. Especially small daily newspaper journalism!

though i do not accept your comments completely, but found a difference voice with you.

long time, i am thinking about 'paralell journalism' and hope if we can start it, will be able to understand creative journalism.

Wow, Saut, your criticism of Ilima's comment is not only harsh but seems misplaced. The question that started this thread was "Are you making a living writing?" Ilima answered that question and her response, as I know being someone who works in the same industry as she does, is completely accurate.

At least in the U.S. -- and I realize you're in Indonesia, where things may be different -- smart writers with good clips can find plenty of freelance work, but they have to write what publications are asking for, not what personally interests them. Also, they have to be willing to make their writing style match that of the newspapers, magazines or other outlets they're working for.

I don't think Ilimi is saying that professional writers shouldn't also write creatively for their personal enjoyment in their spare time. They just shouldn't expect to be paid for it.

I would like to participate, on-line, on a creatrive writing workshop, to develop my writing abilities if have any.

Would appreciate any indication about this subject.

Thanks

Carlos

Carlos,

You might have good luck finding a reciprocal critiquing community on Multiply.com; or on some of the author/writer/reader groups on Ning.com; also Facebook.com has some writing groups.

If you were to join Romance Writers of America (which is not free) you would be able to join regional, or genre, or international chapters, and be able to participate (often for a small further fee) in online craft workshops.

It's been a while since I subscribed to Writer's Digest, which is a magazine serving the needs of aspiring writers, however Writer's Digest publishes some of the best How To (write) textbooks around.

Best wishes,
Rowena Cherry

Not yet. I just self-published my novel two months ago (5/14/08). It is a pleasure to dream that one day it will make much money.

My day job requires hard thinking. I usually work long hours. I was able to finish Reason Reigns (RR) in less than two years, and also got good performance reviews at work.

I worked on RR on the train/subway. I spent late nights, early mornings, and entire weekends writing. I slept no more than 4 hours daily. I haven't had the usual rest and relaxation for two years. But I feel great. I am so happy and proud of Reason Reigns.

Hi James,

Congratulations and good fortune on your book and the movie deal!

Hi Ilima,

It's delightful to read this: "I'm always amazed at how much work is out there -- I get more assignments than I have time for."

Then: "But you have to be willing to write about whatever the publication asks for..."

This must be torture, but worth it if one is doing it while striving for something enjoyable.

RE: "The bottom line is: if you're writing for yourself, that's likely to be the only person reading it."

Twelve publishers rejected The Fountainhead, saying that no audience existed for it. It has lived for 65 years. In June 2006, sales (in English) has exceeded 6.5M copies.

Many of the great writers learned their trade as journalists, and that includes starting out on a small newspaper.

Look at some of the collected works of great reporting, and you'll find words that sing with the same delicacy or power as the best novelists.

Malcolm

I don't think my critical comment of Ilima is misplaced. do read again what she wrote about "journalism" and "creative writing". her ideas are cliche and these kind of cliche that make journalism bad writing. new journalism or literary journalism, if she ever heard about this "creative" journalism, was started to counter Ilima's kind of straight-cum-boring journalism.

Good writers force newspapers, magazines or other outlets to pay for their writings. Only bad and mediocre writers "have to write what publications are asking for, not what personally interests them", if money is the only thing that they have in mind when writing!

Hi,

I think that first and foremost, we must remember that publishing houses and their editors can be wrong about "what sells". The first Harry Potter book was rejected several times before someone decided to give it a try... And the rest is history, as the saying goes;-)

As to the idea that a writer "has to be willing to write about whatever the publication asks for"... Hm. Maybe. Depends on what you mean, I think. First, there's a difference between writing for newspapers, journals and suchlike and writing stories for book publications. And even within those frames there are vast differences of preferences, styles etc.--which one has to keep in mind too when submitting something.

