The Mighty Pen Writing Club discussion

OK. We all love reading about a great villain that makes us cower in fear and not turn off the light.
What is a book with no villain? Even if its just a bully at school, for you what are the key elements of an awesome bad-guy?
What bad guys are in your story? Why should we fear them? What aspects of evilness do they have, and how much thought do you put into them?

I love epic bad guys the best - like REALLY REALLY EVIL MWAHAHAHAH!

I personally don't like bad guys who are portrayed as "just misunderstood." I like my good guys "good" and my bad guys BAAAAAAD!

As opposed to Draco Malfoy?

well so do mine, but my purpose isn't to make readers feel sorry for the villain[s:], they're supposed to hate them and cheer on the good guys :D

But yeah, bad guys have to have reasons for doing bad things, if only to make them functional

no one wakes up in the morning thinking: haha, lets make every ones lives awful!

there must be a reason.
im going to post more after homework.

My villains are bad because they have reasons BUT I always make it clear that they had the choice to remain on the good side and didn't take it.

I live for a great villain! Unfortunately, I think they are so hard to get right. Villains are one of my greatest weaknesses as a writer. Grrrr. that's why I admire those who do it so brilliantly.

I agree with both sides of this argument. I want my villain to be very very bad, evil, nasty, has to be stopped or else... But when you can create a villain like that and then give him (or her) more depth so that sometimes you find yourself understanding how they became that way or even possibly sympathizing with them at times, then that's what makes a good villain great. Not just giving them reasons for their evil plot, but giving them character as well.

One example of what I mean is the villain from the book Kissed By An Angel by Elizabeth Chandler. (I won't say who it is so that I don't spoil it for anyone) The villain was the reason I loved that book so much.

I also really liked the villain in Graceling by Kristin Cashore. Very twisted! And I just read the companion novel, Fire, where you learn and see a little more of him. So creepy!

I think the way I see good villains is:
As a reader, maybe you could feel sorry for them at one point, but their actions have pushed them past the point for empathy and you just can't stand them.

For example: I *COULD* (and did) feel a little sorry for Tom Riddle - his childhood and what he went through, but when he became Voldemort and did all those totally awful things - with absolutely no remorse - I just couldn't feel sympathy for him at all. Even when Harry was all like "I feel sorry for you" and whatnot. Hahaha I was reading that going "shut up Harry and KILL HIM already!"

And I can't really say anything definitive since I haven't read the book yet, but my little cousins tell me that President Snow from The Hunger Games is an awesome villain in his total evilness. I asked them if they felt "sorry" for him, or if they could "relate" to him...I think they inquired as to whether or not I was crazy...

To me, it's not so much feeling sorry for villains, it's being able to maybe see a little bit of yourself in them. I don't want to *sympathize* with my villains, but two of them especially kind of freak me out because I'm writing them and I'm thinking, Wow, that's not so different from how I feel sometimes, or Maybe I could actually see myself doing that... you know? It's like, they're scary because you see a little bit of yourself in them.

I don't know. To me, that's what makes a truly scary character: recognizing the badness and thinking that maybe they're not so different from you after all...?

I dont think you should ever feel sorry for a villain. Too me, they look like they have a weak spot then.

They should however, have a reason for it.

The absolutely PERFECT example of this is AARON and MAYOR PRENTISS in The Knife of Never Letting Go.
I totally understood why they did what they did, but I never, ever felt sorry for them.

Booklover23 wrote: "I dont think you should ever feel sorry for a villain. Too me, they look like they have a weak spot then.

They should however, have a reason for it.

The absolutely PERFECT example of this is AA..."

Definitely agree!!
However I just thought about it, and there is actually a "bad guy" character I liked\felt sorry for: Luke in the Percy Jackson series - several times throughout the series I found myself agreeing with him! But then again, he's not the Ultimate Bad Guy of the series, Kronos was. And he was just downright evil.

But yeah, you basically said it all perfectly! As usual!

Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "I think the way I see good villains is:
As a reader, maybe you could feel sorry for them at one point, but their actions have pushed them past the point for empathy and you just can't stand them.

