Save The Babies discussion

I have been asked to join the group so many times. This is why I am a part of it. I think Abortion should be kept legal, but I never would get one

I'm glad you join, so we can get both sides...

Why do you think abortion should be legal?

It is the women's right to chose what should happen to her body. Also a woman could die if she doesn't have the abortion. i have more facts if you need them

very good point, catherine. "oh no. i am going to be fat after i have a baby! *faints*"

You should put your baby up for adoption if you don't want it, and like Catherine said, if you arelike that, don't get pregnant. Um... Ishouldn't know about how you do... I'm not even 13...

abortion should stay legal. just b/c sumthin is illegal dont stop it. drugs r illegal but ppl still deal em & use em. if abortion is illegal then desperate women might go do sumthin tht would hurt them even worse. we just hv 2 convince ppl not 2 get pregnant when they dont want kids so it wont matter

right on! JJ, look at the topic I started.

I agree with the pro-choice person. Who should decide? The pregnant woman, that's who. Not some strangers who think they own the moral highground and feel compelled to save questionable women from their own bad judgment. The best way to curtail abortion is to make sure people have comprehensive sex education and access to contraception. Why don't you spend your time helping the thousands of unwanted and unloved children who are already born and in terrible situations, rather than trying to ensure more are born?

All you really need to do is take a look around the world. Look at the countries where abortion is illegal and look at the status and quality of life for women in those countries. Women and their bodies are basically owned by men. Then look at statistics of the numbers of women who still have abortions in places where it is illegal. The abortion rates do not change much, but what changes SIGNIFICANTLY is the rate at which women die or are permanently maimed from botched, illegal abortions. I have three children and I've never had an abortion, but I prefer to raise my children in an environment of choice and freedom, where women are not owned but are humans capable of making their own decisions that affect their life.

This is not to say I believe reproductive freedom should be unlimited. I think the Supreme Court has it right--abortions cannot be performed past the age of fetal viability unless the woman's life or health are severely threatened. Ninety percent of all abortions happen in the first trimester. Nearly all late-term abortions are due to severe health consequences for mother and/or child. These are heart-wrenching decisions to make and many women will choose to die themselves rather than terminate a life within. Once again, I think the only person who can make that decision is the pregnant woman. It seems pretty naive to think that women go out and have abortions simply because they are selfish and don't want to get fat. Most women WANT to have a child at some point, and abortion is a very heartwrenching and painful decision to make. They may not have the circumstances or be at a place in life where they feel ready to care for a child. Yes, I agree, they shouldn't have sex or should use contraception but sometimes contraception fails and sometimes there are circumstances that we cannot understand, but we haven't lived their life and it's not our place to be the judge of a complete stranger. Surely you would not want a complete stranger taking a quick look at your circumstances and deciding it's their place to make your most personal and life-altering decisions for you.

I was once just as pro-life as you until I really educated myself and saw firsthand some of the horrors of illegal, botched abortions and the consequences for unwanted and unloved children whose mothers had no choice. I just hope and pray that we never have to go back to those days.

I have to say something about you said. You say that there can be major health issues killing the mother. Well, there are doctors for that now! My dad is one of them. it's called parynatology. It's made for high-risk pregnancies. Most cases, almost all, can be taken care of and you have two healthy happy people, not one miserable one. If I had to, I would like to make that choice.

May I also point out that that baby is alive. And killing that technically means you just murdered a living person. Now, we are punished for killing born people, but do people care if an alive unborn dies? No. In fact, people say you should. Thus, they tell you to murder.

You know, in some religions, the baby isn't alive until it's born. Imagine how much easier it may be for the mother to get an abortion.

How can we convince those people?

Yeah.
You know how people are always praying for a cure for cancer, well my teacher says we made have had a person who could cure cancer, only that child's mother aborted it. It's horrible to think saving that one life could have saved millions!

I know. Just think, that child could have been the next Mozart or, as Drizzle said, cured disease. If you don't want the baby, then adopt it off. One of my parents was adopted when only a couple weeks old. If the parents decided to abort it, I wouldn't even be here talking to you right now.

