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Koran Burnings
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Sandy, Matthew 11:29 "Take my yoke upon you…"
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Sep 09, 2010 06:14PM
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When I heard about the Koran burnings being planned/taking place, my first reaction was something like, "YES!!! FIRE-FIRE-FIRE!!! LET'S TURN THAT CRAP TO CHARCOAL - AND FAST!!!"
This is actually further evidence of my own stupidity. Burning a Koran is NOT a good idea, for several reasons.
• For one thing, an act like this could be the cause of murders on the other side of the world - something we do here can cost the lives of our soldiers.
• And actually, burning the Koran itself would seem to validate Muslim beliefs. They view the physical presence of the Koran to be holy; from the world's point of view, they respect it more than we respect the Bible. While Muslims don't worship the Koran as their god, the actual paper on which it's printed is believed to be sacred. Now, as Christians we know that isn't true. But destroying the Koran itself sends the message, "Yes, this IS a holy item, definitely worth our time to burn." As a man in our church said last night, the greatest disdain you can have for something is simply not to care.
• It would be very practical to get rid of as many Korans as we can - I mean, this book leads so many people astray, and the less the better, right? But that is not what we are called to do. Islam is spread this way - they believe allah wants them to burn Bibles, spread their religion, and even kill. Christianity, however, is spread by God's power and love. We should not be responding to a misled people like this.
God tells us that vengeance is His. And ultimately, the grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God shall stand forever. Isaiah 40:8
I totally agree, Sandy! It's a prickly issue, but I think it would be a bad witness to do something like that.
Mod
If that's true, that's horrible. Shame on us Christians.
But I agree with you. It would certainly be nice if there were no Korans left in the world, but it's not up to us to personally get rid of them.
Koran burning sends the message of hatred - something that is completely contrary to God's love.
If God wanted to annihilate all the Korans He could do it without our help.
Mod
Actually, most of the reason Muslims respect the Koran more than we respect the Bible is that they sort of idolize it. I mean, I believe the Bible is the word of God, but I don't think the physical book is holy.
Mod
But I think it might also have to do with the fact that so many 'Christians' disregard the Bible and don't think it's 100% accurate.
Of course, I'm not sure how Muslims can think the Koran is 100% accurate when there are errors and contradictions galore. Maybe they just don't know what's in it....?
Mod
I know, really. And Muhammed (sp?) wasn't even sure himself if it was a revelation from God or Satan! My dad actually bought a Koran to understand their beliefs better - btw if that sounds kind of bad, it's because he was going to be talking about the flaws and inconsistencies in Islam for a Sunday school talk. :) But anyway, I had never actually touched one of those things before, and I flipped through it for a minute. I was struck by the contrast between a Christian and Muslim's view of nonbelievers. We reach out to others because Christ is the answer, and anyone else is lost without Him - we're called to love our enemies. But in Islam, the nonbelievers are repeatedly called fools! There is no great commission. Allah just wants everyone to follow him and get rid of people who don't accept it.
And this is a different point, but I have to say, it felt horrible to even open that book. I mean, I know I wasn't expecting to suddenly believe it, but it's chilling to know how many people die for those very lies. :'(
Mod
"Yeah, the people who only believe a bit of what the Bible teaches, but not because the Bible teaches it. They don't make us look so good."
AMEN! I wish they wouldn't call themselves Christians at all! Pick something else.
"I know, really. And Muhammed (sp?) wasn't even sure himself if it was a revelation from God or Satan! My dad actually bought a Koran to..."
No, I get that, I was actually thinking about getting one so I could more intelligently argue the people who say 'it's a religion of peace' and all that other garbage.
My pastor is reading it, too.
This is an AMAZING website:
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
It outlines everything that is wrong and contradictory in the Koran, and with all the lies you hear about Islam being about peace and stuff.
And it's got a direct link to the Koran - There are a few 'versions' or whatever they're called.
Here's a few things I found particularly interesting:
*You hear alot of people saying 'Islam' means 'peace'. This is a blatant lie. I forget the actual word for peace (it's on the website), but 'Islam' actually means (Arg, I can't find the exact translation at the moment - it's on the website though), it means conquest or something along those lines.
*Allah is not actually 'God', It was an ancient pagan moon god.
*Mohammad tells 'good muslims' that they are supposed to read the Bible, and if they don't accept it, they are wrong(I'm sure I'm being rather nice with that word, it's probably more like 'infidels' or something), Yet he constantly contradicts the Bible.
*He doesn't even care about his own believers. There's a passage that says something like he rejoices in the ones who are cursed(eternally).
