Jane Austen discussion

Would it be fair at this point to ask what strikes you at whatever spot you are in reading Emma? We are still heavily discussing many of the characters, but just to pause and ask what are you thinking of Emma the novel? What is making it stand out to you? Among other novels? Among Austen's novels?

It is striking me with the incredible detail and rich dialog. Does it seem to anyone else simply a richly detailed novel, maybe moreso than other Austen novels? The setting, the characters, the stories of each character, the happenings (the arrival of the piano, the planning of the dinners and the ball of course, etc.) Austen lets us in on so much here.

Emma is THE most complex and elaborate novel that JA ever wrote, but at the same time, it masks a great deal of its complexity under a shimmering surface.

It is perhaps the greatest novel ever written by anybody anywhere.

I think one of the things that makes this book different is that almost all of the action is confined to Highbury. Even when people go away somewhere, we don't get much detail about it. The town and its inhabitants are important to the story and important to Emma. They don't vary much and none of them fade in and out of the story.

But what happens outside Highbury in many ways determines what happens inside Highbury.

Yes, it just isn't portrayed by Austen in any great detail. Unlike P&P, where we spend a lot of time at Rosings or Pemberley. And while Lizzie is at Rosings, we don't know what's going on at Longbourn, until the letter arrives. The action follows Lizzie, but "Emma" stays focused on Emma.

That is how skillful JA became in creating shadows of action "offstage" by the time she was writing Emma. The whole point is that the point of view of the novel is Emma's point of view, a claustrophobic, narcissistic, clueless perspective on what is happening around her.

That is the big joke of the novel--Emma is a heroine in her own mind, but she's actually a supporting player in the larger drama.

Compared to other Jane Austen novels I thought the narration much more pronounced? in Emma (not sure if that is the right way to describe it. The narrator had so much more to say and had such a voice in all that happened. Yes we see things through Emma's eyes, but what she doesn't see (especially about herself) the narrator clues us in on.

That is true, but my argument is that there is another way of reading the novel in which the narrator has NOT clued us in on another layer of what is happening in the novel---that's what I call the "shadow story" of the novel.

Arnie wrote: "That is true, but my argument is that there is another way of reading the novel in which the narrator has NOT clued us in on another layer of what is happening in the novel---that's what I call the..."

You could say that about any book really. The author sets out the story and moves the characters around in it, but there a a multitude of things we don't see. That's why Austen gives us a narrator -- to tell the story that is behind the action.

If possible, let's discuss what Austen wrote in her books and how you perceive/feel about what she says. Please post your shadow story theory on a separate thread.

Good idea about the separate thread. What I am saying about Jane Austen's novels, you cannot say about any book--she did something special and relatively unique, and Emma is her most perfect expression.

I think having the discussion on a separate thread will let people explore the idea of a shadow story, and debate whether or not they agree with the idea. And, it will give you a place to define it more clearly.

These posts are meant to discuss Austen and our thoughts on her works and characters. There are many Austen-like books that try to give us a look at the lives not seen in JA's books, Mr. Darcy's Diary, for example. So, people are interested in the story they aren't given by Austen, too.

Very good.

I think some of my favorite passages in Emma are the long ones in the beginning when each character is introduced with history there often so much sarcasm and with there. You can tell Austen loves her characters with all their faults and flaws.

I know Meredith. For example, there is so much about Frank and the Churchills that I feel that he is part of my own family! I'm not saying that is a good thing.

Arnie wrote: "[Emma:]is perhaps the greatest novel ever written by anybody anywhere. "

Very perhaps. I love Emma, but in terms of greatness it's hard to place it ahead of novels like War and Peace, Middlemarch, Bleak House, and others.

Sarah wrote: "Would it be fair at this point to ask what strikes you at whatever spot you are in reading Emma? "

Several things.

Perhaps most notably, the sly and understated humor, which is never biting or cruel (well, almost never; with the Eltons one might consider it rather cruel).

Then she has the gift of creating very distinguishable characters who come to life on the page. She shares this with Dickens, but her characters are somehow kinder and gentler than most of Dickens's.

And finally, I love that her novels take place almost entirely in the country or village, or at worst in towns like Bath which are far from the harsh London or other city life which is in so many other novels of the general period. There is a civilized gentleness which she shares with Trollope which makes her a simple pleasure to read.

Everyman wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Would it be fair at this point to ask what strikes you at whatever spot you are in reading Emma? "

Several things.

Perhaps most notably, the sly and understated humor, which is neve..."

I never tire of her characters. They are remarkably varied and so easy to relate to, even though her world and ours is vastly different. Maybe that's why reading her books gives me this very unrealistic longing for JA's way of life. It just seems like it would be so nice to live in Highbury or maybe Pemberley!

I'm not nearly as far into the book as many of you are and this is my first time reading it so right now just small things are striking me. One of the things that strike me is that Jane likes to use the word "amiable". I've noticed that whenever she describes a person that is supposed to be good that this word is used, yet on others, those Emma doesn't like or think well of; It's not. Something small i know, but it caught my attention.

