Chirenjenzie discussion

Feel free to post questions or a sentence or two that are giving you fits. We already have some great members that are willing to field questions, so fire away!

This isn't really grammar, but something I've blogged about is how authors sometimes don't understand Associated Press style, the style used for newspapers. This becomes a problem when an author decides to "write" an article in the book itself and gets the style and method of writing a news story all wrong. Writing prose is as alien to writing news articles as Star Trek is to Lord of the Rings.

In short, to journalists, it is a glaring mistake and one that is easily remedied. (Any local journalist would most likely be happy to help you out.)

I would also be happy to answer any questions.

Check out my blog at the link provided by Liz below. The actual post is called, "Faux news articles in YA novels: Tread lightly, Stephenie Meyer" Thanks!

You know, I not only read that, I copied it, pasted it, and saved it to a flash drive (hope that's not a copyright issue :-). It truly is a great post. I'm glad you thought to share it!
Thanks Ray!

Did that link go to my blog? I clicked the link to test it and it went to a spam site. If it did, just go to regancoomer.wordpress.com. That's my blog url. Thanks all.

Oooh, you're right. Would you mind to edit that out? I'll put the right on in...hang on..

I tried to find the specific article... but then I got caught up in the Austin blog. Yeah, I stalk you, what can I say?

http://regancoomer.wordpress.com/2010...

Regan wrote: "This isn't really grammar, but something I've blogged about is how authors sometimes don't understand Associated Press style, the style used for newspapers. This becomes a problem when an author de..."

I read the article and you made some excellent points. If I ever write a news article into one of my books I'll have to watch the fluffy prose and keep it to the facts.

Thank you! I'm glad my post was helpful. And really, please feel free to ask me any questions you might have about Associated Press style.

Hey all - would it be helpful if I posted the top 5 or so grammar mistakes I've noticed in reading/writing/twittering? Something similar to the "most misspelled words lists"? They may be simple, but these are the kinds of mistakes you want your MS to be free from. ; )

Yaaaaay! Ray we love you! Please post away!

I have a whole page of writing tips that I share with the writers at work. I'll start posting some of them, too. Okay, here's today's post:

Common Mistakes with Apostrophes

Do not use an apostrophe when pluralizing numbers and acronyms. For example:

Wrong: There are 100's of ATM's in the city.
Right: There are 100s of ATMs in the city.

Additionally, do not use "it's" to show the possessive for "it." "It's" always means "it is." For example:

Wrong: The company posted it's earnings.
Right: The company posted its earnings.

*perks up* english teacher here!!!

i can definitely pass along common errors i find in student writing and resources i've made or have found as well. just holler at me :) i have tons of stuff on grammar and writing and editing...plus i have a whole file of student writing errors as well. not sure if any of that will be helpful, but just thought i'd let ya know :)

Ok, I've written this quickly, so if something is (gasp!) incorrect, let me know so I can quickly and shamefully fix it. But here we go:

Top Five Common Grammar mistakes.

1. It’s Grammar, not Grammer. I know, I know. English is ridiculous. But it’s something A LOT of people do – especially when complaining about others’ grammar.
2. It’s/Its confusing. If you want the longer explanation, “it’s” is a contraction of “it is” and “its” is a possessive pronoun, used similarly to “his, hers, mine, yours.” To make it easier for you, if you’re not sure which is correct, read the it’s/its as “it is.”
a. For example: The author wasn’t sure if the thread was true to its/it’s purpose. “It is” does not make sense in this sentence. Instead, “its,” is a possessive pronoun referring back to the noun, “thread.”
3. You’re/your impossible! Not so much, as long as you A. understand the difference or B. read the your/you’re sans contraction to see if it works. Here we go: “Your” is a possessive pronoun again, used to mean ownership. “You’re,” however, is a pesky contraction meaning, “you are.” For example:
a. You’re/your ridiculous! You should definitely turn in your/you’re manuscript! In other words, “You are (you’re) ridiculous. You should definitely turn in your (possessive) manuscript.
4. It’s “In Other Words,” NOT “Anotherwords.” For lack of a better word, “in other words,” is a bastardization of “anotherwords,” or another example of the English language getting lazy. ; )
5. Affect vs. Effect is something even I, a self-professed grammar lover, have to think about sometimes. Generally, “affect” is a verb while “effect” is a noun.
a. Incorrect grammar affects me physically.
b. The effect of incorrect grammar has yet to be recorded.

Jacquelyn wrote: "I have a whole page of writing tips that I share with the writers at work. I'll start posting some of them, too. Okay, here's today's post:

Common Mistakes with Apostrophes

Do not use an apostrop..."