Also, a writer has to have a certain willingness to accept an editor's critical comments and then bend a story to accommodate those comments. So far, so good. But does that mean that a writer has to write about "whatever the publication asks for"? Certainly not. That depends on the particular market. If, for instance, you're writing in a so-called Shared World, with tight reigns on everything, yes, sure, then you can bet you often has to write whatever they want you to, if you want to stay writing in that World. But there's no evidence that such tight rules apply in all--or most--cases in the industry. (This is not first hand knowledge, of course, but reading about various authors' say on the matter, and frequently talking to some of them, that's the clear impression I got.) But, sure, you've got to squeek a story some, after the editor chimes in an opinion or two.

As to: "if you're writing for yourself, that's likely to be the only person reading it." I just don't see why that's true. As I see it, it's more a matter of "if you're the only person getting to read your story, you're the only reader it will ever have." In other words: Even if you write for yourself, mainly, because you just "feel like it"--if you'd still like to see it published, you've gotta step up and send it to someone... Or self-publish (this, then, will also demand that you are willing to put in a lot of active work to promote the book in various ways; not all writers like that part of it).

Just a few copper's worth of thoughts here on this Sunday morning;-)

Thanks Rowena for your interesting information.I will try to explore and use it. Thanks!

Have a nice week of writing and reading!

Carlos Marcos

Journalism is a great profession, even a noble one especially in countries with no freedom.

I have utmost respect for this profession, a necessity, for a country to be free and good. There are many journalists who have suffered and died. Reason Reigns honors journalism and journalists in chapters 3 [The Thinkers] & 4 [The Right Thing to Do].

Fact finding is a stimulating job. It requires courage and passion.

But say, one's boss asks one to write about the A-Rod or Brinkley divorce when one wants to study and write about innovations in the energy industry that could alleviate high gas prices, or about the role of government intervention in the housing mortgage market meltdown.

I would find working for such a boss torture, and for my self-respect and happiness, I would find another job.

For fiction writing: check out Ayn Rand's short story, "The Simplest Thing in the World." It is about a struggling writer who just has to do the simplest thing in the world to "succeed": he tells himself, "Just be stupid... Just relax and be as stupid as you can be."

This is the last sentence in the story: "Then he pushed the sheet of blank paper aside and reached for the Times' "Help Wanted" ads."

Have a great Sunday.

Dear Carlos,
Books and Writers Community is one of the best places on the net for writing workshops. It's free and it's been around longer than any other writing forum. In fact, it predates the internet. Here's the link:

http://community.compuserve.com/n/pfx...

You have to register, but it's free.

Marsha Skrypuch
www.calla.com

I guess I sparked a debate on whether journalism is a worthy profession. I worked for a daily paper, and they were constantly reducing the size of the space for news as compared to the space for ads. Magazines and the Internet are probably a better venue for serious news today versus the content in the average newspaper.

Thanks Marsha for your information!
Wish you a great week!
Carlos Marcos

hahaha...

what don't u read again what you actually wrote in the posting that I harshly commented on!

it's the way you judge creative writers in that posting of yours that I harshly commented on, not whether it sucks or not to get paid to write!

don't judge other writers who live for writing, not write for living.

everybody loves money. but not everybody lives for money. strange? well, isn't life stranger than fiction? in fact it's even much stranger than your kind of journalism, hahaha...

anybody here ever read a book called "Manufacturing Consent" by Noam Chomsky? it is about the state of American mainstream journalism especially regarding its relationship with American foreign policy.

a must read for anybody who wants to know that real journalism should be.

highly recommended. five big red stars.

cheers from Indonesia!!!

Hello everyone. I am new to Goodreads, and the site navigation seems a bit intricate, but think I am getting the hang of it. In my latter day incarnation, I'm a disability journalist, though I have been in a kind of quasi-limbo for a while because my power chair went ka-put and my landlord is renovating, and it is hard for me to produce under said conditions, let alone query if I have to meet a deadline.

I also do poetry, fiction, and creative memoir, wish I was good at science fiction, and have two novel projects I will probably never finish, but as journalism and op-ed work is where I get my money, I am interested in expanding into some limited punditry stuff. I have zip in terms of access to political figures, but I was wondering if anyone knows how to access secondary sources/issue articles without benefit of lexus? I don't want to pay the money for it, since I am not David Brooks and would die happy just to get one byline in The New Republic.