*He claimed to be a prophet, but never gave any prophecies.
There were so many things like this, I can't remember them all. But it's an excellent website.
"it's chilling to know how many people die for those very lies. :'( "
No kidding! Our instincts are to hate those people(the terrorists), but really we should feel sorry for them.
Mod
"The word "Islam" does not mean "peace." Muslims who tell you that the word “Islam” means “peace” are lying to you. The word "Islam" is an Arabic word. The word for peace in Arabic is “solh,” and not Islam. Islam is derived from the root word “taslim,” which means submission or surrender."
Oh, yeah, and Islam also says that it's fine and dandy - good even - to treat women like dirt.
Doesn't that sound peaceful?
Mod
That's a really helpful website! I've heard some of that stuff before, but I didn't know Mohammad never gave any prophecies. Wow. How do you read the Bible as part of that kind of religion???
That's ridiculous. How does the media continually perpetuate such an easy-to-disprove lie about what Islam means? And I've heard about how women are treated. It makes me wonder how women are attracted to convert to the religion.
Mod
I agree, its probably better to not waste money on it, that's why I didn't get it. But its probably true that it doesn't make much difference if we do or don't, though, satan will continue to make it available regardless.
Yeah, apparently he gave exactly one in his whole life about how one day rome(I think) would one day be victorious in a battle. Absolutely no specifics given.
I don't really count that as a prophecy, more like a vague guess.
I wondered that about the Bible, too. It completely contradicts the whole religion. But in mohommads twisted logic, the men who wrote the Bible were prophets of God as was Christ(not God, like Christ repeatedly said he was), and are to be obeyed just like he is by good muslims.
Even though somewhere else in the koran he says to kill the believers of the Bible. ???
it doesn't make any sense, and I have to wonder if these very devout muslims are even completely aware of what is in their holy book.
did you get to the part about the white raisins? Lol
Yes, its very easy to disprove by anyone who cares to look too close. Unfortunately satan is good at blinding people. And people are lazy alot of times and don't feel like looking into thse things for themselves, they just take the word of the muslims, a religion that has shown again and again that they hate us. Because you know, we can't discriminate or anything. *rolls eyes*
I think its really interesting though that some of those same people are the first to 'point out' all the 'errors' in the Bible and all the places where it supposedly condones things like murder and rape.
its completely backwards- the koran is the book that does that.it brings to mind the verse that says that in the last days men will call evil, good and good, evil.
Oh, what they do the women over there makes me sick. They treat their animals with more value. There was just a heartbreaking story in some magazine a few months ago about one woman who tried to escape her extremely abusive husband and inlaws. I wont go into the details, but it was pretty horrific. And stuff like that happens all the time.its so sad.
I doubt there are many- if any at all- women who are born into that kind of society, that would actually chose to convert. Its just the ones who have been born in america and other countries where women are valued as people, and who don't have the brains to do their homework.
Im in the church nursery at the moment, but I will watch that video when I get home.
Mod
Amazing video. God can use someone like this SO much. I went to school with a guy who had converted from Mormonism to Christianity. He had such a great testimony.
It's a perfect example of what God says about how those who seek Him will find Him. If only there were more people who would learn to think for themselves and examine their religion.
Of course, I'm not really all for the whole charismatic dancing in the pews type thing...but if it got her out of Islam, Praise God.
I also love the part at the end where she says real Christians don't have to worry about anything. So true.
Amen! U guys are really impressing me with your knowledge about this stuff...and I totally agree. It's kind of sad if u think abt it.
Mod
I didn't know much about it, specifically, until I got into some of these debates on here.
I wanted to know what I was talking about. That website I posted earlier is excellent for that. That way no one can say you're just being ignorant or prejudice or whatever.
Disclaimer: I am a very blunt person and mean no offense to anyone, but I am going to be honest IMO of things.First off, there are at least a dozen inaccuracies in the posts here about Islam and I don't believe you should really be attacking something you are not familiar with. Just to name one, the Qu'ran actually does not demean women at all. There are numerous instances of places where women were revered, especially in the life of Mohammad. The reason women in Middle Eastern Muslim countries are in the horrible situation they are in now is because the original religion has been warped and twisted for the political use of those in power in those countries, just the same as terrorists manipulate the religion and turn it into an extremist cult for their own purposes. And Christianity has had numerous people do the same thing with the Bible so we as Christians are not exempt.