Thanks Jacquelyn! Apostrophes can be a booger. I've had issues with the possessive use myself. I appreciate this post :)

Regan wrote: "Ok, I've written this quickly, so if something is (gasp!) incorrect, let me know so I can quickly and shamefully fix it. But here we go:

Top Five Common Grammar mistakes.

1. It’s Grammar, not Gra..."

Thanks for the input, Regan! The group is a happier place. I make thoughtless mistakes frequently, but poor grammAr is irritating. Yes, the capital A was deliberate ;) Looking forward to hearing y'all's thoughts on the matter! Feel free to correct me where necessary. :P

Catherine wrote: "*perks up* english teacher here!!!

i can definitely pass along common errors i find in student writing and resources i've made or have found as well. just holler at me :) i have tons of stuff on ..."

Absolutely! I personally would love it if you could post a sentence or two, and then the corrected version. I know it sounds silly, but those of us who aren't faced with it everyday forget...kind of like Algebra, only worse. We have several teachers on this thread, and I'm extremely grateful. Grammar is the one issue that makes me feel inadequate. I can pull people in, describe a scene, make them feel, in essence I do naturally what most people find difficult. But commas, dangling anythings, and proper nouns (believe it or not) give me fits. Sometimes I just feel like Rainman!

Elizabeth wrote: "Catherine wrote: "*perks up* english teacher here!!!

i can definitely pass along common errors i find in student writing and resources i've made or have found as well. just holler at me :) i have..."

Hahaha, Beth! You're not Rainman in that sense. You do have a ridiculous talent for drawing people in.

That's the thing that's so great about this group. We have a little bit of everything. If we utilize what we learn on here, we're all the better for it!

Elizabeth wrote: "Catherine wrote: "*perks up* english teacher here!!!

i can definitely pass along common errors i find in student writing and resources i've made or have found as well. just holler at me :) i have..."

Ok, here goes--might be silly, but I see them enough that I guess I'll point em' out lol

Usage Errors:

their/there/they're
Everybody listens to music and everyone has there favorite type.

Correction: Everyone listens to music, and everyone has THEIR favorite type.

There: location (over there). i remember this by thinking "ere" is in the word "here" and here refers to location just like there does.

Their: shows possession. i remember this one by thinking it has an "I" in it--so "I"=ownership.

They're: They+are. i haven't come up w/ a trick for this one yet...the way I think of it is that the "a" is missing, so i know "are" is supposed to be there.

That's how I teach those to my students :)

I also see a lot of errors with it's/its (which i think someone already pointed out).

the other thing i see a lot of is confusion with commas and when to use them. i actually have a handy dandy handout for that:

Clearing Up Comma Confusion


Use commas in the following instances:


3 + in a series

*Use a comma to separate a series of three or more parallel (the same) words, phrases, or clauses.

Examples:
My favorite movies include When Harry Met Sally, The Princess Bride, and Moulin Rouge.

Today I studied, cleaned, and cooked.

He walked into my office, took off his jacket, and sat down.


complex or compound-complex sentences (or between two independent clauses joined by FOR AND NOR BUT YET SO).

*Use a comma to separate two independent clauses joined by the FANBOYS (coordinating conjunctions).

Examples:
I was jealous, but I kept quiet about it.

Nice is a word with many meanings, and some of them are contradictory.

I would like to watch a movie, or I would like to go out.


introductory words and phrases

*Use a comma at the beginning of a sentence after an introductory clause or phrase, a dependent clause that comes before the main clause of a sentence, and also to set off a conjunctive adverb (however, subsequently, also, further, moreover, similarly, therefore, besides…see list on Beacon 162).

Examples:

Introductory phrase: In March, many students travel to warmer climates for Spring Break.

Dependent clause: According to him, everything is fine and there are no problems.

Conjunctive adverb: Consequently, prenatal care is essential for the well-being of both mothers and babies.


nonrestrictive information
*use a comma, or pair of commas, to set off nonrestrictive information—a word, phrase, or clause—that adds to but does not substantially alter the meaning of a sentence.

Examples:
Clause: That Tuesday, which happens to be my birthday, is the only day when I am available to meet.

Phrase: This restaurant has an exciting atmosphere. The food, on the other hand, is rather bland.

Word: I appreciate your hard work. In this case, however, you seem to have over-exerted yourself.

**yes, no, and other interjections follow that same rule
Examples:

Yes, the movie opens this weekend.

However, he decided to leave town unexpectedly.