Nice to meet you all, and now that I've posted my spin, I will review some of your discussions.

I'm not sure that anyone writing about Japanese art history makes a full living at it, so I'm not expecting to. Having said that, so far my expectations have been exceeded so who knows... it's early days. I do talks too, and there's a bit of money in those... do they count? They're an off-shoot of the writing.

Well, I have been able to supplement my income as a freelancer, as I mentioned. I've made over 3k, not a lot, but at least I know I'm doable. I do keep up with the biz though, and it may be just as well that I am not sending queries now. Established journalists are hurting with this major downturn we are in. I would also add, that publishing for your vocation (poetry in zines) and publishing for money are really two different things, and although I still practice the literary genre, and always will, selling my work empowers me more.

I guess mentioning lexus was beyond the pay grade of this group, but the thought occurred to me that if I needed it for a piece, I could always ask if the editor would pay for my expenses.

Well, I screwed up last October and took a job for a local newspaper where I'm the only writer/editor and the "publisher" doesn't know a thing about real writing. He can't figure out why the stories by the woman who had the job before me were boring and mine aren't, but then he wants me to "fatten" them up, to write about high school sports--games and the like--as if I were there, but he doesn't want to pay me to actually go or anything. He came to my office door the other day and on this very subject--fattening--he intimated that since I'm a novelist and write whole books, this fattening a story up shouldn't be too hard. I told him I can write whole novels because I'm actually there, I see it all in my head. He didn't get it. He's asked me to do what amounts to "staging" the news for photo ops, which I won't do. So, yes, I am making a living writing, but if I didn't have a nine-year-old girl to support, I would've walked the first time he suggested I do something remotely dishonest or less than fully true.

So, I'm looking for a different job while I work for this guy, and work on my own stuff and publish others' stuff at home. Someday my little company, Jigsaw Press, is going to be a big company and support me and my daughter and I won't have to work for anyone else whose morals and ethics aren't equal to my own.

Mari

M.L. wrote: "Well, I screwed up last October and took a job for a local newspaper where I'm the only writer/editor and the "publisher" doesn't know a thing about real writing. He can't figure out why the storie..."

How can the publisher not know even the basics of Journalism 101? That's sad. I know newspapers are in major trouble, but local dailies should be able to survive web 2.0 for a little while. Luck to you Mari.

Good luck, M.L. My Mom supported & raised me alone for quite a few years. It's tough. I raised 3 with a wife & it's tough, but at least there's some backup. Can't imagine doing it alone.

I had a similar experience with the 'fattening'. I turn bowls as a hobby & one of the big selling points is a 4x6 photo card that describes where the wood came from & something about it. Sometimes there isn't much to say or it isn't all that intriguing. One store owner wanted me to fluff them up & even said I should make stuff up, "Who's going to know?" I turned her down flatly & wound up taking my bowls out of her shop shortly after that.

My best year, I made $2500 selling them. It wasn't quite enough to pay for the new lathe... Still, a hobby that almost pays for itself isn't bad.

Joanne,

The saddest part of all with this job I have is that the "publisher" is so smart he doesn't know that he doesn't know about a lot of things, writing included. And he's not going to listen either.

Here's an example: He's been in a Montana a whole year. We had a December to run away from--fifty inches of snow all total, below zero temps, nasty. The Chinooks come--nice warm winds from the Southwest that make winter in Montana bearable. It's close to fifty degrees outside and the sun's out and it's warm. I remark on how nice it is that the Chinooks have come. My boss says those aren't Chinook winds because Chinooks come from the northwest. I was so flabbergasted I said uh, ok and went back to my office. I called my mother in Oklahoma (she's originally from South Dakota) to tell her this just to give her and my dad a laugh. My neighbor wonders how the whole state of Montana and all the weatherpeople here could have been so wrong for so long, then he laughs and tells his wife and she laughs. Anyone can Google Chinook wind and find out all about them, but my boss is too "smart" to do that. I thought about sending a link or two on Chinooks to his email, then wondered why I would waste my time. Smart women threaten him. I told him that once and freaked him totally out. He's bent on proving me wrong ever since, but...well...LOL...the other two girls in the office are scared to death of him.

