THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

I assume you folks are so quiet lately because you're so emersed in your reading. I'm currently finishing up Mussolini and His Generals, which ends at the point Italy entered WWII. It's chock full of information, but you'd have to be a pretty serious reader to work your way through it. I picked it up primarily as I had little real background on the subject.

Currently reading The Marshall Plan by Greg Behrman - not strictly WWII but inextricably linked thereto. Hadn't realised the connection with the history of European integration.

regards to all

Ian

I'm about 1/3 into "Army at Dawn". I'd heard good things and so far these good reviews have been justified.

Just a bit ago, I finished "The Oster Conspiracy of 1938". It's a good summary of the run-up to the Munich Conference and the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. I had heard that there was a coup against Hitler planned for 1938, but I didn't know just how close they came to pulling the trigger. It opens with the question of when was the last (reasonable) point at which the European War could have been prevented...and makes a good case for Oster's conspirators being able to pull it off.

I think Atkinson's two works are among the finest ever written on the US army. You'd be hard put to find a better work on either the North African or the Italian campaign.

I'm now into Franco and Hitler.

Day of Battle is on my book-shelf for after I finish Army at Dawn. I like to intersperse my non-fiction with fiction, so Kim Stanley Robinson's "Science in the Capitol" series is going between the Atkinson books (I know, not WWII, but what the heck).

On an unrelated note, has anyone seen the new Indy movie? How do you think skipping over WWII affected Lucas and Spielberg's pulp universe? Would you be interested in seeing a film version of Indy's WWII OSS adventures?

Well, I'd certainly be interested in seeing Indy in the OSS, however, I think they set it later as Harrison Ford is getting a bit too long in the tooth to pretend he's only a couple years older than he was in Indy 3.

I do read other things as well besides WW2 books. At the moment, I've got one on the Civil War and a recent book on the naval battle of Lepanto, when the West crushed the battle fleet of the Ottoman Sultan. And, every now and then, I read some fiction, too.

Trafalgar: The Biography of a Battle by Roy Adkins... little description, other than the title required, I think.

Superb book.

This military book isn't WWII, but I would recommend it.

Its called: Baptism Of Fire by Frank Collins.

Its a true story about a guy who served with the SAS and later as a bodyguard. Following this he turned to religion and became a priest. The story I found to be very gripping as it unfolded and very different from other books I have read along these lines..

Sadly, it doesn't tell you this in the book, but Frank Collins took his own life some years after he wrote this. It was recommended to me by a former Royal Marine/SAS sniper whom I know, who actually served with Frank.

Best Regards

Steve

Well, at the moment I'm reading The Coldest Winter, which isn't WW2 either. But, it also is a pretty good book so far.

Sigh, my copy of "Army at Dawn" has gone missing. I blame the cat.

In the interim, I bought and read "My Tank Is Fight!" It is written very tongue-in-cheek by a guy from the something-awful website. So it isn't serious history, but it does give some basic background, statistics, and hypothetical deployments for a bunch of the absurd 'wonder-weapons' that were proposed, designed, and in some cases built during WWII.

I assume you-all have heard of the German Maus super-heavy tank and the HMS Habbakuk iceberg/aircraft carrier. I hadn't heard about the Seeteufel amphibious minisub or the Sibervogel two-stage atmosphere-skipping spaceplane.

It's a quick read and I'd suggest drier technical research if you want something you can cite without being laughed at. But it's also fun as hell, especially when you get to the 10 meter tall self-propelled 800 mm cannon.

I'm working my way through a stack of books on fighter planes and air warfare in WW2 - pilot's guides for the F4U Corsair, P47 Thunderbolt, and P38 Lightning, and books on wargaming the same topic, on the computer and otherwise, like Mike Spick's "Air Battles in Miniature". Kind of odd because I was in the service for 20 years and was a grunt a lot of that time but never a pilot. I also just got Spick's "Aces of the Reich".

To get back onto the ground, I'm starting "Brothers in Battle, Best of Friends", by and about two of the soldiers from the Band of Brothers company, William "Wild Bill" Guarnere and Edward "Babe" Heffron.

Derek Hart's novel, For Love and Honor Bound. VERY captivating read! His book Tidal Trap is next...but hey..first things first!

George, that title brings back memories. I recall service in the Artic during my service in the Royal Marines in the 1980's. The coldest temperature I experienced was minus 46°C and with the windchill it went down to minus 73°C.

Now that is cold isn't it. BBbbbbrrrrrr.

Cheers

Steven Preece
Author

Steven,

Cold, indeed. You'll forgive me if I don't envy you the experience.

George

I'm re-reading The Wars by Timothy Findlay. I read it the first time when I was 15 and didn't care for it much. I've read a number of Findlay's novels and short stories in the years since and liked most (but not all!) of them. I think at 15 I just wasn't ready for this kind of material.