Okay, so I thought character motivation was a problem.

contrasting sentence elements
*because words & phrases that provide contrasting details do not function grammatically as parts of a sentence, separate them from the rest of the sentence with commas.

Examples:
He was merely in denial, not stupid.

You’re one of Xander’s friends, aren’t you?

expressions that signal direct quotations
*use a comma to separate an expression such as he said or she commented from the quotation it identifies, whether at the beginning, middle, or end of a quote.

Examples:
He said with no emotion, “I think this is stupid.”
“I was able,” she answered, “to complete the assignment.”


numbers, addresses, dates, place names, titles.

Examples:
Number: 1,317

Address: 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC

Dates: July 4, 1776

Place names: Terre Haute, Indiana

Titles: Rachel B. Lake, MD




unnecessary commas
*don’t use commas in the following instances—

between subject and verb: An eighteen year-old in California, is now considered an adult.

between compound elements that are not independent clauses: We laid out our music and snacks, and began to study.

between first and last items in a series: Reading, writing, and watching tv, are some of my favorite ways to relieve stress.

with an indirect quotation or direct quotation introduced by THAT:
Shakespeare said, that “the course of true love never did run smoothly.”

sorry this is so long-winded!

Awesome post!!!!!!!!!

What, are you kidding?! To me, this is gold! My biggest problem seems to be the "between compound elements that are not independent clauses". I naturally throw commas out like candy on Fat Tuesday. Also, I'm awful at commas when using subordinate(?)conjunctions (my favorite one is "as").

I tried to followed the rules in the last book and hated it! It stops the flow of the words, and it confuses the hell out of me.

Next book, I'm going rogue and not putting them in if it stops the flow of the thought! (Well, until someone tells me that I have to, and then I'll growl a little).

Alright, here's one for you:

Asteria is full of names, but according to the Chicago Manuel of Style, formal names that are a title but are used in conversation are not capitalized. This makes no sense to me, but I followed the rule.

According to CMOS all of these are correct.

Why is that, my queen?
Why is that, Queen Lera?
Why is that, Prine Gavin?
Why is that, prince?
Why is that, Your Highness?
Why is that, love?
Why is that, Ancient One?
I've never understood why I wouldn't capitalize prince, but Your Highness, or why if I'm talking to someone but calling them a pet name it's lowercase.

And while I'm on this little rant, if you follow the CMOS advice, God, the Pope, and the Bible aren't supposed to be capitalized either.

After about a month of pulling my hair out, I found out that, in truth, it's all subjective anyway. Proper nouns are capitalized, and so it all depends on what you think is proper.

So I'm going to expose my writing warts for the world to see, and just ask. How can this possibly be right?

Prince Gavin *swoon* hahah I know I'm good for nothing on this thread lol

Hey girlie! And you're always good for something, especially a smile!

I'm glad! :)
It's just when I saw Gavin's name there I just had to do a little swooning lol
<33

Elizabeth wrote: "What, are you kidding?! To me, this is gold! My biggest problem seems to be the "between compound elements that are not independent clauses". I naturally throw commas out like candy on Fat Tuesday...."


haha! that is so strange that Chicago says that...I don't know much about Chicago (I really only know MLA) but still. That doesn't make any sense to me either.

I read, re-read, asked, and did it all over again, and still no one had answers. Now we're into the second book, I still don't know. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

I think I can help with this one! If it's a regular noun, like queen, doctor, professor, you don't capitalize it *unless* you're using it as part of their title, such as Queen Lera, Dr. Smith, and Professor Gordon, or if there is only one. So you write "God" because it's a proper name ("Well, God, what do I do now?"), but if there are multiple gods (e.g., if you're talking to Zeus, you'd write, "Well, god, what do I do now?" Similarly, you'd write, "Hail, queen!" but if you're clarifying *which* queen by adding her name, it's "Hail, Queen Lera!" I don't have my good old copy of CMOS in front of me, but I think that's the underlying thinking behind the rule. Hope that helps!

Okay, time for another tip of the day. This is one of my favorites.

Hyphens and "-ly" Adverbs

Do not use a hyphen after "-ly" adverbs. For example:

Wrong: frequently-asked questions

Right: frequently asked questions

Thanks Jacquelyn. That's what I thought, but it just seemed odd to not capitalize prince, but then capitalize Mighty Oak in the same sentence. :-)

That's a great example! If you're wandering through an oak grove, you might say "I love your branches, mighty oak." But if that's really a title that's reserved for one special tree, it becomes "I love your branches, Mighty Oak."

Today, I'm posting my very favorite tip.

