That Hideous Strength discussion

Perhaps I was losing sight of the storyline, but I did not completely understand the ending. That's saying something because I am a dedicated Lewis fan.
Would anyone like to discuss?

I think it actually hearkens back to something The Belbury people said at one point. It's not the general population they're worried about, but of individuals. Both sides are most concerned about individuals. We see that as Lewis describes the end of the bad guys life, Frost in particular. They are all still given a choice to see the light, to come back to God. I don't think any of them did however.

The plot is of the battle between Britain and Lorges. The story however, is about Mark and Jane, their new, purer love for each other, and their conversion towards God. It's what really matters to Lewis, so he has to end with it.

I can see what your saying Elizabeth about the individual focus. However, I feel that there is a huge emphasis on the mythology aspects of the different angels coming nearer to Earth and it seems like a jump compared to the whole trilogy. To me it felt like he had used this last book not as a completion of a trilogy but a discussion on religion in general and the depravity of man. The ending, as you said, is the revelation of how wonderful and dynamic religion can affect us. But, I don't think it fits well with the trilogy overall and it does seem to come out of nowhere almost.

I'm listening to this book, now for the who knows how many times. Since I'm just past Jane's picnic with the Denniston's, the "Ending" is a ways off, so my comments will be in a general sense. I suppose the "Ending" was open to Lewis to express an aspect of life for Jane and Mark that really was not a certainty until Belbury was smashed. The redeemed love they could know was latent and, for them, would not be known until they saw their life together as what may have been lost to them forever, now become a gift.

Adam and Eve, the garden, a "new earth"...it's all very symbolic. It's very Lewis!

Clarice wrote: "Adam and Eve, the garden, a "new earth"...it's all very symbolic. It's very Lewis!"

Clarice, your mention of Adam and Eve in this context recalled to my mind that there was a prophesy concerning Eve's offspring, and similarly there is a prophesy for Mark and Jane, that their child would be instrumental in the saving of Logres. Chapter 13 "They Have Pulled Down Deep Heaven on Their Heads" finds Ransom and Merlin on the subject of Jane, to which Merlin says "it was the purpose of God that she and her lord should between them have begotten a child by whom the enemies should have been put out of Logres for a thousand years". Ransom's reply bears confidence as he concludes "The child may yet be born". This subject is met with renewed expectation in Chapter 17 "Venus at St. Anne's" where Mr. Dimble reveals Ransom as the 79th Pendragon and concludes "tomorrow we shall know, or tonight, who is to be the 80th".
Would it be Mark and Jane's child? So they would see in their lifetime the promise of the saving of Logres. Was Lewis writing this in mind of Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

Yes, absolutely. Well, I think the book itself is supposed to be kind of "prophetic" in describing what happens when Men Without Chests (Abolition of Man) take over. It's apocalyptic in some sense; it's a microcosm of what would happen to the world on a grand scale. The appearance of Malacandra and Perelandra (Mars and Venus) at the end is also symbolic of a restoration of harmony...of Eden. This book taken "literally" will be disappointing, I think, but watching out for all the symbolism, the deeper meanings of the text, will offer a deep satisfaction at the conclusion--a restoration of Eden, the great longing of the human soul.

Robert wrote: "I can see what your saying Elizabeth about the individual focus. However, I feel that there is a huge emphasis on the mythology aspects of the different angels coming nearer to Earth and it seems ..."

Perelandra is deeply "religious"...not sure how similar themes in That Hideous Strength come out of nowhere, then.

The "ending" leaves many unknowns, but I wish Professor Lewis would have written a sequel, particularly revealing the 80th Pendragon, the new life of Mark and Jane, and what role they played in the coming millenial age of Logres.
The Pendragon rules in the spirit of those who, before him, served the Living God, namely, Enoch, Elias and Moses. "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven". The "ending" leaves us the promise that Logres would see the "Shalom" of the Kingdom, even in the shadow of Sulva.
It had been the ill-conceived conclusion of the Macrobes, who were guiding the principles of Belbury, that Telus was shielded from interplanetary intervention by the shadow of Sulva. It was that very power of the Eldila that flooded St. Anne's and imbued Merlinus for the "covert" disruption of the threatening "Tower of Babel" crowd.

I found the shag-craziness of the final chapter a bit embarrassing.

