Jane Austen discussion

Part 2 of our discussion.

I'm in the middle of the first battle now, and find it very exciting. And I can understand enough of it.

It's fun! I can skip most of the other nautical stuff and enjoy the action, too. I am just starting Chapter 5, but I've been packing rather than reading. Enjoy!

Combat between two (or more) ships at sea, in those days, must have been terrifying and of a ferocity little seen in the history of warfare. Think about it; the ultimate result is to so incapacitate your opponent that he strikes his colors, or is sunk. It is not like a battle on land, where when the 'going gets tough, the tough get going.' There's nowhere to go! Slugging out it out with the great guns; chunks of wood flying about, cannon unhorsed, risk of fire and explosion; and then, hand-to-hand combat when one ship's crew boards the other vessel. Truly 'survival of the fittest!'

To represent this form of naval combat, I am always reminded of Lord Nelson's advice, "Never mind the maneuvers, sail straight at 'em."

I think O'Brian has done a sterling job of portraying those few minutes of nightmarish sheer horror and terror within each battle that Jack Aubrey and his crew are engaged.

"I think O'Brian has done a sterling job of portraying those few minutes of nightmarish sheer horror and terror within each battle that Jack Aubrey and his crew are engaged."

It sounds like sheer horror and terror to me too, with people getting killed and seriously wounded, but Jack seems to enjoy it.

Alicia wrote: ""I think O'Brian has done a sterling job of portraying those few minutes of nightmarish sheer horror and terror within each battle that Jack Aubrey and his crew are engaged."

It sounds like shee..."

If you are the Captain of a ship you are already there. I have served under Captains who saw combat on riverine patrols in Vietnam on the Mekong, and when we went up against the drug traffickers in the Caribbean they didn't blink an eye. Command is a special emotion, and I think Patrick O'Brian dwells on the rigors of command in these novels; which is why they are required reading at the naval academy and naval war college. These books are a study in command.

I think Jack enjoys doing. He's at sea to engage "enemy" ships and win the prize, so the adrenaline and the thrill take over and he must feel very much alive. What seems harsh, but must have been part of surviving, are the brief entries in the journal. Deaths along side tacking, and recording of stores, all of them equally important or trivial.

Wow--these chapters were very exciting. I am just astounded at the excitement of the officers and crew at heading quickly toward an enemy ship. I'm like, "Helllooo--they will see you and fire at you! And then you will sink!!"

But this is the way of life for these men (and boys!) and this is how to get paid some extra dough, so they just go for it without hesitation. I appreciate that Aubrey thinks about his actions on multiple levels; well, we don't see him think, we see him act and then hear about his thoughts when Maturin questions him. But, Aubrey not only wants to get the money for himself and his crew for the monetary value, but also in order to raise morale, prevent crew members from deserting, etc. That intangible 'morale' is so powerful, and Aubrey really understands the value. Which is another reason why he was so excited to have Maturin on board; a knowledgeable physician helps the men to feel brave and helps them to charge into battle without hesitation.

Joy wrote: "Wow--these chapters were very exciting. I am just astounding at the excitement of the officers and crew at heading quickly toward an enemy ship. I'm like, "Helllooo--they will see you and fire at y..."

I couldn't have summed it up better, Joy! That is precisely what is going on!

A lot of interesting things are revealed in this section. We know more of the political and religious background of Dillon and Maturin. Dillon dislikes Aubrey and possibly misunderstands Aubrey's mindset, thinking he is taking advantage of Marshall. And will we see Aubrey continue to drink onshore to his detriment?

One part struck me more than anything. Maturin writing his diary -- he makes a statement of how the assumption of authority causes such a change in the nature of men. "Shrivelled men -- shrivelled in essence." He sees a drastic change from the Dillon he once knew and wonders if this will occur in the still unaffected Aubrey. This is so interesting to me and I wonder what part this aspect will play in the O'Brian's overall story and specifically in the Aubrey/Maturin friendship.

I love the part (p. 216) about the midshipmen's observations -- "the ship's cat could hat written them better." So funny that the old captain used to throw them out the window when delivered.

The story just gets more interesting....

How many of you have found Patrick O'Brian's clever play on words that, in my opinion, is a direct and explicit nod to Jane Austen's novel, Mansfield Park? It is in this section of the novel. I'll give you a further hint too -- it is contained near the end of Chapter Five.

Just a quick note to give you all a sense of the geographic scope of all of the sailing about of H.M.S. Sophie. Basically Sophie and her crew, using Minorca's Port Mahon as their base, spend most of their time marauding up along the Spanish and French Mediterranean coastlines, and eastward toward the Italian coast, and then ranging south around Corsica and Sardinia. Get out an atlas, and you can see that there is a lot of back-and-forth, and looping about as Jack and the crew pursue French and Spanish shipping and warships.

Christopher wrote: "How many of you have found Patrick O'Brian's clever play on words that, in my opinion, is a direct and explicit nod to Jane Austen's novel, Mansfield Park? It is in this section of the novel. I'l..."