I also noticed that there isn't a lot of scenery being described. I think this is rather nice since then you can make up on own mind on how things look.

Amiable is a nice word, isn't it? We don't use it much anymore, but Austen gave it some importance.

Jeannette wrote: "Amiable is a nice word, isn't it? We don't use it much anymore, but Austen gave it some importance."

I do agree. My vocabulary is vastly expanding reading Jane. ^^

Melissa wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "Amiable is a nice word, isn't it? We don't use it much anymore, but Austen gave it some importance."

I do agree. My vocabulary is vastly expanding reading Jane. ^^"

Mine, too, with words like diffidence and obsequious.

Jeannette wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "Amiable is a nice word, isn't it? We don't use it much anymore, but Austen gave it some importance."

I do agree. My vocabulary is vastly expanding reading Jane. ..."

I have to look those up. ^^ Haven't encountered them yet.

I cheated -- I scanned through P&P. I always want to be sure I'm not remembering words from a screen version. Although I love Jane describing Caroline Bingley as "pernicious" in the 2005 movie, it is not in the book for the same scene. :)

I really liked Emma (I kept laughing at loud so much that my husband thought I was going nuts--that and yelling at the book at some parts). I really wished that there was more explanation for Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax. I read Mr. Knightley's Diary and it gave just a little bit more of a glimpse, but it really did leave me wondering for more. And not liking Frank as much. I kept picturing "Clueless" (since I know that it was an adaptation). I really loved the characters of Mr. Woodhouse and Emma's elder sister.

Shaun wrote: "I really liked Emma (I kept laughing at loud so much that my husband thought I was going nuts--that and yelling at the book at some parts). I really wished that there was more explanation for Fran..."

**************SPOILERS******************

It would be nice to know more about Jane and Frank. He's such a "card" and she seems so reserved. Is it a case of opposites attracting? And, Mr. Knightley was a bit prejudiced against Frank for several reasons. :)

Jeannette wrote: "Shaun wrote: "I really liked Emma (I kept laughing at loud so much that my husband thought I was going nuts--that and yelling at the book at some parts). I really wished that there was more explan..."

I wonder if the book Jane Fairfax: The Secret Story of the Second Heroine in Jane Austen's Emma would explain what went on. It should since it's supposed to be Jane's side of the story.

I haven't read any of the Austen variations of Emma. I have liked other books of Joan Aiken's, so I feel she is a good writer. We discussed her continuation of Mansfield Park here in this group this past fall. I am planning to read A Visit to Highbury/Another View of Emma, but I don't know yet what it has to say about Jane and Frank. There are also a few from Knightley's viewpoint. You may know of these already.

It is fun to think about the Jane & Frank story, because it is hard to believe they are compatible.

I think what is interesting is that Jane was actually okay with Frank flirting with another girl! If I was her, I wouldn't have been so cool with that. Thanks for the reading suggestion! I'll definitely check that out. I mean, the character of Jane is such an interesting contrast with Emma. I think that Jane Austen's books do leave a lot for discussion, which is why they are so fascinating hundreds of years after they have been published!

Shaun wrote: "I think what is interesting is that Jane was actually okay with Frank flirting with another girl! If I was her, I wouldn't have been so cool with that. Thanks for the reading suggestion! I'll de..."

Your welcome. ^^ I do agree that Jane is a very interesting situation. I don't think i could do what Jane did either. Especially to the extent that Frank went too. Frank wasn't just flirting at times it seemed, but was throwing himself upon Emma.

It's a curious thing, all of these secret engagements and/or understandings that Austen writes about. We have Frank and Jane in Emma, Anne and Wentworth in Persuasion (very few people knew of their early attachment), Lucy Steele and Edward in S&S. All of these people kept their lips sealed and their emotions bottled up. Then along came Marianne who flaunted this rule and "chased" after Willoughby. Frank Churchill would not have stood a chance at keeping her quiet and rubbing her face in it, as he did with Jane. :)

I love the point you made Jeannette! I can't beleive all they kept all these secrets!! Can you imagine Marianne with Frank, she would probably storm across the room and slap him! (Maybe not, that wouldn't have been very lady like!)

I have read the Aiken book and can highly recommend it if you are interested in Jane Fairfax. Now that I have read it she always appears as the second heroine to me. In A Visit to Highbury I don't think you will find out more about Jane and Frank since it is from Mrs. Goddard's point of view, but it is a fantastic read!

That's exactly what I was thinking, Meredith! She would have given back what she got, I bet.

I have Later Days at Highbury at home from the library and hope to get to it soon.

LOL Jeannette! I love Marianne!

You may already know this but Later Days is actually the sequel to A Vist to Highbury. You may want to read that one first, if your library has it.

Can they be read out of order? Having just read Emma, I don't know if I want to read Mrs. Goddards story. But, then again, they are both pretty short.

