The awsome group discussion

this is pretty fucked up

"Honour killings." That is such bullshit. It's horrible to be a woman in some parts of the world. I mean, in the United States we worry about things like "the glass ceiling," but in certain countries, women can be killed for something we'd consider normal (speaking to someone of the opposite sex who may have different beliefs). I'm not even going to talk about female circumcision.

Does anyone have recommendations for other books for people who choose to lead a childfree life? I stumbled onto this title while searching on the web for some much-needed insight (literally, had typed "women who don't want children" as my Google search). Not surprisingly, none of my local bookstores carried it in stock (even though I live in a major metropolitan area), so I had to back-order it online. It's not exactly a popular topic, so I've been having trouble finding other guidance on this issue. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Good point Booby. I don't mean to pick on religion (sort of), but it does seem that God isn't much of a fan of our fair gender.

So true. Certain gods are less of fans than others.

do you like the picture??

God (in this definition thereof) isn't much of a fan of rationality or compassion either.

On a related note, I have a gruesome, bloody marionette I got in Prague of a (real-life Medieval) nun who was murdered by her father with a sword through the throat for breaking her celibacy vows. The more things change, the more they sometimes stay the same.

This isn't an anti-religion post. It's an anti-stupidity post. There is a difference.

I don't know David. I think, speaking specifically about the article I posted, It would be one thing if this Dad had taken his own personal and fucked up interpretation of the laws of his religion and applied them--but he has the support of his community, and his government. And his wife, who is understandably mortified, has been shunned by her own friends and family. Are ALL of these people just stupid? Is their religion to blame? What do you think is going on here?

I think it's interesting how we (our culture/their culture) view each other. I mean, we read about this man, and are horrified at what he is done. He likely looks at our culture and our religion(s) and is as horrified as we are. What do we do with that? Live and let live? It's awfully hard to stand by and do nothing, but is it the "right" thing to do?

yep it's cool have you ever ridden on a roller coaster???

I have! I LOVE the picture too!!

oh yeah, we had a regular ole smack down on Axis on this one. Powerful stuff.

Are you implying that the chief motive behind domestic violence in the West is to enforce morality that the abuser believes stands between him and the disintegration of social order?

thanks!!! that's actually me riding in it and my profile pic is me getting ready to go.

Yes, but the original point of this thread was to point out that in the case in Pakistan the man was cheered on by his community, whereas in this culture domestic violence is by and large not countenanced anymore. So I think it's okay to get somewhat complacent about our own culture. Domestic violence is a problem here. Over there it seems like a way of life.

Oops, my mistake.

I refuse to try to understand this man's mindset. What he did was wrong, and I think all his justification is posturing because at heart, he knows it. Oh, yes, he does. And so does every man that has taken his side. They just aren't admitting it.
Vile, horrible human nature. I feel sick.

That father is horribly tragically appallingly wrong but he's hardly alone in being willing to turn violence against his own family in order to enforce a morality that he believes stands between him and the disintegration of social order.

Donna- this is my whole problem--he's not just enforcing a morality that he himself believes in. It's a morality endorsed by his religion and sponsored by his government. And, apparently, one that everyone in his greater community but the poor girl and her mother ascribes to too.
I also don't think it's accurate to compare this sort of behavior with domestic abuse. Whether or not the state (U.S) recognized it as wrong soon enough is one thing, but (as far as I know) it doesn't occur now (or in the past) out of a sense of obligation to God. It's more of a power trip.
Furthermore, Michelle made really good points in her first response. Thankfully, although it seemed like it might swing the other way for awhile there, we are not a theocracy, or a government that legitimizes superstition. So we don't have this kind of shit to deal with over here.
For me this is a prime example of why government and religion should not mix. This guy's crime should've been treated as such in the eyes of the law. And rather than being proud of himself for restoring his family's honor, he should be taking it up his poky in The Poky.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

"If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, and give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid, then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate. And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her; and, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him; and they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel, then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."

Certain (american christian) cultures do continue to support physical punishment of children. Spare the rod, spoil the child; what that child needs is a good whuppin'.

Donna, I like your analogy with domestic violence. There have been times in this culture's history that violence against one's wife was acceptable under certain circumstances.

Cultural support of violence, including violence against women and children, is not limited to Islam. It's abhorrent wherever it happens, whether it's rape during wartime or honor killings or isolation and child-bride arranged marriages. But it's not just "them, those horrible people way over there."

Interestingly, the original reason for Muslim women wearing veils was to allow them to safely participate in business. Muhammed's first wife, Khadija, was the first Muslim woman to wear the veil, when she took over her father's business. She is considered the first convert to Islam when she married Muhammed (but, I believe, she'd been wearing the veil before then). The use of hijab as another way of isolating women and girls is not strictly a religious mandate, but a cultural one.

