Jane Austen discussion

Did the Isabella-Catherine friendship begin with hidden motive? Would you love to encounter the Thorpes in Bath? What are your conclusions of John and Isabella Thorpe?

No hidden motives! :) Isabella latched on to the one person she was best suited to: her "beloved's" sister. How unfortunate for Catherine to have ever met her.

And what a bully John Thorpe was, cursing and stamping around and spreading rumors. Two wonderful villians for our story.

John and Isabella are wonderfully easy to dislike :-) Isabella is a self-obsessed, shallow schemer, and John is boorish, obsessed with his equipage (doesn't that sound like a double entendre?); as mercenary as Isabella, but less capable of slyness. He's coarse and unpleasant, rude to his younger sisters and even to his mother - in front of outsiders, which makes it even worse.

Isabella serves well as a dramatic foil for Catherine. Catherine's sweetness, and her open, affectionate nature, are set off to great advantage.

Great observations, Shayne. "Mercenary" and "boorish" describe John Thorpe very well indeed. I found that I could actually laugh at John Thorpe a little - I guess that in terms of sheer villainy, he is not in the caliber of Wickham or Willoughby.

Oh, I agree, Badlydone - I laughed at John, especially during his early appearances. The way he went on and on about how good his horse was reminded me *so* much of the way some people two centuries later go on and on about their cars :-)

No, indeed, he's not at all in the calibre of Wickham or Willoughby - although I think that's because he's not clever enough, not because he's more moral. He's so inept that I find myself amused rather than irate at his attempts at making a mercenary match.

John Thorpe is so openly manipulative. He seems the type to just do what he likes with no apologies. Just taking advantage of the fact that Catherine is James' sister, so she will be polite to him through peer pressure.

How did you feel when Catherine was tricked into going riding with the Thorpes and James?

Jeannette wrote: "No hidden motives! :) Isabella latched on to the one person she was best suited to: her "beloved's" sister. How unfortunate for Catherine to have ever met her.

And what a bully John Thorpe was, ..."

But Isabella did admit that she knew who Catherine was at first, did she? That is the way I understood it, which made Isabella even less sincere.

I am torn about Isabella. On the one hand, she is a clearly a selfish user. On the other hand, she is simply doing her best to secure the most financially advantageous marriage she can, her only asset being her looks. They are not rich, her mother is a widow, she is the eldest girl .. what else can an ambitious girl do in her position? So I feel rather bad for when she gets taken advantage of in turn.
John Thorpe is simply odious.

Ready for spoilers??***************

Mayakda, if you are still in the process of reading -- careful because there may be spoilers in this thread. I was about to comment on something that happens in the final chapters, are you there yet?

I was just troubled that Isab. and John had manipulated Catherine to try to secure James. Especially when a female does that to another female, that goes against the Girl Code, as my friends and I used to say.

***********SPOILER alert*********
Particularly when Isabella writes that intolerable letter toward the end of the book. Definitely breaking the Girl Code!

Sarah wrote: "Ready for spoilers??***************

Mayakda, if you are still in the process of reading -- careful because there may be spoilers in this thread. I was about to comment on something that happens i..."

It's ok, I've read it before.
I think Isabella clearly values her husband-hunt above any friendship which I think Austen telegraphed early on when Isabella starts back-biting about a supposed dear friend (Miss Andrews) to Catherine. Catherine is so unused to having any friends that she doesn't pick up on this.

I just find it hard to judge her for that mercenary and opportunistic nature because, well, she's not malicious. She's not out to hurt anyone really, she just wants to grab the brass ring. I think if she had been a man she would have done well in a competitive career, in the navy, perhaps.

Yes, it is difficult to be seen as ambitious when your only goal is making a good marriage. A man could work his way up in the navy or army by aggressive and courageous actions. A woman just got a bad reputation.

Yes, and as we have seen in many of these 19th century stories, women may not have been taught as much about ethics as they were the fine points of the marriage market. And don't you suppose that Bath was filled with girls like this -- it was a packed house at the Assembly Rooms, so it was probable. No wonder Henry fell for Catherine.

Same thing with Elizabeth and Darcy. He liked her because she was impertinent and did not fawn all over him in an effort to be "chosen" as his bride!

Jeannette wrote: "Same thing with Elizabeth and Darcy. He liked her because she was impertinent and did not fawn all over him in an effort to be "chosen" as his bride!"
Not to mention her fine eyes. ;)

Sarah wrote: "No wonder Henry fell for Catherine."

I agree, Sarah. Catherine's sweetness and her open, warm nature must have shone out like a beacon in that temple to the superficial.

I have to say that I do agree with everyone so far and I think that catherine and Isabella are perfect foils for each other. Catherine was a proper young lady, very thoughtful, and genuine. Isabella, was totally a fortune hunter, but maybe she did like all of the attention. I felt sorry for Isabella, since it seemed as if she isn't satisfied with what she has now, but what she could get instead.

