Tips for Self Promotion, Sales, and Advertising discussion

ditto vicki. Yes it's nice to have a publisher, but the game has changed; nice, but you don't NEED anymore.


David, I checked it out. I'd say you got grounds for a law suit; defamation of character maybe. Sorry, bro, just tryin' to cheer you up. sounds like you could us it.

j guevara
www.jguevaranovels,com

I agree that you don't need a publisher, or guidelines if you're self publishing. But IF you choose to submit to a publisher, being flippant about the guidelines will only get you tossed in the garbage without being read.
Like it or not that's the business. Editor's could care less what you spent on your website. Half of the reason they have guidelines is to see how cooperative you are going to be in a working relationship that could last years.
If you don't submit to them, then cool. ignore/blow off, diss the guidelines.
But if that's how you feel, then you probably don't want to work with a publisher/editor anyway, so I can't see why you'd submit to them at all.

I think self-publishing is a legitimate option in some circumstances, and it's definately a growing industry worth watching, but I'd be really interested in someone (anyone, please) doing a non-biased comparative study of exactly how much money all these self-run authors are making compared to those with a publisher.
I have not theories either way, mind you. There are a lot of folks with publishers makin bupkis too. But I've yet to see anyone self-published that has been able to ditch their day job...or been willing to give out definitive sales numbers even.

I think there's room for both/all methods and Im tickled to see things opening up.. good for readers no matter what.

Frances

Thanks for clarifying David. I'm having no luck getting any of the older comments in the thread to come up on my screen.

It sounds like the fault lay with the retailers in that situation, and that the publisher literally bent over backwards to take care of the situation before finally folding.

I feel for you as well, but don't despair too hard. Many a good book has thrived despite bad art. (course, I don't know just how bad it was)

For me, I adore my publisher and like you, worked my hiney off to get them. My first release date is still a ways away, but I look forward to the day I get to see that, glossy, tacky, horrid piece of cover art with my name on it....
I sort of always figured the art wouldn't live up to my standards. It's like an initiation of sorts, and a battle scar to show off later when the disapointment has worn off.

I wish you the best of luck with your book, sales and adjusting to the cover. If you can manage, laugh it off and/or run with it. I think you'll still do fine. You got that contract, after all.

cheers
Frances

I have some experience with several of these topics...
I self-published "Slug Bread & Beheaded Thistles," in 1995--wrote, illustrated, and promoted it myself. The cover was my design. S.B. sold about 10,000 copies, and then an agent contacted me, and was able to sell the reprint rights to Broadway/Doubleday. So I've seen how the same book did when self-published and when released by a major publisher. It was way less work and I made way more money when it was published by Broadway/Doubleday.

Self-publishing is a LOT of work, not to mention that this was in the days before print on demand publishing, so the cartons of books were stored in our kitchen hallway for several years. If you have written a good book, are really good at self-promotion, are a competent bookkeeper,denjoy shipping things, and don't mind working like crazy, self-publishing may be a good fit for you. Unfortunately, I am not good at self-promotion, I am terrible with numbers, and shipping drives me crazy!

I have also had a bit of experience with publishers' cover designs. I think the key to not having a design crammed down your throat is to have a really good agent. My agent had added a clause to my last three contracts that stated that the author had the final say in the cover design, and had to approve the cover before it could be used. I still have not been able to design any of my book covers since "Slug Bread," but at least I can say "no" if a design really rubs me the wrong way. I said no to many, many iterations of the "Organic Housekeeping" cover, and I made suggestions about the color scheme of the latest one, "Green Barbarians."

To sum up: if you are a good entrepreneur, self-publishing may be for you, if you are not particularly entrepreneurial, a good agent is really a necessity.

I certainly agree with all you say, but wish you would give a clue as to how you managed to sell 10,000.00 copies of your self published book on your own. I recently published "SPARKS FROM THE FIRE- a journey beyond survival" in much the same way as you, got excellent feedback from readers, but it moves slowly without finding the right way to promote it. Increased financial gains are secondary to my aim.