Jim,
Thanks so much for the support. Being a single mom and trying to set an example for my child is not easy. Honesty in general is hard to come by these days. I'll get through this.

Your bowls sound absolutely wonderful, but I wouldn't lie about them either. And anyone who would want you to lie isn't someone I want to do business with.

Like I said, if I wasn't supporting my daughter, I would've left this job already. But this is something I leave to God. Never know what he has planned in the scheme of things. Meanwhile, I just ride this horse until a better one comes along.

Mari

I can freelance, such as that amounts to of late, because it's only me and two cats and an ex-fiance who lives below me. The only reason I still have a relationship with him is because there is no one else, and with this loaner chair my ability to journey out is more hamstrung. I can't even go to 30th street station this morning to see the Obama inaugural train head off to Delaware! But I am watching from my window, and the grand old building looks like a newly made fortress. I am working on a commentary about new brand neo-conservatives and the failure of the ADA, which is getting longer than I thought, and while I am at it, I'm nixing markets in my head: "Slate will ignore me; The Nation won't bother; New Mobility likely won't give me a second byline, and Christian Science Monitor would be dicey. It is neither cerebral nor localized enough for a TNR diarist space--which is my best shot for an opener TNR clip..." Yet on I go, choo-chooing scold of platitudes and yesterday's news.

But I can do this to myself, as an old and battle-scarred cynic. You have the obligations as a parent, and dealing with a boss like that can't be all that empowering if he will not respect your ability. I don't know the western scene Mari. My political cap is fused to the Northeast corridor, and my literary output, such as that remains, takes few chances with venues such as Praire Schooner--although one of my convoluted murder stories did make it past the first reader at Cutbank, which I think is published in your state. If I can think of a connection who might assist you then I'll gladly post the suggestion, but you would know better than I where your clips might lead you to something more rewarding, if not more secure than my roulette games.

All I can tell myself is what I am going through now will end in six months, and then I can really get back in the game. One of the few jobs I could still hold, with the appropriate accommodation, is at a magazine--or a small paper, maybe similar to yours.

Well, anytime you want to move to Montana, I will gladly give you my job, if you can stand the boss. LOL I've rarely hoped this on any job, but I hope he fires me. Then I can go back to subbing in the schools, which I really like, although it's not an income I can count on. I thought about going to college to become a teacher, but I don't know as I could afford to and still support my child. But I like teaching middle school-age kids. They get my jokes, most of them...LOL...they're the right age that I'm cool enough to relate to them and strict enough to command their respect. They all know I take no prisoners, yet the kids called me the coolest sub in school last year. I miss them.

Now, if I had my druthers I'd just stay home and write and publish and someday provide some good jobs for the people around here who don't have them. That's my ultimate goal. This Spring my company Jigsaw Press is going to do an anthology of stories from the middle school (if all goes well) and I'd dearly love to have the time to go into school on Fridays and show them layout and typesetting and editing, book cover design, just to give them another idea for a career. But I doubt my boss is going to let me.

Any profits we make from the anthology are going into the student fund. My company is donating the setup fees, the editing, the typesetting, the ISBN, the whole works. I'd like to make it an annual thing. We'll have to see how it goes.

Cut Bank is a city in my state, north of me near the Canadian border. I'm outside of Great Falls. I've lived east and west, north and south, and I have to say the West is best, at least for me. People in general are all right, especially here in Montana, Tennessee transplant bosses aside.