Man..........

Yup....They do that in China.
If the woman has over two babes, and their not twins, the second one is aborted.
They do that cause China's a poor area, and can't raise enough food, for more people.....That's sad...

Yeah, at least it's better.

That's what our dad said!

Ok, I'm glad that the pro-choice people on here have spoken, but of course i must object:

Women who are at high risk, wouldn't have a healthy child, or just doesn't want one, should just not get pregnant! It's a simple solution.

Now, Unhealthy babies. Its sad, what if you only get them for a few years, before they're predicted to die?! It horrible! But to not have them at all? That will hurt your heart FAR more.

For unwanted babies, adoption is the logical choice. Do you KNOW how long the waiting list is, for adopting a child?! Its very long. You sometimes must wait months, and even years. And here, women are getting abortions left and right. Its sad.

And for women, doing an abortion will haunt you to your dying day. I've heard of many sad stories where a woman has had an abortion, and is heartbroken. Its called Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) and its real.

Wow.

Thats terrible

You talk as if all pregnancy-related complications have been eradicated. You couldn't be more wrong, especially when viewed from a global standpoint. Approximately one in 16 women in the developing world will die from pregnancy related conditions. One woman every minute dies from maternal death. Many more are permanently injured from botched abortions.

Some sobering statistics:

Unsafe abortion is a public health crisis on a global scale—A Women’s Pandemic
• 20 million unsafe abortions annually, 19 million occur in less developed regions
• The leading cause of pregnancy-related deaths and injuries in most developing nations
• Underlying cause of death from unsafe abortion is disdain for women

Ethiopia:
• The second leading cause of death for women of reproductive age, responsible for 55% of maternal mortality 1/5 of all hospital admissions
Kenya:
• More than 40% of Kenya’s maternal mortality rate is due to unsafe abortion
• 48.4% of the population are women aged 15-49; little access to vital health care clinics
Peru:
• Over 350,000 clandestine abortions are performed annually in Peru, resulting in one of the highest maternal mortality rates in Latin America
Uganda:
• 5,000 women annually are admitted into hospitals for incomplete abortions, with unsafe abortions causing approximately 1/3 of maternal deaths
Nepal:
• Loss of $100,000 per year in funding, forcing clinical staff layoffs, the discontinuation of mobile clinics to rural regions, and the silencing of NGOs supporting legalized abortion
• Of this country’s 27.1 million people, 59.1% are aged 24 or younger, but contraceptive prevalence (including natural and modern methods) is only 39.3%

In places where abortion is legal and accessible, it is one of the safest procedures in contemporary medicine, with a negligible risk of death. The vast majority, 97%, of unsafe abortions occur in the developing world

A policy that attempts to protect fetuses by denying the humanity of their mothers will inevitably fail. We must question such a policy’s true concern for the dignity of the fetus…

Sorry, but why are you talking about Ethiopia? They have more problems. The deaths from maternal complications is mainly in other countries. Even people who are poor can get help from our doctors. My dad is one and he says that they will help anyone, no matter how poor. The other countries can't do this.

No, you are wrong there. A woman does not give up "property rights" to her own body upon becoming pregnant. I have been pregnant three times and I would have been so pissed if someone told me I had to give over my body for the baby. A fetus is considered to be part of a woman's body until it becomes viable outside the womb. We are the owners of our bodies and we should be able to control what happens to it. We can pierce it, tattoo it, undergo plastic surgery, whatever. But no one else can do something to our bodies without our consent. Hence the fine for causing a miscarriage in a woman without her consent. If someone caused a traffic accident that resulted in my losing a limb, I would expect to be compensated for it.

We run into some real problems when we try to define life as beginning at conception and embryos as human beings with rights that trump those of the hosting body. Approximately 25% or more of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Are we to issue social security numbers and death certificates for all of these "children"? Can you imagine what the legal fallout from this would be? Women who unintentially cause a miscarriage by drinking too much coffee or exercising too much or falling down could be jailed for manslaughter. My sister had two miscarriages, one in her second trimester, which were very traumatic for her. A police investigation and interrogation in the death of her "children" would have seriously done her in.