George, yes it was indeed an experience. After my last winter tour, I decided I would never allow myself to be cold again. At least, not that cold.

All the very "WARMEST" of wishes

Steven Preece
Author

oddly enough, I'm on my way to Korea soon. I hope that Global Warming will take a bit of the chill off, plus I don't intend to wander into the mountains of North Korea.

I'm reading Max Hastings's "Retribution". I like the British perspective of the book and I realize that I knew a lot less about the last year of the war in the Pacific than I thought.

Just finished "The Forgotten 500" about the rescue of over 500 Allied airmen from inside Nazi-occupied Yugoslavia. Think I found out about the book through one of the discussion threads in this group. Very interesting read. I put the book on the group bookshelf in case any of you are interested.

Just finished The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II. Stumbled across this book when looking through recent reviews here on Goodreads, had not known anything about this horrible series of events. Very shocking, and sad that Japan has still not fessed up...

I think the main difference between the atrocities of the Nazis and those of the Japanese is that the Nazis were more organized and better documented, but no more vicious and barbaric. After having spent about a year in Japan, my experience of the culture was that a person's worth is based strictly on social status; if a person is poor or otherwise low-status, he or she gets treated like dirt. That famous courtesy is reserved for kissing butt, basically.

Beyond that, it's one of the most xenophobic and chauvinistic cultures that has ever existed. In the eyes of a lot of people there even now, the Japanese people and culture are superior to the rest of the world and entitled to take anything they want if they can get away with it - worse than nearly any of our own homegrown American chauvinists, although the current administration and its supporters and advocates of empire and torture come close.

So I will be surprised if they ever acknowledge the evil they did in World War II. Too many of them can't conceive of ever owing an apology to anyone who isn't Japanese.

War Time by Milovan Djilas is a wonderfully translated book that details the ethnic warfare going on inside Yugoslavisa during WWII while partisans fought against monarchists and both fought the Nazi occupation.

I just added War Time to my list of books to get - thanks, Donald! Sounds fascinating.

I'm currently reading Italy's Sorrow by James Holland, as it is giving me an idea of the conditions my grandfather would have faced in the 1st Bn Hertfordshire Regiment (C company).

I'm currently reading A Bridge Too Far by Cornelius Ryan. Enjoyed the movie very much and I'm sure the book is even more excellent!

Too bad I do not have a copy of The Last Battle, also by the same author.

A Bridge Too Far is a wonderfully detailed story... However, it is always best to look at other sources for a more detailed viewpoint. I have read several books upon this particular battle and must say that Ryan does perpetuate some of the myths of the conflict...namely regarding the RAF reconnaisance, the poor radio coverage, the Recce Squadron gliders etc etc.

If you are interested you can look at my reading list to identify other books.

I wish you every success with your reading.... the movie was good - one of my all-time favourite war movies.

At present I am re-reading Pegasus Bridge and D-Day by Stephen Ambrose and Overlord by Max Hastings. Myself and a few friends are going over to Normandy for the Rememberance weekend and it's always useful to brush up on facts before you go.

I'm currently in the middle of "In At The Death" which looks to be the last in a very long line of Harry Turtledove alternate histories starting with a point of departure in the American Civil War.

This last book has us up to 1944 with the Confederate States (allied with Britain, France, and Russia) being beaten down by the USA (allied with Imperial Germany).

It's Harry Turtledove, so it's not deathless prose, but I find myself enjoying the counter-factuals.

Any other alt-history fans out there?

I am almost complete with Guy Sajer "Forgotten Soldier". Book is said to be a hoax, but it seems realistic to me. A movie may be coming out in the future. It's 560 pages, and hard to put down. I would recommend it to anyone interested in the eastern front.

'Forgotten Soldier' is a classic - it was one of the books many of my peers and I were reading decades ago when I was on active duty. This is the first time I'd heard that anyone was calling it a hoax. There isn't anything in the book, as far as I know, that conflicts with known history; why would someone think it was not legitimate?

Where did you hear that it was a hoax?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forg...

Start with this wikipedia article. I just finished the book last night. The book seemed truthful to me. Seems to be a problem with some locations he was at and controversy with a patch on his sleeve. I was in the Marines just 11 years ago and I can't remember how many inches above my left pocket my marksmanship badge goes. Or was it my right??

After reading the wikipedia article, I'd say the arguments for authenticity, i.e. the very obscure details that have been confirmed and the fact that a contemporary of the author has vouched for him, heavily outweigh the quibbles against it, which apparently consist of minor errors. As David (Semper Fi!) notes, memory is patchy and fallible. That sort of error is quite common in memoirs - next time you're at a family get-together, ask folks to tell some stories about shared childhood experiences and see how many times they disagree about details although you know they were all there.

Agreed! He even admits in the book that he does some times forget. He is also very humble about his experiences.