I was very, very lucky and got a really fun, really enthusiastic review in the local newspaper, which was owned by Knight-Ridder (this was in 1995, mind you). By lucky happenstance, I learned that I could request that the review be put on the newswire, and would go out to all the Knight Ridder papers. The reviewer happened to be on vacation and unreachable when the review was published, but I talked someone at the paper into putting the review on the wire. The review was picked up by quite a few other Knight Ridder newspapers, and then unaffiliated papers began reviewing the book. I sent a copy of the book to the Midwest buyer for Barnes & Noble, who immediately sent it on to headquarters in New York, where the decision was made to order copies for selected stores all over the country, but first, B&N sent me a list of distributors, because they couldn't buy books directly from me. So, I sent copies of the book to distributors on both coasts, in the midwest, and to a distributor that sold to gift shops and garden centers--that distributor turned out to be really vital, because my future agent bought a copy of my book at a garden center on Long Island a few years later. I also did quite a few radio interviews.

Moral: You really need to be reviewed by the media.

Ellen wrote: "I was very, very lucky and got a really fun, really enthusiastic review in the local newspaper, which was owned by Knight-Ridder (this was in 1995, mind you). By lucky happenstance, I learned that ..."

Eva wrote: " I certainly agree with all you say, but wish you would give a clue as to how you managed to sell 10,000.00 copies of your self published book on your own. I recently published "SPARKS FROM THE F..."

Thanks so much Ellen. This makes I lot of sense to me.
Lot has changed since 1995, but the route you followed might still work. I will try and see where it will take me. If it was meant to be, it will be.
Eva

Good Luck Eva, and I really do mean it! It really does seem to revolve around luck.

I think a lot of what Frances says makes sense. Publishing is a business - just yesterday in an interview, I was talking about developing a businesslike attitude and added, "It's called the publishing business, not the publishing art form." Publishing is about selling books, and no publisher has any interest in putting an unattractive, off-putting cover on a book. When the art department chose the cover for our book, we brought up problems with it and defended our issue (the cover art was clearly Victorian in style and our book is Regency); the art department then submitted five alternatives to us and the one they chose was my 2nd choice and my co-author's 1st choice.
Publishers want sellable books, but there are a lot of sellable books to choose from - they prefer to pick up sellable books by those authors who are businesslike, professional, discreet, cooperative and reasonable.

janetility.com

Excellent point, J. I hate to say it, and I will probably get hollered at for it, but it also follows that someone with experience in the business of selling books just *might* have a better idea of what's going to sell your book, or my book for that matter, than the author who is understandably, but obviously in love with the story and not looking from an objective-business standpoint.
I think that you can be an artist while you're writing the thing, but when it comes time to edit and sell it, you have to change hats.
Loving your work too much can kill it, especially when it comes to editing and taking critique with a smile and an open ear/mind. Same with covers and markets...if you don't trust the editor/publisher/agent your working with to do right by your book, then find a diff. one. If you don't trust anyone but yourself to do right by your book, then, yeah, maybe you should self-publish.
But part of being a traditional/career writer is letting go of control, maybe that involves a lot of prayer and a lot of tears/hair pulling and, in my case, a lot of chocolate... but it's got to happen.

Frances

Back to the original topic, of course, it sounds like the publisher tried and tried and the bloody markets made the wrong choice for the book.

Business isn't always kind, unfortunately.

Frances

Hey Frances,

I think ultimately whether you self pub or trad pub it's about the same things: Writing a good book, and being able to market it. If the book sucks then it "usually" doesn't get picked up by a trad publisher though there are some exceptions obviously. So that hurdle is normally cleared but sometimes it doesn't have enough marketing behind it (really common for many authors on the midlist) and the book sinks or swims on the author's own marketing efforts.

Self-pub isn't a panacea, but if the book is good and the author gets out there, it can be successful. I absolutely believe I can match the average midlist author's earnings, as an indie, once I've built up a backlist of several books. It's all about the work and getting out there.

However, since self-published books "are" the slush pile, meaning that there is no one to stop crap from getting published... There are significantly fewer indie authors making good money. And of course there is the marketing issue too. You can write gold but if you aren't a business person, it's not going to make you good money.

And totally agree with Vicki on cover art being part of why I self-pub. I just have to be in control of that. I do not need nor do I want a publisher to come in with a cover I don't like, or change my title, or mess with my content, or do goofy things like releasing the ebook later (which only encourages more piracy).

I understand trad publishing is still meaningful for a lot of people but for me I'd rather be indie.