All religions have been interpreted, and re-interpreted, and re-re-interpreted, through the lens of culture, and what is laid at the feet of 'religion' often has little to do with scripture, which is generally, at best, contradictory about the use of violence or how women and girls should be treated.

Am I angry about how women and girls are treated in many places in the Middle East? Hell, yeah. Do I think that it's because Islam is an evil religion? No. The Qu'ran is no more disrespectful of women and no more promoting of violence than the bible. Islam itself is not the problem.

Numbers and everything! Donna, that post is truly great. And thank you for being so much more eloquent than I in discussing the difference between, and interplay between, religion and culture.

I think the notion of progress is an important point. I have spent my lifetime (so far) battling cultural forces which have told me since birth that I am less than because I am a girl/woman. Misogyny is alive and well and among us here in the US. But my battle is nothing in comparison to what the women of my mother's generation struggled against (for a refresher course just watch the first season of 'Mad Men'). And her battle was made easier by the progress made by the generations of women and their allies that came before.

The statistics and information Donna listed above are interesting and something I am going to have to investigate further it would seem. I have come across conflicting information about the Islamic world, how much of the culture is a result of the religion, and how much is a result of tribalism which is still at play there. It's an interesting question, and one which is the subject of PhD theses I would imagine.

But one thing is painfully clear: the Islamic world is aeons behind us in terms of women's rights, misogyny, and other important issues.

I have made a decision for myself. I have come to not care where I see misogyny and injustice. I don't care if it's across the world or across the street, I'm going to call bullshit on it. I do not buy into cultural relativism. I don't care what your culture says, it's not okay to remove part of a woman's genitalia as some kind of twisted religious observance. That's abuse. It's not okay to sexually molest children. That's abuse. And beating a woman to death in any country of the world is wrong.

It's an interesting question what the roots of domestic violence are and whether they are the same as the roots of "honor killings'. I would not automatically assume that they are one and the same, just because they are (almost exclusively) perpetrated by men against women. Again, these are the subject of PhD theses and summing it up in the space of a Goodreads post seems like a ridiculous task.

It annoys me that every time someone calls bullshit on something outrageous that happens in another country or another culture that people feel compelled to point to something in our own culture that is also bad. As if to say that we don't have a right to be outraged by something outside our own borders, just because we are an imperfect nation ourselves. I find the practice to be a distraction, a constant rehashing of the same arguments. I claim the right to call bullshit on anything and anyone at any time. Regardless of my own nationality. Regardless of my gender or ethnicity or sexual preference or religion or lack thereof or personal history. It's an important component of my humanity. It's called discernment. Let's celebrate it.

I hate the argument that "something is bad, true--but this something over here is bad too!" Ok. So what? Does that make this specific something less bad?
The article I attached wasn't about domestic violence. Why can't I criticize one repugnant act w/o having to criticize every single other one?
It seems so many people in this country are so hyper-sensitive about the war in Iraq and any and all falsehoods and stereotypes associated with that war and that region that you can't say anything negative about the Middle East w/o someone shouting "Ummm. Oh Yeah? Well, what about rights for women in the U.S?"
YES! You're right! It still sucks to be a woman in this country! Are you happy now?
My main issue with that story has less to do with the fact that it's Islam, and more to do with the fact that religion in general is touted as the one true way to moral rectitude. And so many people argue that without it we are lost to our own deviant devices. When clearly, many immoral and disgusting acts are committed in the name of religion. Yes, all of them! Lisa's excerpt from Deuteronomy is another example of the kind of fucked up, backward thinking that religion promotes.

(Lisa,I don't understand then how you say scripture is often contradictory to how people interpret it, considering the passage that you quoted seems pretty pro-violence/anti-woman).

Finally, Donna, the article I linked mentions that it is in fact The Police, a government authority as far as I know, who have backed up this asshole's right to kill his own daughter.

I don't think it sucks to be a woman in this country. I think comparing the treatment of women here with the treatment of women in the Middle East is ludicrous. When I hear stories like the one Shelly posted, or read books like A Thousand Splendid Suns it makes me so thankful to be an American.

The Frenchman who first said, "There but for the grace of God go I" was actually witnessing a fellow French aristocrat going to the guillotine. Honor killings really is a problem of those other people over there in that part of the world. It really, really is. We can't let our vigilance turn into paranoia where we lose perspective.

Organized religion scares the crap out of me Donna. And you're right, it is best to try and understand your enemy. Unfortunately, I wouldn't even know where to start in trying to understand someone who believes that God would prefer they murder their own daughter before they'd have her talk to a member of the opposite sex--a foreigner no less.