I think we are thinking of the same thing, but will go back and see the location before I comment because I did wonder about that. I wondered if it was so common a term or joke that it might have been found elsewhere. hmmm

Christopher wrote: "Just a quick note to give you all a sense of the geographic scope of all of the sailing about of H.M.S. Sophie. Basically Sophie and her crew, using Minorca's Port Mahon as their base, spend most ..."

Thanks for the geo information. I hadn't thought to look at that on the atlas. And apparently this was a successful region for the naval men hoping to gain riches from the enemy so they were excited about it being their assigned spot.

I also forgot to mention when I posted those things I found interesting from this section of the book -- Stephen and the serpent -- or was there more than one even?

And, question -- when they were counting on their prize money from capturing the ship, Aubrey says he will buy more powder. Was this just a little extra he wanted to ensure that he had or would the captain have been expected to purchase some supplies or munitions regularly?

Sarah wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Just a quick note to give you all a sense of the geographic scope of all of the sailing about of H.M.S. Sophie. Basically Sophie and her crew, using Minorca's Port Mahon as the..."

Yes, Stephen does love to collect things. He then stores them in booze (probably brandy), such as his poisonous asp; which, of course, no self-respecting sailor can resist. So, they pilfer his 'bottled' critters and drink the booze (discarding the preserved critter). This, as you can see, infuriates Stephen to no end. I can tell you that in further novels, this disgraceful business only gets worse. And, of course, Jack is no help; as he generally understands the sailor's side of it all. Quite humorous, all in all.

Regarding Jack purchasing additional gunpowder stores. The RN typically provided a Captain with enough extra powder for a practice broadside per month. Fighting Captains generally used their own money to buy additional stores so that he could train the gun crews to an extremely high level. Jack Aubrey is one such Captain. As a Captain he likes to fire the great guns for an hour or so each day before sunset. This is why his ships and crews were always quite successful in naval combat. Other Captains were scrimpers and just had the crews run the guns out occasionally for show (no firing) and kept their ships pin-neat. Jack is not a 'showy' Captain, he's a fighter; and he didn't care if the ship wasn't quite as highly polished and painted up.

Darn, I forgot to look for the Mansfield Park reference...What do you think it is Sarah??

Joy wrote: "Darn, I forgot to look for the Mansfield Park reference...What do you think it is Sarah??"

Well, I suspect it is during the discussion about Marshall and Aubrey, when Stephen mentions what Aubrey said about "rears and vices." I think it was Mary Crawford that brings up that expression in Mansfield Park. But I don't remember, was she speaking in general of the less-than-polite conversation of the navy or of a specific person? Mary was such a busy person, I don't always remember all her details (yes, that's my jab at Mary).

Speaking strictly of Master & Commander, I am curious to see where this subject goes within the story.

Sarah wrote: "Joy wrote: "Darn, I forgot to look for the Mansfield Park reference...What do you think it is Sarah??"

Well, I suspect it is during the discussion about Marshall and Aubrey, when Stephen mentions ..."

You nailed it, Sarah! Well done! It was Mary Crawford, and it was said as a sexual inuendo as a reference to the lecherous older Captains and Admirals that tended to hang about her Uncle's house (a retired Admiral himself), as he was raising Henry and Mary (I think their parents were dead). I'm sure that the young Mary Crawford was quite the precocious little flirt.

Jack's use of it, in his rejoinder to Stephen, is a direct reference to the periodic homosexual acts he probably saw aboard the ships he served upon. And again, I think Jack is making a pun, in a fashion similar to Mary Crawford.

Good catch, Sarah; I owe you a dish of your favorite ice-cream and berries when we all finally meet!

Great job Sarah - gold star for you!

Christopher wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Joy wrote: "Darn, I forgot to look for the Mansfield Park reference...What do you think it is Sarah??"

Well, I suspect it is during the discussion about Marshall and Aubrey, when Ste..."

yes, I remember now, Mary speaking of the uncle's acquaintances. Mary was an outright person with conversation herself, but I guess she was raised in that atmosphere.

I'll hang on to that promise of the ice cream! And Joy, it just makes us wonder what interesting story lies ahead for us in O'Brian, right?

Joy wrote: ""

Good job, Joy: you're a lot smarter than I am when it comes to these things!

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Joy wrote: ""

Perfect! Perfect! Perfect!

I know--I want some!!

Joy wrote: "I know--I want some!!"

I have to say that I am so proud of Sarah for picking that up. It was subtle. I read the book five times before it hit me over the head like a baseball bat! I think what saved my bacon was that I read Mansfield Park right before I started the series again.

I agree--great job Sarah! Even after I read your description, I have no recollection of that occurring; nor do I recollect the reference in Mansfield Park! Bravo!! I will have to be more focused from now on :)

Thanks for the star! I always liked those in school! And it proves there is always a reason for a Jane Austen reread -- Mansfield Park! ha ha

You are welcome!

There is always more to discover by rereading Austen. My husband actually joked the other day (I was buying a stack of books at the used bookstore and he was giving me a hard time about having so many TBRs) that he was going to put a hold on me reading any Austen until I read all of the other books I have. Well, after he saw the terrified look on my face he assured me he was kidding :) But this is a good reason I can give him why I do need to keep rereading!

I'm glad you found it Sarah. I remember the line in M&C, but don't remember it directly from Mansfield Park. I was looking for something totally different!