Mari

It's now 24 months after the last post, but I thought I'd respond anyway, in case any of you is still struggling in the world of paid writing Yes, I write for a living. I write feature stories for the lifestyle section of a local daily newspaper. I also design pages. I was absolutely in the right place at the right time for this job. I worked at a coffee shop for years while I freelanced at a different paper and looked for something full-time. Though I'd written for my school paper in college, I really didn't have enough experience to find anything concrete — until I saw a listing for a temporary, part-time fact checker. I applied and got the job; then, days later, the summer internship at the paper became available, and the editor offered it to me. I said of course! (That was the last internship they offered, since after that the economy tanked.) Three months later, when the internship ended, the position I have now opened, by coincidence. I had never worked for a paper (except to write those few freelance articles), never done anything in design. Yes, I have an English degree, but in the world of journalism, it's all about what you can do, what you HAVE done, and who you know. Three years later, I'm still at the paper.

(M.L.: So sorry for your troubles at your paper in Montana. I hope you've found something better since then. Not all dailies are like that.)

I encourage any of you still interested in writing to build your portfolio and look for a way in. The big papers are folding, but the small dailies are hiring. At my paper, there's a big turnaround rate, because we're only a small step on the rung of the writing/editing business. We do fill those positions. So keep looking, but while you do, also invest time in learning about ways to write for the Web, because newspapers won't last forever, unfortunately.

In my spare time, I write fiction. My goal is to be a novelist. (Yet another dying field, huh?)

Josette,

I wouldn't say novelist is a dying field, just an increasingly crowded one. And if I had half a penny for every would-be author who pops up saying I don't read, I wouldn't have to work at all.

The bottom line prescription to be a novelist is read, read, read, and write, write, write--every day. That's it. But I guess this is too simple for some folk. Not saying that about you, Josette, jus' sayin'...

When it comes to 90% of the books and courses out there purporting to teach would-be novelists the craft, I say keep your money in your pocket, unless you're going to spend it on the next novel you plan to read. You only need a couple of books--Self-editing for fiction writers by Renni Browne and Dave King; and Stephen King's On Writing. After that, you read, read, read and write, write, write. Every day.

Some people must plan their novels down to the nth degree, but I let the characters tell their own stories. It's more fun that way. I am my book's first reader.

What galls me is all these would-be writers hawking their raw stuff when they don't read, they don't edit, they don't know what typesetting is, or layout or design--in other words, they think they can whip out a manuscript in thirty days, look for typos, make a .pdf file and voila, they're done. This is why the fiction field is increasingly crowded. Everyone has a book in them, or so "they" say, but no one said the book was any good.

Writing good fiction is an art that requires practice and interminable research and a clear understanding of when less is more.

You must be able to define showing versus telling. I submit most so-called novelists these days can't even do that.

But none of this was directed at you personally, Josette--this is just the rant of a tired editor/publisher/novelist, who sees more and more trash being passed off as good fiction, and by the big boys, too, not just the independents or the self-published.

Mari

Mari,

Thanks for the advice. :) Oh, believe me, I do read and write as much as possible, and I know what you mean about books that inexplicably make it through to publication. I've read some in the past year that baffled me at how boring/badly-written/pointless they were.

I've been reading Stephen King's "On Writing," too. I have the Browne/King book on my to-read list. Thanks!

Josette

You'll want to own that Browne/King book. My copy's well worn. You can usually find one at Overstock.com for cheap.

Mari

Thanks, Mari. I will!

NO (short answer)
Will I stop writing? Absolutely not. Luckily for me I'm not dependant on the money, cos I'm addicted to the process.

Make money from writing?! What a concept!

I started out writing magazine articles. I once added up how much I'd been paid for articles compared to how much time I'd spent writing them, and it came to about $2 per hour. I think if I did the same calculation for my first book it would turn out to be not quite as profitable. I could certainly make more money by getting a part-time job at Taco Bell, and I'd probably get some free food in the bargain. But it wouldn't be as interesting.

In real life, I work as a software engineer. I guess that job involves a fair amount of writing. I write users manuals and other sorts of documentation for software products. I suppose there's a lot more fiction in these documents than in many novels, but that's another story.