As to the Iraqi police not punishing this man for his actions, this is from The Independent:

"Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious laws. The father has very good contacts inside the Basra government and it wasn't hard for him to be released and what he did to be forgotten."

Donna aren't you forgetting that whole Soviet invasion thing?

good point Donna. I mean, the last thing I want to do is try and empathize with this douchebag, but cowardice is a pretty compelling explanation for his actions.

fear of community, fear of god's retribution. it sucks b/c fear sucks, and we don't want to live in fear. but people with this guy's mindset scare the fuck out of me.

You mean the Soviet invasion the US armed the Taliban to fight, allowing the Taliban to come to power? That Soviet invasion?

I, too, am simply arguing about the "those people are bad, and we are morally superior" screens it is easy to hide behind. I am not ready nor willing to condemn an entire culture or an entire religion. (Except maybe that weirdo Mormon offshoot.) I will condemn violence against women and children. I will try to understand how it is (and is not) related to culture or religion. But by condemning an entire region of the world (there are, by the way, Muslims in many other places that are not in the Middle East), by saying it is a THEM problem, not something we can understand, we're not learning anything about how to intervene, nor are we reflecting on what we can do to promote change in our own culture.

Yes, Lisa that was the invasion I was referring to. And we don't solve THEM problems by saying it's also an US problem, because then we misdirect our energies, and lose the very thing that helps us get a handle on problems in the first place: perspective or as Charissa put it, discernment.

BTW, this post isn't directed at your post per se, but the whole thrust of the thread.

Until you understand the motivation for something, you can't hope to successfully intervene. And blaming religion or saying "that's just the way that part of the world is" doesn't help in any way to understand the motivation. Looking at things that are more familiar in our own culture and how they may operate similarly, however, gives us an opportunity to find places to intervene.

As far as I'm concerned, saying it's also an US problem is a remedy for saying it's a totally foreign THEM problem, not the remedy for the problem itself.

Well, this was very sad and disturbing. Of course, it is also taken as license to make out that everyone who believes in God is "scarey", which I find tiresome. I think that there are many Muslims who are just as horrified at this type of practice as are many Christians, Budhists, Hindus etc... Call God by whatever name you like, all people of faith are not Monsters. The Deuteronomy quote was a nice touch, little jab at the Christians eh? So, by that logic, Christians would not longer eat pork, shell fish, allow blood transfusions, women would be "unclean" during their period and be forced into seclusion, undertakers would never be able to be touched...they'd be unclean all the time for touching a dead body, the sect of Mormons who like to marry lots of wives should be clapped on the back and told "well done you!" and stonings would be happening a LOT more frequently for many, many more things that promiscuity! Sure, there are fanatics in any religion, but we're not all like that. Sweeping generalizations about race, sexual orientation or gender would be jumped on in a second around here. So, guess what I have to say about your sweeping generalizations regarding religion, "GROW UP! And, get off your 'high horse', you're not better than me because you're a 'non-believer'! You're not smarter, cleverer or cooler. You may be all of those things for other reasons...but not just because I choose to believe that there is in fact a 'higher power', something bigger than myself!"

Amy-

Choosing to believe in a higher power, or something bigger than yourself, is miles away from believing things like Eve was created from one of Adam's ribs, and the like.
In your post you mention how if Christians took the bible literally they wouldn't eat pork, shell fish, allow blood transfusions, etc. etc.
What many believers "believe" nowadays has less to do with a literal translation of scripture, and more to do with the general idea of their particular religion's holy text: love your neighbor, don't judge, don't be tied down to earthly possessions, etc. etc.
These things are all well and good. It's these other ideas, like if your daughter does not wed a virgin she should be stoned or stabbed to death, that really give religion and the people who take every single word their religion professes as Truth, a bad name.
Whatever passage in the Quran, or tenant of Islam inspired that guy--no, convinced that guy, that he needed to murder his own daughter for the sake of his family's honor is archaic, backwards, and retarded. I am smarter, cleverer, and, incidentally, cooler than that dude.

A dear friend of mine is Muslim and he would defend to his death the lives of his wife and daughters.

The problem is not religion as a whole, it is the fanatics. That was difficult for me to say as I have some bitterness toward religion, but just as "religion" has people like the guy in the story, religion has people who do kind, compassionate things as well.

As to an earlier statement about being a woman sucking... it can suck at times but I'm sure glad I am a woman here in the USA. (ahh, a moment of patriotism!)

excellent thread, btw

" A dear friend of mine is Muslim and he would defend to his death the lives of his wife and daughters.