..."
I agree. My story right now doesn't have a main villain (just his...henchmen? I guess that's the right word) but the other "bad guys" vary in their evilness. The main villain is in my friend's side of the story (we're writing it together) and he's like how you said, at one point could have been redeemed but has pushed himself too far.

Amelia (Imagination in Focus) wrote: "And I can't really say anything definitive since I haven't read the book yet, but my little cousins tell me that President Snow from The Hunger Games is an awesome villain in his total evilness. I asked them if they felt "sorry" for him, or if they could "relate" to him...I think they inquired as to whether or not I was crazy..."

He's definitely a villain...you're supposed to hate him. With a fiery passion. You don't really get any background info on him, yet. I'm crossing my fingers for some kind of story in Mockingjay.

I guess sometimes that can work toward intrigue, though, to not know that much about a bad guy.
Now, I don't have my anthology with me, but off the top of my head, I don't remember much history or story about Sauron from LOTR
And definitely not Emperor Palpatine from STAR WARS :P Sometimes the best, nastiest villains are the ones who are also shrouded in mystery...

Oh, in The Bone Magician I felt soooooooo sorry for the villain.
I almost wanted him to win.
*almost*
I just felt so bad for the poor guy, and definitely understood why he did what he did.

Has anyone read Evil Genius and Genius Squad by Catherine Jinks?
Prosper English is a marvelous villain!
Im pretty sure i was barracking for him to win the whole time :)

Hahaha I know the feeling!
In WICKED LOVELY, I was totally rooting for Keenan's mom :]

Some villains are just interesting, and if I don't like the main character, I will often root for the villain.
Horrible, right?!

hahahaha lol, i loved the second line :)

I know what you mean! The main character of EVIL GENIUS, i grew to like him-but hated him early on, so i guess ive got a soft spot for Prosper English, who is an excellent villain :)

But I believe Voldemort is marvelous, too

Prosper's a great villain because I think he's not that bad, then remember how badly he messed up poor Cadel and hate him all over again.

Some villains are so over-the-top, they're sort of entertaining. It's weird, because they're bad and you're supposed to not like them, but you can't help but like their scenes.
The Queen of Hearts in the LOOKING GLASS WARS series is one of my favorite villains, because she's such a sociopath that she's weirdly entertaining. She's just *so* "out there" and she doesn't even try to be normal or fool/tempt anyone. She is what she is, and in a weird way, I kind of like that.
:P
Team Queen of the Winter Court!

I think villains and bad guys don't have to be something scary and monster-y. It can be the character itself, like when they're debating with their own heart, or something like that.

I Love villains more than the 'hero' or the main character which I think is the villain in some books like the vampire chronicles by Anne rice, it began with the vampire Lestat as the evil bad guy who completely destroys 'Louis' life not only by killing him but by pushing him to his limits, & then it became so obvious that Lestat was more interesting then all the other characters... I didn’t feel sad for him nor did I relate & he did evil things & I think his inner struggle with his human nature verses his vampire nature i.e. his good side & his bad side, it makes him more realistic then some of the ‘good’ guys in other books who are pure good & hold on to their convictions throughout... I truly hate books where the hero is purely good & never falters.

A book with all good characters lack reality. Life isn't full of a bunch of goody two-shoes. There is a mixture: black, white and grey. We are flawed. Flawed characters give us conflict in the story, right?

Leola wrote: "A book with all good characters lack reality. Life isn't full of a bunch of goody two-shoes. There is a mixture: black, white and grey. We are flawed. Flawed characters give us conflict in the stor..."

I completely agree!
In fact I think the best stories are the ones that show you the decent from naive goodness to blind hatred & then to the middle ground... does that make sense?
A good example would be The Count of Monte Cristo, Edmund went from happy go lucky to a miserably insane prisoner to a powerful emissary of vengeance only to be humbled by Providence & realize that he could have destroyed the people he cared most about...
Maybe there are some who would disagree with me but I don’t think the Edmund was a good guy throughout & that’s why I loved the book.