Yes, but Mrs. Goddard's correspondent is her sister, Mrs. Pinkney, whose character is established in the first book. You may feel like you don't know her story well enough if you read the second book first.

Meredith wrote: "Yes, but Mrs. Goddard's correspondent is her sister, Mrs. Pinkney, whose character is established in the first book. You may feel like you don't know her story well enough if you read the second b..."

All right, I'm looking forward to reading them both, now! :) I think I'll wait til I'm done with
Jane Bites Back: A Novel.

Jeannette wrote: "Shaun wrote: "I really liked Emma (I kept laughing at loud so much that my husband thought I was going nuts--that and yelling at the book at some parts). I really wished that there was more explan..."

I just found another book that may be to your interest. It's called Lovers' Perjuries; Or, The Clandestine Courtship Of Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill: A retelling of Jane Austen's EMMA
The official description reads:

Have you ever wondered about the hidden romance contained within Jane Austen's Emma? This literary retelling of Austen's classic novel focuses on the courtship and secret engagement of Jane Fairfax and Frank Churchill. How did two people of such evidently disparate temperaments fall in love? How was "the most upright female mind in the creation" persuaded to keep their engagement secret? What were the thoughts and feelings of each as events unfolded during that spring and summer in Highbury? Written with great fidelity to the original, Lovers' Perjuries fills in all the details of scenes only hinted at in Emma. It also introduces new characters in a substantial subplot inspired by Persuasion, but featuring a lively heroine more reminiscent of Elizabeth Bennet than Anne Elliot. NOTE: THIS IS THE
COMPLETE TEXT IN ONE VOLUME.

One more for my tbr pile. Thanks Melissa!

Jeannette wrote: "One more for my tbr pile. Thanks Melissa!"

Your welcome. ^^

I'm hunting that one down! That sounds really interesting! Thank you!

Sorry to stray off the topic. I think it questions conventionalism. The amazing think about Mr. Knightly is he ‘moves’ to Highbury. How common was this in Jane Austen’s time?

Dhara wrote: "Sorry to stray off the topic. I think it questions conventionalism. The amazing think about Mr. Knightly is he ‘moves’ to Highbury. How common was this in Jane Austen’s time? "

Mr. Knightley was very secure in who he was. He knew what was "right" and that is how he acted.

I suppose if a man married up, he might move (any one marrying Anne de Bourgh, for instance). But, the men in Austen's world had the money and the property -- the women came to them.

Thanks for bringing us back on topic! :)

A true gentleman.. then

Dhara wrote: "A true gentleman.. then"

Yes, definitely a true gentleman.

I wish I read Emma prior to the SATs. New word for today: valetudinarian (sickly).

Dhara wrote: "I wish I read Emma prior to the SATs. New word for today: valetudinarian (sickly). "

Does that describe Mr. Woodhouse? What a strange word!

Jeannette wrote: "Dhara wrote: "I wish I read Emma prior to the SATs. New word for today: valetudinarian (sickly). "

Does that describe Mr. Woodhouse? What a strange word!
"

I think hypochondriac would describe Mr. Woodhouse better. ^o~

Well, it certainly is easier to pronounce, even though they both fit. My daughter will take the ACT in April. I better get her started on JA!

Jeannette wrote: "Well, it certainly is easier to pronounce, even though they both fit. My daughter will take the ACT in April. I better get her started on JA!"

I took the ACT, oh geese 6 years ago, and it's not that hard. I only studied for a month and passed Reading comprehension and English with flying colors. You really don't have to know a lot of big words for it. Good luck to your daughter though! Reading JA can't hurt either. ^o~

Shaun wrote: "I think what is interesting is that Jane was actually okay with Frank flirting with another girl! If I was her, I wouldn't have been so cool with that. "

Yes,I agree, Jane and Emma make a wonderful contrast. Austen shows us so much about Emma when she describes Jane.

I don't think Jane was okay with Frank's behaviour. Here's an extract from Frank's letter to Mrs Weston in Chapter 50:
"And here I can admit, that my manners to Miss W., in being unpleasant to Miss F., were highly blamable. She disapproved them, which ought to have been enough. My plea of concealing the truth she did not think sufficient. She was displeased; I thought unreasonably so; I thought her, on a thousand occasions, unnecessarily scrupulous and cautious: I thought her even cold. But she was always right.... We quarrelled.... While I, to blind the world to our engagement, was behaving one hour with objectionable particularity to another woman.... I was mad enough, however, to resent. I doubted her affection.... when, provoked by such conduct on my side, such shameful, insolent neglect of her, and such apparent devotion to Miss W., as it would have been impossible for any woman of sense to endure, she spoke her resentment in a form of words perfectly intelligible to me. In short, my dear madam, it was a quarrel blameless on her side, abominable on mine."

Jane is so vulnerable; so reliant on Frank's behaving honourably. She doesn't have the security of a formal engagement. If Frank were to abandon her, and if her secret engagement were to be made public, the taint of impropriety would move her marriage prospects from unlikely to dire.