Jane Austen discussion

In my Penguin classics edition, this pp. 59-164.

I wondered if one of the most immediate things discovered by the Hales may be a very pivotal thing in learning about Northern society. They attempt to hire a girl to help in the household. They soon see that the girls are mostly employable by the factories and have their own ideas of working for a family new to town. The "girls" who are interviewed question the high attitude of Dixon and the family's means to pay them actually because the girls recognize the Hales don't have much income. I thought this was very straightforward thing Gaskell was bringing out about the working class girls.

I really believe that when Margaret meets the Higgins family that she begins her discovery of life. You really don't get the feeling that in her past life she has had many opportunities to "discover" anything about life or people outside of her immediate surroundings.

So it looks like as the Hale family's move to the North begins a time of burden for Margaret, in having to accept so much family responsibility, it is also a time when Margaret begins seeing and figuring out.

Sarah, you've made an excellent observation! I agree with you that meeting Bessy Higgins and Nicholas was profound for her. It gives her another set of eyes, if you will, through which she can see the world around her. Margaret Hale really is a remarkable young woman. While Margaret, and her family, definitely miss the pastoral south, I think she does really begin to 'live' during her time in the north.

I think I know now why I seem to be taking a long time to discuss this book. I just keep discovering things about and rethinking it as I go back into it.

One thing is I keep trying to decide which were pivotal chapters. After a while, all I am finding are pivotal chapters.

I kept looking at Chapter 15 today. This is a long conversation between John, Hale, and Margaret about the nature of the mill owner/mill worker relationship and so on. I decided it is where we really come out and start to look at the issues of this industrial society. I think it is also really where John and Margaret tune into each other. There is a part where it says that John "was speaking in a subdued voice, as if to her alone." I think that is the start where either openly or a few layers down, something starts up with them.

Not trying to make this comment too quiz-like, but what parts do you find to be main turning points in the novel?

I am just through chapter 16, so not quite finished with the section that this thread covers, but I wanted to post some things before I forget.

I am enjoying the bits of poetry that begin each chapter. In reading Possession, I mostly skipped over the samples of poetry because I was so anxious to see the story unfold. However, because I don't feel the urgency of a mystery in this story (and also in part to Chris's recommendation that the poetry is important and useful in Possession, so I thought that it must play a useful role in N&S as well) I am reading and lingering over the snippets of poetry. Not only have I enjoyed the lines (which is exciting for me, as a reluctant-lover of poetry), but they are also an insightful introduction to the content of each chapter.

Also, I appreciate the manner in which Gaskell writes the dialogue of the Higgins family. The way that some authors write the accents and syntax of uneducated characters are often difficult for me to read and properly understand, and overall just annoying (the gamekeeper in Lady Chatterly's Lover comes to mind). If this is the case, I find myself skimming over those characters' dialogue and I lose so much important material. However, Gaskell creates unique speech patterns for both Bessy and Nicholas that are easy for me to understand, enjoyable for me to read, and properly and usefully expressive of their education and class.

Lastly, the conversation between Mr. Hale, John Thornton, and Margaret (largely dominated by the latter two) was a very clever way to both develop the relationship between Thornton and Margaret and to bring up issues of the working class in an industrial society. Perhaps as a result of the critiques Gaskell received for being too critical of manufacturers and biased toward the poor in Mary Barton, Gaskell weaves her viewpoints into the burgeoning relationship of the Thornton and Margaret beautifully.

Joy, the more I went back over the novel, the more I appreciated the way Gaskell captured particularly Nicholas Higgins. Higgins was one of those people who would develop strength and a plan in life even as a place in life as a lowly worker. One of those people who amaze us in real life when we see what they have been through. We assume he has pretty much worked in a cotton mill most of his life. I actually live in what was a cotton mill town for close to a century here in the southern U.S. and have studied some about these mills. They were some of the most dangerous, hot, uncomfortable, unhealthy industrial environments (although in the 1800s, comparatively they may not have been so bad). So for a man to come through that with the mental means to want more and better and try to improve relations between owners and workers is amazing. This develops so well in the chapters ahead also.

But Gaskell does provide a nice balance between all the characters -- to me the beauty is that none of this is too dramatic. It is simply a story told with a great use of characters and relationships.

I think I will read Mary Barton next.

P.S. Than you for responding to my belated posts and engaging me in the discussion Sarah!

Sarah wrote: "Joy, the more I went back over the novel, the more I appreciated the way Gaskell captured particularly Nicholas Higgins. [...:] So for a man to come through that with the mental means to want more and better and try to improve relations between owners and workers is amazing. This develops so well in the chapters ahead also."

Well said Sarah, and I agree with you. He is a very interesting character and very well written. Gaskell skillfully crafts Nicholas so that he is both dynamic and believable.

I agree with everyone's thoughts on Nicholas. He seems so smart a man to be just a lowly mill worker. I think if given the proper opportunities he too could work himself up the way Mr. Thornton did.

(I think it's in this section of the novel) that you learn of Thornton's back story. I was really intrigued by it. I have to give props where they are due to Mrs. Thornton. Had it not been for her willingness to push John back up they could have very easily succumbed to poverty. While I'm not a huge fan of Mrs. Thornton I do have to respect her for this.

That is well put, Kim. Mrs. Thornton, not my favorite, but her discipline must have been amazing to raise her family with practically nothing to eat so that the debts could be paid back after her husband's death. Hers was a remarkable story and a case where a single woman did make a strong decision in life.

Not to get off topic, will your reading group also do Cranford, another Elizabeth Gaskell book, and Wives and Daughters?

Not off topic at all, Robin. We had first posted the North & South discussion a few months ago to make a comparison between that novel and Pride & Prejudice, so we were looking at it individually more than planning a discussion more of Gaskell's writing.

I know side reads like this make for interesting discussions. Now that Megan and Rachel are our primary moderators in the Jane Austen group, you might message them to their inboxes and see what plans are for side reads now and in future.

Additionally there are other GoodReads groups who discuss Gaskell and her era in depth too, such as The Victorians group.

I have upcoming plans to read Wives and Daughters and have already enjoyed Cranford very much. I thought North and South was amazing, as you can tell by my comments here!

Thanks, Sarah.