That vs. Which

"That" clarifies which thing you're talking about, whereas "which" merely adds additional information. You do not use a comma before "that" and always use a comma before "which". For example:

Right: The car, which is red, is in the garage. (There's only one car, and you're giving more info about it)

Right: The car that is red is in the garage. (There's more than one car, and the red one is in the garage)

Wrong: The car which is in the garage is red. (Use a comma before "which")

Wrong: The car, that is red, is in the garage. (Don't use a comma before "that")

Exception: For the sake of readability, it is acceptable to ignore these rules in cases where you would end up with "that that", such as in the sentence "That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger."

Great tip! Thanks Jacquelyn! :-)

Tense Question
This isn't grammar exactly, but here seemed like the best place to post it.
I am writing in past tense, and am struggling with what to do when I have an extended scene to relate that happened prior to the narrative's present (the narrative's presence being already related in past tense.)
So, when I am speaking of the past, I will use "had." But this quickly becomes awkward after a few sentences. Can I use had in the first sentence to establish where in time the events are occurring and then switch back to plain past tense? Or must I keep up the 'had's all the way through?
Ack.

Maybe you could write that "past" scene in present tense rather than dealing with all the "hads." By that I mean using the *** before and after that section or perhaps labeling it, such as Spring, 2009? Another way to do it could be framing it with words, such as "I lent back in my chair, closed my eyes, and remembered ______" If you frame it clearly, readers shouldn't have a hard time understanding what's going on in the current timeline. And what isn't. : )

Hmm. Thanks, Regan. I always frame it (it's usually somebody thinking back.) So maybe that will work. Think I'll try with frames and cutting down on "had"s and ask my betas to let me know if they can't follow :).

Layla Messner wrote: "Tense Question
This isn't grammar exactly, but here seemed like the best place to post it.
I am writing in past tense, and am struggling with what to do when I have an extended scene to relate tha..."

Past tense within past tense gives me fits. I've found if one is writing in third person there's little need to keep all the "had"s in. Where it becomes a problem is if you're in first person, because then the narrator is recounting an event prior to the event. But if you're in third person, after identifying the time period, you probably don't have to worry about playing with the tenses.

Gene - I am in 1st person, "recounting events prior to the event." Does that change you thoughts, Regan?

Layla Messner wrote: "Gene - I am in 1st person, "recounting events prior to the event." Does that change you thoughts, Regan?"

When I've had to do it, I've stuck with A: smaller passages in that tense or B: sentence constructions that required too many "I had" and "I'd"'s.

Capitalization:

What about mom/Mom; dad/Dad?
My mom/mother handed me the milk... would not be capitalized but, Mom handed me the milk, or, "Mom, hand me the milk," would be, correct?


Elizabeth wrote: "
And while I'm on this little rant, if you follow the CMOS advice, God, the Pope, and the Bible aren't supposed to be capitalized either. "

What, seriously? Well, not to disagree with CMOS but...I say it depends on whether or not the /narrator/ would capitalize.

Gene wrote: "When I've had to do it, I've stuck with A: smaller passages in that ..."

You mean sentence construction that /didn't/ require too many, right?

Layla Messner wrote: "Gene - I am in 1st person, "recounting events prior to the event." Does that change you thoughts, Regan?"

You know, the more I think about this...

In Immortal, the first and second parts of the book are told in past tense, and there are five chapters that are flashbacks to earlier historical events. In other words, most of the book takes place "now", while some of the stories my narrator Adam tells involve events that took place well before "now". I set up the historical period in the first part of the chapter to make it clear this was, say, Khufu's Egypt or 1920's Chicago... and then I went along in past tense. No "I had said..." construction. Because I segregated the sections into separate chapters rather than interrupt the "now" narrative to discuss it, there was no need to add a layer of past tense to it. It worked fine.

Gene - I've got a little bit of that too. But the passages I'm mentioning are when, from within "current" action, the narrator is telling what happened earlier.

Layla Messner wrote: "Gene - I've got a little bit of that too. But the passages I'm mentioning are when, from within "current" action, the narrator is telling what happened earlier."

Yeah, then you're stuck with it. I'd avoid constructions that use it overmuch, then. Rather than "What I'd learned by punching him in the face was..." try "My mistake: punching him in the face..."

Layla, you are correct about the mom/Mom example you gave earlier.

On using the past perfect tense, I think it's fine to use sparingly, as it can very effectively let you know in which order things happened. But it can get confusing if it goes on too long. I just struggled with this in one of my chapters, which starts by recounting an event and then goes back and has a paragraph describing what happened earlier that day. As long as you preface it with context (e.g., "Earlier that day,"), you can use past tense, but if you just want to mention one or two things, you can use past perfect. See http://web2.uvcs.uvic.ca/elc/studyzon... for a nice explanation and examples.

