THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

Three years. Plenty of actions. Great showdown of both tactical and strategic actions. And there was Rommel.

Anyway, I am currently looking for books that able to portray the events during this campaign, from the western warfare until Tunisia (a bit of Sicily won't hurt). My focus would be the execution of and relationship between operations as well as the overall strategy used by the parties involved.

I prefer a research-based book rather than a memoir.

Feel free to recommend. Thanks :)

Well, I'd highly recommend The Army at Dawn, alhtough it starts where the US comes in during Operation Torch, so it's hardly comprehensive for the entire North African campaign.

Hi George, thanks for the reply.

I was just referring this book in another discussion topic about the US Army.

Yeah I would certainly read the trilogy, but too bad the first book only covers since 1942 whereas the campaign started in 1940.

I came across this book just now, Desert War: The North African Campaign 1940-1943. Sounds in line to my liking.

There are a TON of books on this subject. There are good, comprehensive histories of the war in the Mediterrannean theatre by Carlo d'Este and Douglas Porch. Barrie Pitt's "Crucible of War" trilogy is good, too. Correlli Barnett's "The Desert Generals" is controversial but well written. "Desert War," the book you have above, is essentially a volume of wartime journalism by one of Britain's greatest war correspondents, Alan Moorehead. It's good for the atmosphere of the time and the experiences of the men.

Books on Tunisia: "Kasserine Pass," Martin Blumenson; "Crucible of Power," Kenneth Macksey;
"The Plain Cook and the Great Showman," Gregory Blaxland. There are several good biographies of Eisenhower, and autobiographies/memoirs by Patton
and Omar Bradley. For a hilarious soldier's view, see the memoirs of Spike Milligan.

The Alamein battles: "Alamein," John Latimer; "Alamein: Pendulum of War," John Barr; "Alamein," C.E. Lucas Phillips. You should also read the multivolume biography of Montgomery by Hamilton.

There is much more, but that's all I have time for now. Good luck.

There's a great old book, out of print now but you might be able to get it via bookfinder.com or a used bookstore, titled Alamein and the Desert War (I put it on my book list on Goodreads and scanned the cover, so you ought to be able to find it by searching the site.) It's a collection of essays and historical pieces by different people that does a great job of capturing the feel of the time and place, both the war itself and places like Cairo, both the events at the high command level and the lives of the ordinary soldiers on both sides. Lots of photos, too. I read it in high school, then reread it recently and liked it even better.

Years ago I read BODYGUARD OF LIES -- forgot the author's name -- which described how Brit Intelligence was superior to Rommel's, and that is what helped significantly turn the tide at El Alamein.

I haven't read many books about the subject, but there's a book I'm currently reading right now that I think might be great for understanding the German part of "the execution of and relationship between operations as well as the overall strategy".

It's called "Panzer Battles" written by Major General F.W. von Mellenthin. He was a staff officer of Rommel's Afrika Korps, and judging by his writing and tone, had had quite a deep and personal understanding of Rommel's strategy and etc.

For a book written by German officer, it's somewhat, from time to time, "cordially" critical of parts of Rommel's tactical decisions and strategies. That is to say that it's not very biased against the British forces. Also, It is, as the title suggests, a study of employment of armor, so it's not really a memoir per se. But, the author from time to time throws in his personal opinion and comments on some matters (not necessarily about "tactical" and "strategical" ones but rather about what was going on in Rommel's HQ and the flow of the entire war or the situation in the region) directly, and I think this gives it a little bit of a personal taste to the study, and not just dry chronicle or analysis.

It's really an excellent book about the North African campaign, but it also allocates substantial amount of pages to campaigns that came before and after the North African campaigns (i.e. Russian campaign). I think you won't really mind them because they're pretty relevant if you're looking at the German panzer forces.

Lastly, this is a nice book because majority of books written on the subject of North African campaign refers to this book at one point in their book or another. So, you will be reading a direct and resourceful account of what really happened (as well as a professional study).