Z

I think that's spot on. If you have the skills to be the business person, it can work. I get a little twitchy when I hear it billed as an easy alternative to trad pubbing, because I know how much work goes into self-publishing, hard work, sweat, tears, and money as well. Rewarding maybe, but easy, no. Also I think you make a good point about the slush pile, and I hate to see the success rate represented as great for self-pubbing when I know it's a rare few that end up with the kind of success you're working for.
I went something of a middle route and signed with some really fantastic e-publishing houses. So, I don't have to do all the work, but I do get a lot more say about covers and my book than with most traditional publishers.
I really like what's come from it so far.
The coolest part of all this is that there isn't just one clear route anymore. Authors have choices, viable legitimate choices that they didn't used to...and that is always a good thing.

Frances

Oh I totally agree! I hate when people act like self-pub is easy. It may be technically easy to put anything out there, but it's not easy to write, and package a good book and market it. IMO self-pub is even harder than trad pub for an author. (And I'm talking about once a trad author HAS a publisher, because I know that part is hard for a lot of people.) So it really grates on me when someone assumes I'm trying to take a shortcut. Since when is busting your butt working a shortcut to anything?

I'm glad you found a fit that works for you! Yeah I find it very interesting that there are ebook authors who aren't really interested in pursuing print publishing and there are indie authors who aren't really interested in getting a contract.

I also find it interesting how dramatically attitudes and views have changed toward self publishing in the past couple of years with the economy issues and ebooks becoming even more popular. I absolutely believe E will be the primary delivery method within the next 10 years.

I'm with you on that...if nothing else than because of how vehemently the print industry is trying to convince the world that it's not happening. ;-)
My novels are coming out in both formats, and my novellas strictly in E. I will probably still try the traditional route at some point, but even if I landed that big contract, I plan on keeping an electronic presence and continuing to put out e-books through small houses. Primarily becaue I believe in it as an industry with a big future.
I like that the stigma toward self-publishing has been changing a lot as well. Too many people in the book world tend to dismiss anything that isn't old school.
It's worth noting, also, that things in the print world aren't as rosy for the author as they used to be. More and more houses require their authors to do a lot of their own promoting. It seems like an author's work is never done, no matter which path they pick. ;-)
And I thought I'd just get to write my days away. lol

Frances

I dread working with third parties like there's no tomorrow. Not only do they skim off your money on the top - and plenty of it - in addition it usually takes them forever to pay you, you have lay down and bend to their will and jump when they whistle. Just not my cup of coffee, really.

That's why I decided to self-publish my dime novel series "Jason Dark" and go all the way by myself. I am offering print versions as well as digital versions of my booklets and I'm happy doing it. It gives me the freedom to do what I want, how I want it, and on top of it all it gives me the peace of mind that I know I can control and direct things in the directions that I see fit. It may potentially limit my commercial success, I understand, but that is a risk I am happy to take. Success in my eyes is not measured purely in holy dollars.

Frances,

LOL yeah two things made me decide to self-publish:

1. Finding out that most NY pubbed authors and even a few who have hit "the list" aren't making a living solely from their writing. (I mean what's the point of two practically full-time jobs?)

2. All the marketing they still expect you to do for yourself and the very little marketing support most midlist books receive. I mean screw that, you want me to do ALL that work and STILL just make a "royalty?" LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Comedy gold.

Guido,

Great words! Viva La Resistance! Go indie! :D

Z

Guido wrote: "but that is a risk I am happy to take. Success in my eyes is not measured purely in holy dollars"

You are absolutely correct, satisfaction does not come from money, it comes from writing. I have never written for the money, if I had, I really would be dissatisfied. I love writing and I have a message to share with young people.

People who want money don't waste their time writing, they get a job, job. Writing is a wonderful gift, but show me a writer who makes money at it and I will show you fifty who don't. (maybe more)

Dr Robert E McGinnis

My post may have sounded overly extreme. I think publishers do have their legitimate place in the business. I am just an extreme case of a do-it-yourself personality. It's been like that all my life.

There are many befits working with a publisher that I do not have. The fact that there are many things you do not have to worry about - like finding a cover artist, commissioning artwork and getting it polished to quality, handling a lot of the business end, including sales and distribution - can be a blessing.

Lori, most publishers don't give you 3 covers to choose from. Was it a smaller publisher? Generally speaking a NY publisher is just going to do what they're going to do and you're stuck with it.

Z