Concerning the sex, I can make this comment: I recently read Brave New World, where sex had become a tool for causing isolation among the characters- no lasting deep commitments, no family, no children. The people of N.I.C.E saw it that way as well- among those who even believed in sexual activity of any sort. The scientists were anti-body, anti-emotion, anti-sex, and anti-nature. So on the side of the good guys, sex would be a natural, fertile, marital event that brought couples together and deepened their humanity.
And yes, sometimes that last chapter has embarrassed me, as well.
About the ending in general: this is just my feeling about it, but the entire book sort of feels like a Last Days sort of story contrasted with the Garden of Eden narrative found on Perelandra. So in Perelandra is the beginning of Genesis, in a way, and That Hideous Strength is, say, part of Revelation.
That might be obvious, and if it is, so sorry. I just found it kind of a Narnia written for adults. Narnia has a creation story as well as a last battle story. And many who gain redemption.

Lora wrote: "Concerning the sex, I can make this comment: I recently read Brave New World, where sex had become a tool for causing isolation among the characters- no lasting deep commitments, no family, no chil..."

Lora, I loved the comparison to Brave New World, my favorite of the dystopian novels! An the comparison to Narnia is also very apt.

And it seemed to me that Lewis in this novel really explored, "how do we know what is good?" The N.I.C.E. crowd basically denied that anyone could know. After all, it's all just chemicals in the brain. But if we humans don't choose to do the things we enjoy (in an appropriate way), we will become soulless automatons headed for destruction.

I sometimes find myself in the same place - feeling like I'm dying inside and don't care where I'm headed. I find at times like that it helps to do something I enjoy, to remind myself that life is well worth it.

Amen, Dan. And I add a caution here: my child in high school has a psychology class and in the lesson it took her to a separate link- to the TV show Nova. I kid you not: their lead scientist was arguing very clearly that we are neurons firing and only neurons firing. We have no thought, decision, or free will. I quote: "Free will does not exist."
N.I.C.E. has nothing on our nationalized educational system.

Have to correct myself. "This Perfect Day" is my favorite dystopian novel. However I understood your reference. Sometimes I'm convinced Lewis was a prophet.

Lora wrote: "I kid you not: their lead scientist was arguing very clearly that we are neurons firing and only neurons firing. We have no thought, decision, or free will. I quote: "Free will does not exist"..."

I saw that on TV. Revolutionary stuff. The scientists were able to use a brain scanner predict which arm a subject would raise before the subjects even knew themselves. The subjects' brains started firing before they reported coming to a decision. The decision to raise one arm or the other was made without the subjects' conscious input.

Now, this finding contradicts Lewis's Anglican theology, but AFAICT it's perfectly in line with the Calvinist doctrine of predestination. "To his glory, God determined before all creation those who would obtain eternal life, and those who would receive eternal death."

God is omniscient. The scientists could predict which arm an experimental subject would raise a few fractions of a second before they decided to raise it. God knew which arm the experimental subject would raise "before all creation". If an action was determined before the universe existed, it could hardly be the result of a conscious decision.

Very interesting! I would add, coming from myself and some of my experience, that the scientists could possibly predict which arm would raise before the subjects themselves knew *on recognizable levels*. Having known so many women who did not even know they were pregnant, it doesn't surprise me that a person might be the last one to know what their own arm is doing. It sounds facetious, but I kid you not. I've also had the personal experience of knowing things about my health that the doctors said I could not have felt or known. There may be far more variables than science so far can even be aware of.

As for free will, I did not know about this understanding of predestination. No, I have to say, I must have heard of it before but it didn't sink in. In the teachings I have had, it goes like this: God knows us so well that he knows what we're going to do before we do it. He hasn't taken away our choice, he simply knows us so much more than we can ever conceive. I've been able to predict huge amounts of my kids' behaviors and this is a shadow of what the Lord can do. In the meantime, I also believe that we are chosen for specific times and places and tasks in this life- chosen and prepared. In my religion we consider this part of a test, or trial: to choose through faith to do what has already been asked of us.
We can't give our time, our car, our children to God, because everything is already his. But we can give our obedience. This takes a sense of will.
I'm glad to know this belief- it helps me understand others.
Your devotion is admirable and inspiring. That sort of thing takes courage and I support you!

If you like books that discuss predestination then check out "The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner" by James Hogg.

The fact that we find the ending strange speaks volumes about what the real thing presented here as N.I.C.E. have done to our brains, how has our idea of the world transformed.