Anyways, while I could go on a rant twice as long as that over numerous inaccuracies in these posts, I believe it is counterproductive. The main point being, God calls us to love everyone and not to judge. It is not my place to attack others and their way of life. It is instead my job to show them love in any way I can. I do not believe that burning the Qu'ran and attacking people's beliefs is evidence of Christ's love. I live in Gainesville, Fl where the crazy Qu'ran burning pastor has stationed his crusade and I have seen firsthand how destructive and hurtful it is towards the significant population of Muslims that live there. These Muslims are some of the most peaceful and compassionate people I have met and I have a great deal of respect for them and how they have reacted to such an affront and attack of hate with dignity. If only we as Christians could maintain such composure when people question us about our beliefs. I am ashamed of the people associated with that pastor that call themselves Christians. Jesus would not have protested mosques with signs filled with fragrant hate speech. It is not my place to judge Muslims and tell them they are wrong, it is my place to show them the love of Christ and open that doorway for God to convict them on His own. As such, it serves no purpose to debate the finer points of Islam and to attack it. Instead, we should focus on our own growth in Christ and become greater people through our own development.
Mod
First off, there are at least a dozen inaccuracies in the posts here about Islam and ..."
I suggest you go to that website in post #8 if you really think that about Islam. It's all backed up with 'scripture' from the Quran.
And yes, it certainly does demean women:
"Most individual Muslims may respect and honor women, but Islam doesn't! Several words Muhammad uses in his dishonorable Qur'an to describe women should be an "eye opener". The words “naghess al aghl” literally means defected witted person. It describes the intellectual capability of women in general. And the word “zaeefeh”, refers directly to female gender in contrast to men in ain a condescending way. It means “the weaker one” . Muhammad's Allah command this: “Give them their dowry for the enjoyment you have had of them as a duty” (Koran 4.24). In other words, a Muslim husband should live with his wife to satisfy his own need and pleasure. It is clearly understood in Islam, that if a woman disobeys her husband, it is usually necessary for her husband to stop having sex with her (temporarily) and for him to teach her "a lesson" by some form of physical punishment."
(taken from the mentioned website)
All you have to do to see how true that is, is to open your eyes and see the scores of abused women living in those Muslim countries. Not saying all men are this way over there, but some of them treat their wives like dirt - worse really. They do things like pour acid on them, mutilate them, and kill them on a whim. And it's completely acceptable via Sharia law.
Islam has nothing to do with peace. The Muslims who claim to be promoting peace in the name of their religion are the ones who do not know their religion very well. Either that or they are lying. The terrorists are the ones following what the Quran actually says.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with what the religion is actually about before you go defending it.(and not via word of mouth - study it yourself)
Really all you have to do to know about a religion is to look at it's leader. Mohammad was a murderer and rapist. That doesn't really suggest that his religion would revere women or promote peace.
As I said on the last post, we are to love the sinner, hate the sin. My comments are not directed at the people but the religion.
And I'm not saying that all 'Christians' are perfect and always right. We're all sinners and quite frankly most people claiming to be Christians aren't really.
I suggest you reread the last paragraph of my post and how no matter what you may believe or have to say about Islam, attacking it and demeaning the people who practice it is completely counterproductive to the work of Jesus Christ. Your time is better spent spreading love to EVERYONE, regardless of their religious affiliation.
Mod
Our job as Christians is not just to spread 'love'. Yes, we are to tell others of the Gospel, which is a message of love and we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. But we are also to take a stand against evil, not just accept everything that comes along.
Jesus Christ certainly took a stand and we are to follow him if we claim to be Christians. He was not politically correct. He made the religious leaders angry quite regularly.
If you'll look back to what I said before, I do not believe the Quran burnings are the way to go, but we do need to stand against Islam.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"
It is possible to love the person and disagree with what they believe.
Kristen wrote: "I read your post very carefully. I did not demean anyone or attack anything. I merely stated the truth. Our job as Christians is not just to spread 'love'. Yes, we are to tell others of the Gospel..."
jesus did take a stand. And it is our duty to fufill his commandments and word. So i have to agree.