This being my point BRMB, thank you! It's sad, but this guys is no different than many fanatics in ANY "religion", including Atheism.

Amy, great post. I'm really glad you said it.

I love when non-Christians quote the Old Testament. The thing they forget is that Jesus changed all that with His death and resurrection. Before Jesus the penalty for sin was death. Jesus' sacrifice paid the price for the rest of us and made those stoning laws, etc. obsolete.

To me, the problem with fanatacism is when people start worshiping their religion, not their God. It's not about the rules and regulations of man, it's about the relationship I have with God.

Atheism is not a religion. There is no doctrine. There is no messiah. There is no heaven. It's not a belief system. There is no god to kill in the name of.

Sarah, is it all right for Jews to quote the Old Testament, you know being non-Christian and all?

Yes, as Jews believe that there is a Messiah who will come and do exactly the same thing Jesus did (atone for the sins of man). They just don't believe Jesus was the guy.

What coaster is it?

There are still fanatics in the name of Atheism!

I concur, Amelia... I wanted to join a group of "freethinkers" (being atheist myself on a bad day) and those freethinkers are hard to come by where I live... 90% of the group was pissed off atheists. I mean pissed off!! Anything "Christian" was evil... I was very disappointed. I was hoping for a more tolerant, thoughtful group.

needless to say, i left. sad as I enjoyed the discussions on Darwin, global economy, politics...

freaks and fantatics are out there in every single group. there's no escape!

But what are these fanatics doing? Writing books. Spreading their ideas through persuasion, not violence. Certainly not carrying out honor killings.

Are you saying no atheist has ever killed a Christian? You think no one's murdered a Muslim? I don't think that's the case. I'm not saying the Christian faith's hands are clean, either (um, Crusades anyone?) but there are rotten apples in every bunch.

Saying this man's actions are indicative of every faith that believes in God is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists. It isn't the belief in God that makes the person a madman; otherwise, every person who ever professed a faith would be killing.

The bottom line is, that guy, and the others like him, are mentored up.

No, I'm not saying never. I was responding to Amelia's claim that there are still fanatics in the name of atheism. I assumed she was referring to the Hitchens Dawkins crowd. They're fanatics, but their fanaticism is peaceful.

It's actually at fun plex

fun plex where?

I was waiting for someone to bring up the Crusades, though I was surprised of everyone posting it was Sarah. Can I just say that the Crusades was no more about Christianity than Vietnam was about Democracy or the first Gulf War was about Human Rights...Just sayin.

Dave dear, I wasn't talking specifics...just that there are fanatical Athiests as well as every other group. You can call it "religion" or whatever. I don't care what face you put on it. If there is a group out there, a distinction made to separate them, there will be those that take it too far, that close their minds to any other point of view or thought or way of being.

BMRB, I'm with you! Though I am a "Christian" in as much as I have that faith in me, that personal relationship just with me and God, I don't attend "Church" for that very reason. People who think that they have all of the answers make me extremely uncomfortable, upset, angry, disappointed and many other unpleasant things. People who feel the need to tell me or anyone what you can and can't do based on their interpretation of a multi-thousand year old book of text...it's insane and so extremely pompas. And yet, it makes me just as crazy when people act like I'm some kind of moron, or lunatic, or worse associate me with morons and lunatics just because those people also claim to have a faith. I have nothing but respect for those who don't choose to have a faith. I have no respect for people who cannot respect me simply because I do choose to.

But what are these fanatic atheists doing that makes them fanatical? Saying there are fanatics in every group paints every group the same color. Fanatic atheists at this point in history are not causing the world's problems. At least I don't think they are.
And I don't judge the individuals based on whether they are in the Atheist group or the Christian group or the Muslim group, but it's okay to judge the ideology of the groups themselves, based on the actions of the people who act in the name of that ideology. I have nothing but respect for you as an individual, faith or no faith. If every Christian were like you, I would consider joining. Although if they had me, maybe it wouldn't be worth joining (hat tip to Groucho Marx.)

You can call it "religion" or whatever.

Ok. This is getting frustrating. Yes, Amy, there are fanatical Atheists out there. But they are not members of a religion. There is no atheist doctrine. There is no One who is greater than all others whom Atheists worship.

What you call them are Atheists.

The problem, Dave, is that you ARE judging the whole group by the actions of monsters like the man in the article. The overwhelming majority of people of faith believe in peace, compassion, love, and mercy. We just don't make the news. Peace, compassion, love, and mercy make for boring headlines. So you hear about the maybe 1% who do crazy things and judge the rest of religiondom for it. Son of Sam murdered because his dog told him to. So should we believe all dog owners to be capable of murder? It really isn't any different. An insane person will take a reasonable thing and do insane things with it.