When you become pregnant, it is your responsibility. The baby may be part of you, but it is one in itself. It's a thinking, breathing, heart beating child. A human been. You have children, do you not, Lara? You, who has had children should know this better than a 15 year old girl who has never experianced it.
To say that it is part of your body, and as so, you can cut it up and kill it, is rediculous. When's the last time you considered chopping off your arm, because they were a clumsy inconvenience while trying to hop or somthing? Or your nose because you hated the smell of your house? I'll bet you haven't in a while, if ever.

Okay I see the Pro-Life people's side but you can't always prevent a pregnancy

Most women that abort were raped.

Not true.
Sure in some cases, that is what happens, but not most of the time.
In the case of being raped, i can understand why they would not want the child, but after all, as i must have said a million times, Adoption IS an option.
A lot of the time, its women who stupid things, even when they KNOW that they wouldn't keep a baby.

ok. but making abortion illegal won't stop women from aborting. theywill use backstreet abortion which is deadly

Well, it has a heartbeat, yes. But embryos and fetuses do not think or breath on their own. Obviously, since I mentioned I've been pregnant three times and I have three children, abortion is not something I even considered. But I think we benefit by living in a society that values choice for women. The reason that I mentioned countries like Ethiopia, etc. is that I want to make a comparison of how good we have it here compared to societies that do not value women and do not allow them to make the most personal decisions that affect their lives, and to show the devastating effects that it has for them.

I have had this argument many times with my very pro-life mother, and most of the time we have to agree to disagree, but I think I have at least convinced her that abortion is not murder (she thinks it's okay in cases of rape or incest or threat to the mother's life). And also that there is a hierarchy to human life, ergo, an embryo does not equal a human. I told her to imagine she is in a burning building about to collapse. She has just enough time to grab one thing and escape. On one side of the room is a petri dish with 50 live human embryos. On the other side is a scared, crying three-year-old girl. Which will she save? Obviously, as a good Christian woman she will save the many children over the one, right? She chooses to save the little girl, and can't even explain why. But I told her it's because even she knows deep down that the life of a living, breathing child capable of suffering and fear is infinitely more important than a dish of potential human lives.

My ten-year-old daughter has listened to our arguments and she considers herself to be staunchly pro-choice. She can't understand why other girls and women would work so hard to take away the rights that women have worked so hard to win over the years. She told me that if I became pregnant and my life was at risk due to the pregnancy, she would want me to have an abortion. She said, "You could always have another pregnancy, but I couldn't get another mom."

I understand that you all seem like very compassionate and caring young women concerned for the life of the unborn. But it just makes me sad to see your efforts directed in this way. There are so many children in this world that could use your help. Over 800 million people in this world are currently starving or malnourished, a majority of which are women and children. That number promises to grow by the tens of millions with rising food and energy costs, population growth, increasing disparity between the have and have-nots, climate change, etc. Please consider their case as you decide where to place your activist energy in the next few years.

Yes. Excatly. It's deadly. Who would risk death, just to kill their kid? Even if I was pro-choice, I seriously don't think I would. All those parents who have kids who have gotten pregnant, wouldn't force their kids to abort, half as much. When a kid gets pregnant, its not an easy thing to keep secret. And when other people know about it, they could turn the parents and kid in for doing the abortion. Plus, would you, as a parent, force your kid into an abortion that might kill her? Doubt it.
And even if illegalizing it only helps a little, thats still worth it.