True. Jesus did take a stand against what he believed was wrong, but he did it through love, not by attacking those with whom he disagreed. I believe Christians have such a bad rap for all the people who take it too far and act hatefully that it is even more important for us to be loving, especially to those with whom we disagree. Love is the first step toward establishing a relationship with others as people and then through this relationship we can establish a dialogue and share God's word and He can open the hearts and minds of others. I hardcore believe this to be a much more effective method of witnessing than just telling people that they are wrong.Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (ESV translation of Matthew 28:19)
*There are many words in the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts of the Bible that have no modern correlation in English. An important one is found in this verse. The word used in the original Aramaic text of this verse is translated as 'go' when it means something much closer to 'as you go.' To me, this makes all the difference. I take this to mean that God calls us to live Holy lives and it is by our living of just and Holy lives that we will bear witness to others. They will see the comfort provided by Christ and His power and will want the kind of life we have without us having to shove it down their throats, like I have seen many do. This is the stance I believe God would have us take toward others, specifically Muslims in this day and age; to love them for the people they are while respectfully disagreeing with their beliefs. Even Muslims respect the work and word of Jesus Christ and believe in the same God we do. Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Christians and Muslims believe in the same Bible stores, but just have different takes on some of them. I believe we should use this as a starting point. Once we develop relationships with others and they realize that, like Jesus, we care for them as fellow human beings and not just as a 'conversion project' our witness is made exponentially stronger and the likelihood of God reaching them is also stronger.
Mod
However we are to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you" 2 Cor. 6:17
Jesus' ministry was, yes, to tell the world of his love, but he also spent quite alot of time condemning false doctrines and beliefs. Which is why he was crucified. He wasn't merely preaching 'love'. It probably didn't seem too loving to those watching when Jesus overturned the tables in the temple. He had righteous anger. He was making a very 'loud' statement, condemning what was going on. And I'm sure the Pharisees did not consider it very loving when he called them hypocrites and said they were going to Hell. Yet, He did.
You are implying that all that is necessary is love, which in a way is true, but our actions and words may not always seem 'loving' to the world.
Satan leads people astray through things like Islam, and we need to reject these false teachings. We need to speak the truth in love(Eph. 4:15)
I agree, we do need to show love to everyone, but we also need to stand firm to what the Bible says. And it condemns the entire message of Islam, which as I pointed out before, has nothing to do with peace.
"Even Muslims respect the work and word of Jesus Christ and believe in the same God we do. Muslims believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Christians and Muslims believe in the same Bible stores, but just have different takes on some of..."
I'm not speaking of any individuals here. I'm talking about what it says in the Quran - which is the entire basis for Islam, yes?
Islam does NOT believe in the same God of Christianity. Islam is about Allah - a false, pagan God. This is not the God of Abraham. The ones who believe that it is one and the same, are confused.(again I say, look at that website - it's explained nicely)
Muslims as a whole may acknowledge that Jesus lived but they reject that he was anything more than a prophet or a good person, if that.(It's actually hard to really back that up with the Quran b/c it contradicts itself about Jesus).
That's no different from saying you believe God exists. Just because you believe He's real, does not give you salvation.
And having a "different take" on a Bible story, makes it a different story.
Again, as the Bible says we are to love our neighbors as ourselves. But that does not mean we have to accept everything an everyone as they are. God is not a 'come as you are' God. He loves every single person, yes. But to come to Him, we have to do it on His terms, not our own.
God is exactly a 'come as you are' God. He takes us as we are, as sinners and broken. He takes us however we are and however we come to Him. It is only through Him that we are able to accomplish more beyond ourselves.
Mod
Where exactly does the Bible say "come as you are"?
I'm not saying that we cannot come to God as sinners - because if that were the case, none of us would be able to. But we cannot receive salvation on our own terms(as we are), we need to change ourselves and our lives to qualify. There is only one way to God - His way.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Who is the author of that website? Someone obviously put a lot of effort into it, but unfortunately at least 75% of the information up there about Islam and the Qu'ran is wrong. I would suggest that if you are that intent upon attacking the religion on the basis on the Qu'ran, you read the actual Qu'ran instead of some rewording of it that someone posted online. Michelle Campos is the professor of Middle Eastern studies at UF and fluent in Arabic. If you get the chance, her translations are very accurate and will give you a better idea of what you are so strongly against.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10We are all sinners and unclean, God takes us as such as purifies us to be worthy of Him. We can only change ourselves AFTER we come to Him. He is the one who changes us. Therefore, we must bring everything to Him, all of us, all of our sins and faults and let him transform us according to his will.
(I John 4:11) 11 Beloved, if God loved us in this way, we also ought to love one another.
(I John 2:9) 9 He who says he is in the light and hates his brother, is in the darkness even until now.
(I Peter 4:8) 8 And above all things be earnest in your love among yourselves, for love covers a multitude of sins.
(I John 4:20-21) 20 If a man says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn’t love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 This commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should also love his brother.
I would pray that you go to a Bible based church with a good, God fearing leader and that you can consult him/her with this issue.