Shush231 wrote: "I completely agree!
In fact I think the best stories are the ones that show you the decent from naive goodness to blind hatred & then to the middle ground... does that make sense? "

Or the character goes from naive to understanding without losing the goodness, but the innocence of a child. That's how my MC is. Also, no matter the character, if they influence the plot at all they should have an in-depth bio. Things don't just happen, but people make one choice, which influences someone else's choices, which influences someone...etc.

that's the kind of story I'd want to read, Jess!

As a reader, the biggest problem *I* have with books (and this is just me personally) is that I get the feeling that the author wants to make her (and this is usually always a girl thing) character "interesting" and so she'll overdo it. For better or worse, I can't care about a character I don't like, and if I can't relate to a character (because he/she is too over-the-top, stereotypical, or TOO flawed) I won't finish the story.

I think, perhaps, one of the most vile, evil villains I have EVER read about in a fiction novel is George Harvey from The Lovely Bones. Just beyond...evil. He is portrayed, in my opinion, perfectly in the film version by Stanley Tucci.

Melissa

Yes, i believe Tucci did a marvelous, tremendous job at portraying Harvey.
He didnt win an academy award, though.
He lost to Christoph Waltz, who played Hans Landa in INGlORIOUS BASTERDS.
Mind you, Waltz was better then Tucci. Just.

While I truly did enjoy "Inglorious Basterds" and Christoph Waltz's performance, I still believe the Academy Award should have went to Stanley Tucci. Why? Because Waltz, like most winners in the supporting actor/actress categories unfortunately, was only in the film for probably 20 minutes. Yes, he made a superb entrance and an excellent exit...in between he was nowhere to be found. Stanley Tucci however was entangled through out the movie and there are only a few scenes that do not have him involved in the film. I honestly believe if they are going to bestow such a high honor on an actor/actress they should be in a film for more then 30 minutes...although this is obviously not the rule. If it were Nicole Kidman would not have won her Oscar for "The Hours." I loved her performance and obviously the movie revolved around her character but she should never have been nominated for best LEAD actress -- she was (I know this for a fact because I was nerdy enough to time it -- sometimes I have too much time on my hands!) in the film for less then 20 minutes. I don't recall who ran up against her that year but I do know they were all in the films they were nominated for for more then 20 minutes. Anyway -- end of rant!!!

mmm. True.
Waltz was superb, but Tucci was found more often.
I guess it comes down to if the character has a huge influence on the movie-and they steal the spot light every time, thats all that matters.
But Waltz...he was amazing.
He was like the only actor on screen during his scenes, and I guess it was enough to win.
He sealed the deal with his:Thats a bingo! scene.

Some of my favorite villains are:

Voldemort (Harry Potter) (Duh)
Valentine (Mortal Instruments)
Akito (Fruits Basket)
Ivi (Does she count?) (Fairest)
Prosper English (Evil Genius)

I have no idea what they all have in common...wait. Maybe it's that all of these villains had several opportunities to become a better person. Some take it, (Akito, Ivi), and some don't. But I like that it show that the choices we make are OURS to make.

PROSPER ENGLISH!

I love him! He is such an amazing villain :)
I love the scene in the second book, after the air port incident, when Saul, Sonja and Cadel are in the car, and Sonja is having a fit, and they have to work out why.
Jeez, that scene gave me goosebumps :P

omg gotta love voldemort

just stumbled upon this:
probably the best description of a villain I've ever read:
"He'd changed since the last summer. Instead of Bermuda shorts and a T-shirt, he wore a button-down shirt, khaki pants, and leather loafers. His sandy hair, which used to be so unruly, was now clipped short.He look like an evil male model, showing off what the fashionable college-age villain was wearing to Harvard this year."
:D

hahahaha I love it!
Wheres it from???

one of the PERCY JACKSON books. Can't remember which one, though

Think the second because that's when he saw hima fter a year.
*Loved* Voldie and Luke. Could relate with both but they still remained the villains.