I am reading mostly theology right now, but I have also finished some things on the British in the Middle East in WWI--'Hell in the Holy Land' and 'Setting the Desert Afire,' both of which were pretty good. (Forget the authors, sorry.) I have also been re-reading a couple of books about WWII in the Pacific: 'Liberation of the Phillippines' by Stanley Falk (in the old and wonderful Ballantine Series) and 'The Pacific War' (or is it 'War in the Pacific'?) by Harry A. Gailey, a historian I respect a great deal.

@John: yes A Bridge Too Far is indeed a very wonderfully detailed book. It is so good and extensive, it's very hard to make a review out of it.

I am continuing my WW II adventure by reading The Road to Arnhem - A Screaming Eagle in Holland by Donald R. Burgett, one of the 101st airborne division troopers involved in Operation Market-Garden.

Just finished 11 Days In December by Stanley Weintraub. A very good short book about The Bulge. A great introduction for anyone who has an interest in learning of The Bulge and has read no other book regarding such. I would recommend John C. McManus' Alamo In The Ardennes for a more in depth view of the winter offensive (I've read several other books regarding WWII by McManus and they are all very good). I've just ordered George W. Nell's Infantry Soldier: Holding The Line At The Battle Of The Bulge and Ken Hechler's The Bridge At Remagen.

Thanks, Juliet, I'll pick that one up. I liked Uris' Battle Cry - he based it on his own experience in the Marine Corps.

Mila 18 and Exodus are both quite good, particularly with characterizations. Exodus was a major movie event in the 60's as well directed by Otto Preminger with an all star cast led by Paul Newman as Ari Ben Canaan. Then there's Mitla Pass which is passible but lacks the power of the other 2. Battle Cry is good and was also made into a movie.

Reading Etched In Purple: One Soldier's War In Europe by Frank J. Irgang

I just started 'Among the Dead Cities' by Grayling - it's an examination of the philosophy and morality of the area bombings of cities in World War II. Not very far into it, but so far excellent.

Reading "The Battle of the bulge, the German Perspective: Perspectives from Hitler's High Command" by Danny S. Parker. It's about the planning for the Battle of the Bulge from Oct 44 to the start of the campaign. About halfway through and it's a very interesting book so far.

How hopeful were the German generals they could make Hitler's plan work?

In response to James: Most of the front line commanders favored a smaller offensive that would have stopped at the Maas River and enabled the Wehrmacht to reestablish a defensive line along the West Wall; followed by a retreat back to the West Wall to regroup and prepare for future Allied offensives. The corps and division commnaders, along with Rundstedt, did not believe they could protect the flanks during the offensive. Rundstedt and his subordinate commanders believed a limited offensive would unhinge the American forces in the Roer/Ruhr area and would cause an attrition rate that would require a build up of forces that would relieve the pressure on Germany in this area. The German High Command was not concerned with the British and Canadian armies in the north at this time. Another purpose of the limited offensive followed by retreat would have been the ability to move reserves to the Vosges once the West Wall was reestablished. Of course Hitler insisted on the objective of Antwerp and we know the outcome of the battle.

Hmm. So they wanted a limited spoiling attack to buy time more than a counteroffensive per se... given the rates at which the Germans were progressing with high-tech weapons - the ME-262, the V-3 super-artillery piece, and their nuclear program - I'm glad Hitler didn't listen.

I'm currently reading "Nazi Games, The Olympics of 1936, by David Large. I'm about half way through it, and it's a very good read and very informative.

Just joined this group. I just finished Winter in Madrid, historical fiction taking place just after the Spanish Civil War in the late 1930s, the story takes place as Hitler is on the doorstep of Spain. Review posted http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Here are my reviews on several other wartime books, non-fiction (see previous post for fiction):
1. Written on the Knee: A Diary from the Greek-Italian Front of WWII by Helen Electrie Lindsay (non-fiction) http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

2. Surviving the Odds: From D-Day to VE-Day with the 4th Division in Europe by Jack Capell(non-fiction). The author happens to be my father's cousin. http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

3. The Man in the White Sharkskin Suit: My Family's Exodus from Old Cairo to the New World by Lucette Lagnado (non-fiction). Not precisely a war story but takes place in that time and the exodus is because of WWII. Jews in Egypt. http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

4. The Zookeeper's Wife: A War Story by Diane Ackerman (non-fiction). Hiding Jews in and around the Warsaw Zoo. http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Alan wrote: "I'm reading Max Hastings's "Retribution". I like the British perspective of the book and I realize that I knew a lot less about the last year of the war in the Pacific than I thought."

Currently reading this too. I'm reading it precisely for the reason you mentioned.

I have since finished Retribution and really enjoyed it. I would recommend Hastings's Armaggedon for the same sort of coverage of the last year of the war in Europe.

Anyone here ever read Fatherland?
Is it that good? I mean, the hype seems high.