Lara, I see that you are very feminist on this issue, and you totally and completely believe that a woman has a choice. I have no problem with that, because really, we all are feminist about something, and I see what you believe in and why. Some of it seems logical, but then agian, some of it doesn't. A woman doesn't want a child. For that theres adoption as a choice. Anything has GOT to be better than killing a kid. I mean, come on.
Now, when you are in a situation where you may die if you give birth, then i can understand why you would get an abortion. I wouldn't want my mom to die either. But You still shouldn't get an abortion. If you need surgery, and that surgery kills the baby, but not intentionally, then theres nothing to be done about it, but you shouldn't go out and get an abortion. But if you know your at risk for this, then the best option would be not to get pregenant at all, would it not?

A legal abortion isn't deadly though that is why we should keep it legal

Yes, but the point is that if it were illegal, it would become deadly, and then no one would want to do it.

Oh, and lara, the unborn baby inside of you when you become pregnant is alive. In fact, the heartbeat of an unborn baby begins on the 21st day after conception. At that point, it is completely alive.

Are you saying that it's good if more people die having abortions? It will teach everyone else a good lesson? That seems like pretty brutal logic to me. No one should have to die having an abortion, and nearly no one does in places where it is legal because the doctors are trained and know what they are doing. Bleeding to death from having your insides torn out is a terrible way to go and I would not wish that on anyone, much less a scared and frightened teenager who has never really had a chance to live her life.

Clare, most of the time you don't discover that your life or health is greatly at risk until well into the pregnancy. Imagine what a difficult decision it must be for the women who are greatly looking forward to having a child to have to make this decision? It can only be their decision to make. I would not want to be in their shoes because I honestly don't know what I would do--risk my life and leave my children motherless or just go through with it and hope for the best? But we only make things worse by judging people and calling them murderers. We have enough truly awful people in the world. Let's leave the moms alone and hope we don't ever end up in their place ourselves.

No. I did not indicate that it would be a good thing for even MORE human beings to be killed. I said that if it was deadly, who would do it? No one in their sane mind. I would hate it for someone to die, trying to do something as worthless and stupid as abortion. It would be unfair. But it is also unfair that these human beings are dying because we snobby people don't want to take care of them. I'm not talking about the ones who have no money or place to raise a kid, I'm talking about the ones who could, and don't want to because its too much resposibility, and it constricts their lives too much.
I would hate to become pregnant at my young age, and never would, but for those who would, I would feel bad for them if abortion became illegal, but I still think that they shouldn't use abortion as an excape. A last resort. As the way out of their problems. They would have to live with their mistake, and thats their fault. If they really don't want to become pregnant, they should prevent it at all costs. Not risk it just because they can say: "Hey, if I get pregnant, then I'll just get an abortion. Prolem solved."

it IS murder tho. its takin away a chance 2 live. how else do u explain murder? but legal abortions ARE safer. hopefully we can persuade ppl who dont want babies, not 2 get pregnant.

Lara, I understand what a difficult decision it is, but the fact of the matter is that it IS a decision. If you are unable to keep the child, there are alternatives.

plus, givin birth is a lot safer & less painful now w/ all the technology & medicine we hv. even birth mothers hv a lot more knowledge now than say...20 yrs ago.

I agree that legal abortions are safer, and perhaps they must stay if people are crazy enough and wanting to get rid of their kid so bad, that they're willing to do a deathly process to do it.
The thing is that we need to help convince people that this is wrong. This isn't something they should want.

I know I've already probably posted way too much here. But I just wanted to add one more story from an article that I read last year. It was about a family who was sueing their prenatal physician for "wrongful birth" of their 10-year-old son. The son was born with a condition that would make it impossible for him to ever develop beyond an infant capacity and would need round-the-clock care until the end of his life. The condition would have been picked up in normal prenatal tests but wasn't. The parents say they would have terminated the pregnancy had they known this information, as 90 percent of all women today choose to terminate when genetic malformations are discovered. The author wrote that it was clear the family loved their son--they rearranged their entire lives and lost their life savings to care for him. They talk about the day when he crawled across the room and they cheered as if he had won the Olympic gold. Yet they continue with the lawsuit to help pay for the son's care.