Mod
It's interesting that "75% of the information up there about Islam and the Qu'ran is wrong." When it's all supported with direct links to the Quran itself.
Silly me, I thought the basis for Islam was the Quran...
And if that's true, then I would like to see what exactly the terrorists were "misinterpreting" when they crashed the planes into the twin towers. I would ask for where the Quran contradicts what they did, but honestly there are so many places it contradicts itself, it would be a waste of time/effort. If it's in the book, it's part of the religion. Just because someone acts out what the book says, does not mean they are acting contrary to the religion, it just means they truly believe what they say.
Mod
I'm really not sure what point you are trying to prove here. I never said I was perfect or that Christians were. I said the opposite actually. And I also said we are to love everyone. I suggest you go back and read what I actually said.
Just because I have a strong conviction against something as damaging as Islam, I'm wrong??? Tell that to Jesus one day. As I pointed out before, He quite adamantly refuted wrong doctrines. It's interesting that you haven't commented on any of that...
"I would pray that you go to a Bible based church with a good, God fearing leader and that you can consult him/her with this issue."
I found this particularly funny.
Firstly, you know nothing about me.
Second, I've been in strong Bible believing churches since I was born. I have a very strong Bible background, including 5 years at a very doctrinally sound, strict Bible college, where one of my minors was Bible.
Third, my brother is a pastor. Among the many others that I know personally.
I'm not bragging, I'm simply saying, do not assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I know very well what the Bible does and does not say - I've been memorizing it since I was old enough to understand the words.
...uh, you guys. MY BRAIN AIN'T GONNA READ ALL THAT SO IM GONNA SAY I HEART CHOCOLATE CHIP COOKIES!
First, I never said anything about you personally. Second, good for you; I wish everyone could say that. Third, that is good for your brother. I would pray that God provides for him and keeps him strong in His word and faith. I am not disputing with you what the Bible says. I am pointing out that what that website says about the Qu'ran is untrue. But anyways I repeat the same conclusion I have already said to you. Arguing with you about things you don't want to hear the truth about is pointless and my time is better spent on other ventures so I am dropping this and moving on to other things. I will pray that God shows you His will and that you are able to live a life for Him however He desires.
...STOP ARGUING! Your giving me a headache.
Then stop reading it :p, no one is forcing you to
Mod
lol
Mod
"I would pray that you go to a Bible based church with a good, God fearing leader and that you can consult him/her with this issue."
My post was in answer to this. It sounds as if you are implying that I have no idea what I'm talking about. Which is not true.
"I am pointing out that what that website says about the Qu'ran is untrue."
I'm failing to understand how that is the case when,as I said, there are direct links to the Quran. Various translations aren't going to be that different. And as I've said a few times, you only need to look at the 'fruit' and basis of a religion to tell if it's good or bad.
But yes, it's basically a waste of both our time trying to convince the other.
YES!!! Exactly...you've both proven your point about a thousand times..it really is no use. SO SHUT UP AND EAT PIG!
Just frustrated but hey...*holds up bacon* this pig is GOOD!
Sorry, I just have a sensitive spot towards people who spread hate, especially those who supposedly do it in the name of God. We get the crazy preachers on campus all the time who spout lies and BS and start all kinds of insanity. Just youtube Brother Micah for some entertainment.
I highly doubt Kristen is a hater, just an expresser of views just like you.
Mod
If I was calling people names, that'd be another thing.
Chris wrote: "never said she was"You implied it.
You know what happens when one assumes...
Mod
This is really what we're spending our time doing?
Look, implying and assuming are totally different. Implying means to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated. Assume means to to take for granted or without proof; suppose; postulate; posit.You quote on quote said: "Sorry, I just have a sensitive spot towards people who spread hate, especially those who supposedly do it in the name of God." You were talking to her. You were debating with Kristen, right? And you don't randomly just put that out there. You said it to implythat she was spreading hate in the name of God.
Mod
We've only spend this much time discussing this because of what you said to start it out, so yes, I suppose it is.
I'm sorry that to you, standing up for my beliefs come across as 'hateful'. I do not mean to be. I never demeaned anyone or insulted anyone. I merely said that some things are not ok and pointed out some of the obvious errors in Islam. There is no hate in that.
You need to learn to distinguish between taking a stand and hate speech. One is the act of Christianity, one is not.
I appreciate luhvBOOKS sticking up for me and seeing the difference. To be honest your question comes across as defensive and like you don't want to back up what you've said. If you don't want to discuss it, don't attack people and call them hateful.
Thanks Kristen. Its been a pleasure. :)