What surprised me a bit was how James Morland chose to be friends with John Thorpe. Morland seems to be refined and sensitive though a bit weak. I don't see someone like him interacting with John Thorpe on a consisstent basis without having a better understanding of Thorpe- unless he met Isabella early on and was smitten!

Maybe since the point Isabella has set her sights on James, John had really started sucking up to James. Their friendship might have been more based on that?

What I always wondered about was how did the Thorpe family come to believe that James did or would have money?
Because if Isabella didn't believe that, she would not have wasted her time going after him.

The Morelands did have money, but when the marriage of James and Isabella was agreed, Mr. Moreland offered him a living in a parish but they would have to wait until is was vacant -- was it 2 or 3 years? Isabella wanted to marry and get the money ASAP, so she started looking around quickly for another option.

I see James as Isabella's placeholder - she thinks his prospects are good enough, and his attentions are pleasant. He's probably the best matrimonial prospect who's so far come within her reach. But presented with what looks like a better offer, she's perfectly ready to discard James. We see somewhat similar behaviour from Lucy Steele - in both cases, love doesn't seem to have much to do with it.

Yes, I suppose it was a lot of fun for her to brag to her sisters that she had a beau! And, she had the remote hope that what James got from his parents would be worth it. She was sadly disappointed, as Lucy Steele was.

Jeannette wrote: "Yes, I suppose it was a lot of fun for her to brag to her sisters that she had a beau! And, she had the remote hope that what James got from his parents would be worth it. She was sadly disappoin..."

That reminds me of a question I had about Lucy Steele -- is it ok to go post it in the old S&S folder?

Mayakda wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "Yes, I suppose it was a lot of fun for her to brag to her sisters that she had a beau! And, she had the remote hope that what James got from his parents would be worth it. She w..."

Sure, it's still active, as far as I know.

Sarah, I was under the impression that Isabella believed James' fortune to be much larger than it really was. And that was her reason for persuing him.

Silly John Thorpe may have bragged James' fortune into a large amount -- I am not clear on this. I am reading in the final chapter when all is revealed about how Gen. Tilney became deceived about Catherine's fortune. It would have been pointless for Thorpe to build up James' fortune to his own sister, but he may have.

Shayne wrote: "John and Isabella are wonderfully easy to dislike :-) Isabella is a self-obsessed, shallow schemer, and John is boorish, obsessed with his equipage (doesn't that sound like a double entendre?); as ..."

lol! love double entendres!

I can't believe the Thrope family! They are totally a waste of space - all of them. Thick and empty in the head. The mother would have bored me to tears. I think I would have slapped John in the face for his rudeness. I would have dropped Isabella on her butt. I really don't like silly scheming girls who flirt and carry on like that. I avoid them more than any other kind of person.

That's something I don't get. I hinted more than bluntly said it in another discussion. How could Catherine have the right instinct about others and be so wrong about the Thropes? Was that luck? Was it foolish wishful thinking? She knew General Tilney was a weird-o and rotten husband and father. She knew that his marriage was one-sided. She knew Captain Tilney had somekind of design on her friend. She knew that Mr Thrope was not someone to get close to. She knew that Mr Allen was a good confident. She knew Henry and his sister would be the bestest friends she could ever have in Bath. But she couldn't see through Isabella's flakery for a king's ransom?!?!
For me, this lapse in judgment on Catherine's part makes me really ponder. Is Catherine really that naive or was Isabella that good of a villian? She played everyone, but then bite it in the worst way with Captain Tilney. It's not secret. I love that bit.

I felt that when Catherine was in Bath, she really was starved for company. Mrs. Allen was nice to her, but face it, she was more interested in her outfits! I think that Catherine was looking for excitement (being the heroine) and that she did find it with Isabella. I think that Catherine was able to see a little bit through Isabella's lies, but not soon enough.

Shaun wrote: "I felt that when Catherine was in Bath, she really was starved for company. Mrs. Allen was nice to her, but face it, she was more interested in her outfits! I think that Catherine was looking for..."

I think Catherine idolized Isabella at first. Older and more sophisticated yet being so nice to her. And she comes from a family where they take people at face value. It's quite a realistic bit of teen hero worship.

I agree! I would definitely chalk it up to being in an unknown place and becoming friends with the people that you first meet there!

I believe the Isabella-Catherine friendship began with a hidden motive. Isabella probably realized before Catherine did that Catherine was James' sister and latched onto her to please James. After all, Isabella and the Thorpes were fortune hunters and they believed the Morlands to be wealthy.

I find the Thorpes to be very odious. In the them Jane Austen created the perfect characters we love to hate. I find John Thorpe to be frightening in his treatment of Catherine: when he forces Catherine into his carriage for a ride and lies to her friends so that she can't see them. All in all the Thorpes caused a lot of damage, from using Catherine and James to spreading rumors to General Tilney.