Which reminds me, it's time for another tip of the day.

Using "e.g." and "i.e."

The Latin abbreviation "e.g." is synonymous with "for example" or "such as," whereas "i.e." is synonymous with "that is." Best practice is to use the English equivalent, but if you do use the Latin abbreviation, be sure to use a comma after the second period.

For example:

Wrong: He bought many items, i.e. hammers, shovels, and saws.

Right: He bought many items, e.g., hammers, shovels, and saws.

Right: He bought many items, such as hammers, shovels, and saws.

Right: She bought the whole store, i.e., she bought a great many items.

Anja wrote: "Prince Gavin *swoon* hahah I know I'm good for nothing on this thread lol"
My thoughts exactly!

All right, grammar guru's, I've got a question. When using the conjunction "as" when do you use a comma?

Ex.
“I have no idea, but the sun is now heading west,” he said as he settled me back in my spot.

I don't want to put a comma after the word "said" because it stops the flow of the thought, and he's speaking and moving at the same time, but, from everything I've read, it seems that because they are two independent statements that can stand on there own you MUST put a comma there.

Can I PLEASE just leave the freaking comma out, or will literary circles worldwide shun me forever?

Hey Chi,

I don't think the "he said...spot," phrase without a comma is incorrect, but I think it might sound better like this:

"he said, settling me back to my spot."

Another ex: I watered my garden as I thought of home.

"I watered my garden, thinking of home."

To be honest, I think a lack of a comma can be just as distracting as the presence of one.

Also, quick grammar rule: When you have two independent sentences strung together, using a comma to separate them is incorrect and is known as a "comma splice." If you have two independent sentences that are related, a semi-colon is the correct punctuation.

A comma is only used to connect a dependent sentence to an independent one, like your sentence above.

"as he settled me back in my spot," is dependent on the first sentence and cannot stand alone.

Hope this helped!

Catherine in her there/they're /their post uses the example: "Everyone has their favorite..." This is wrong, everyone is a singular subject so the correct version of this sentence would be "Everyone has his/her favorite..." It's one of the most common mistakes I see when proofing or editing documents. It's also a mistake even I sometimes still make. Just try to be aware of it.

Yaaay! Ray, you rock! I'm typing during lunch and just threw it out there and didn't proof! :-)

What I love is that you've given me a new direction on my dependency for the word as! Now I'm going to scour my WIP and switch some things around... BTW, I'm seriously comma challenged, I'm learning, but to be honest I never had any education in grammar, and I have a masters degree (still am flummoxed by that fact).

Thanks so much my minion loving buddy!

Regan's right: you don't need the comma there. Yes, they are two independent clauses, but because they're short and closely related, the comma isn't needed.

There's a similar rule with "because". It's a somewhat subjective rule, but if you feel that the first clause really depends on the clause that comes after "because", you leave off the comma.

"I was happy because he was happy."

This indicates that the only reason I was happy was because he was happy. But:

"I was happy, because I knew that after this, life was never going to be the same."

In this case, the connection isn't quite as strong...I'm saying that I'm happy, and I'm adding some color as to why I'm happy instead of showing a strong cause and effect. You could replace "because" with "and" in this sentence, whereas with the first one, "and" wouldn't convey the same meaning. Note that you *could* leave off the comma in this second example, but I like the flow better with it...I'm saying I'm happy, brief pause, and then adding more color.

Grammar, especially when it comes to commas, is part logic, part black art. Here's what the CMoS (14th edition) says:

"The comma, perhaps the most versatile of the punctuation marks, indicates the smallest interruption in continuity of thought or sentence structure. There are a few rules governing its use that have become almost obligatory. Aside from these, the use of the comma is mainly a matter of good judgment, with ease of reading the end in view."

And therein lies the problem. I might trip on a sentence that doesn't have a comma where I'd expect to find one, whereas others might read it with no problem at all. It's the difference between what they call "close punctuation" and "open punctuation" and is mostly a matter of stylistic preference, especially when writing fiction. CMoS gives this example:

Close punctuation:
"Babs had gone to Naples with Guido, and when Baxter found out about it, he flew into a rage."

Open punctuation:
"Babs had gone to Naples with Guido, and when Baxter found out about it he flew into a rage."

OR EVEN:
"Babs had gone to Naples with Guido and when Baxter found out about it he flew into a rage."

The last example makes me queasy and would make me trip a bit, but the meaning is still clear. So you can tell those literary circles that they can go shove it up their comma. :)