Then the author talked about how she and her husband were so excited a few years ago to learn of their pregnancy. However, prenatal testing revealed that the fetus had a very rare condition for which there was no treatment or cure. The child would lead a short and painful life, and they would have to stand by helplessly and watch. They researched everything they could on the disease and their options, but ultimately they decided that the most humane thing they could do was terminate the pregnancy before the window for termination expired.

I cried when I read the last line of the article. The author said something like the first family continues to love the son they wish they hadn't had just as I continue to mourn the child I don't regret terminating.

These are such very complicated moral and ethical decisions and sometimes there really is no right or wrong answer.... only the one that you can live with. I think it would be wrong to judge either of these families. They have done the best they could with the situation that was handed to them, and I don't know what I would do in their place. I only know that I would not want it to be up to the government or anyone I didn't know--it would be the decision that only I in concert with my husband, my physician, and God could make.

I see what you mean, but its worth it, no matter what, to have a chance at life. I have a cousin who has CF, which is a bad disease, with, so far, no complete cure. But I really have no idea what the rest of us would have done if he had been aborted. Bren is usually the life and soul of the party, and I haven't met anyone who doesn't think he's the best. Plus, I must add, he is one of the most active and is the most life filled kid ever. lol Brendans awesome! Glad he's my cuz! (but he'll probably kill me if he finds out i said this about him, haha, so mums the word ; ), Now I think I'll end my nice cousinly talk....)

Dear All,

The time that an unborn baby can survive outside the womb is getting earlier all the time. Right now, it is about 20 weeks, but it will get earlier. If the infant can survive outside the womb, how can anyone think of killing it?

Once the baby is conceived, it is another life. From that time on, there are TWO bodies (and minds), not just one. It is no longer just the woman's body. The infant has rights as a human too. That is what is wrong with the "this is my body, my choice" argument. There is no longer just ONE body!!! The woman has helped create "another" person!

Of course, there have been many cultures that have allowed their powerful to kill the weak, disabled and the unloved (Hitler and his murdered multitudes, the Greeks and their murdered infants etc...), but I think we are a civilized country that should NOT kill its innocents. They have rights TOO!!!

Colleen, mom to five

only too true!

Go MOM!

Clare ~ Yes, one of the five, and proud of it! : D

Wow, you're so right!

thts wat needed 2 be said. im glad someone was finally able to put it to words. thank you so much. ur very lucky to have a mom like tht clare.

Yes, medical technology will enable the fetus to be viable at an earlier time than in the past and that may affect the abortion question. Everyone keeps saying that at the moment of conception an embryo is now a fully fledged human with full human rights. Will any of you answer the question I posed to my mom? I want to know who would rescue the petri dish of 50 embryos and sacrifice the three-year-old child? Why or why not? That, more than anything else, reveals your true feelings about the status of a human embryo vs. a human being. Despite all my mom's rhetoric about saving babies and rights of the unborn, she would still choose to save one child over 50 "babies," 50 separate individuals with full human rights.....

Why?

Me, I would choose the child in a second, no question. I love my children fiercely and I am concerned for all children. But I'm really not concerned that a full quarter of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. That's sad for the people that wanted a baby, but I really don't feel a thing for the "child" that died.

If you wouldn't kill the aborted baby after it is born, why is ok to kill it just minutes before it is born. No one wants to see children suffering, but we don't just kill them to end their pain.
CC

It isn't okay to kill it minutes before it is born. Most states have late-term abortion bans. They are legal as long as they provide an exception for the mother's life or health. I couldn't just walk into a clinic at nine months pregnant and say, "I don't want this kid after all. Kill it." And what mother in her right mind would do such a thing anyway? Almost all late-term abortions occur for health reasons. Abortion on demand is only available to a certain point in the pregnancy, and yes, that point may shift in the future. It's quite possible that someday a fetus might be removed and kept alive at a very early stage in incubators until the point it can be adopted. I would imagine the adoptive parents would have to pay for its care though. I doubt taxpayers would want to foot the bill.

Pammy???? I'm just curious...if you think abortions should be kept legal...why wouldn't you have one?