Despite all this though, I must mention that this book is primarily about the "employment of armor" in North African campaign. It is true that armor is the most crucial and central component in desert warfare, the book nevertheless do not mention much about the other branches involved. Still, I believe that looking at the tactics and strategies employed by the armored forces will suffice in understanding the direct tactical and strategical flow of the campaign.

P.S. on the back flap of the book it says that the commander of the multinational forces during the Operation Desert Storm U.S. Army General Schawrzcoff (I'm not sure of the spelling) had this one his desk while he was leading the whole campaign, referring to it frequently to seek tactical advice.



Here's the link for the book:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15...

thanks everyone!
I tried to look for those above mentioned books in my country but cant find them. Will try someplace else then.

there is yet another book by cornelyas Ryan or paul caurell it is named the afrika corp or desert some thing. its a story which takes u from day one of german entry to the fall of tunis. well written.

Mansoor wrote: "there is yet another book by cornelyas Ryan or paul caurell it is named the afrika corp or desert some thing. its a story which takes u from day one of german entry to the fall of tunis. well writ..."

Hi Mansoor,

The book you are after by Paul Carrell is "Foxes of the Desert"

by Paul Carell

yes rick
thnx , i read it a long time ago... its good

Before you set off to read anything by Paul Carell, there are a few things you should know. The first is that his real name was Paul Karl Schmidt, and he was an SS propaganda officer as well as a dedicated Nazi. He was also complicit in the Holocaust, and denied that German soldiers committed atrocities against Soviet civilians during the 1941-45 war. He is not a credible source.
I have not read anything by Carell so I can't comment on the quality of his writing. His books might be very entertaining, but I wouldn't consider anything produced by an SS propaganda officer to be of objective historical value. I have strong feelings on the subject and personally would not soil my hands with material produced by this man.

Last night I started reading Kittyhawk Pilot.It was written by a fellow who lives about 200km from here. Edwards is a well known Canadian ace. There is some speculation that he may have even flown the Kittyhawk that was recently discovered in the Egyptian desert. I was lucky enough to pick up a copy of this book at our huge annual book sale. When I got it home I discovered that it had been signed by the author!

Excellent find John, tell us how the book goes.

If you enjoy that book this one might interest you as well:


by Bert Horden
Description:
A graphic illustration of the realities of the air war in the Western Desert, Shark Squadron Pilot describes Bert Horden's service with 112 'Shark' Squadron and the ground attack role of the 'Kittys'. With their garish shark's mouths painted on their aircraft 112 Squadron wreaked havoc on the German Afrika Korps inflicting terrible damage with machine gun fire on the soft skinned targets of truck convoys, and causing significant damage on the hard skinned Panzers with their under-slung bombs. Using his diary and flying log book to preserve the accuracy and immediacy of the events Bert Horden has written a superb and extremely graphic account of desert flying. Well illustrated throughout with over eighty previously unpublished photographs Shark Squadron Pilot is an important contribution to the recorded history of the Second World War

Here are two of my favourite books covering the campaign in North Africa:


by John Bierman
Description:
From the climactic battle of Alamein, where Allied forces handed the Nazis their first major defeat, to the remarkable story of László Almasy, who became the basis for the romantic English patient in Michael Ondaatje's novel, the story of this crucial WWII campaign is panoramic in scope and peopled by some of the most famous figures in the war. Drawing extensively on primary documentary sources and interviews with surviving veterans, award-winning journalists John Bierman and Colin Smith present a superb account of this extraordinary episode, remembered as a �war without hate� for the willingness by both sides to adhere to accepted notions of �fair play� and the mutual respect and camaraderie that evolved between the combatants. This riveting account is military history at its best

by Tim Clayton
Description:
"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." - Winston Churchill, November 10, 1942 Spring 1942. Throughout the world, the Allies retreat before the inexorable march of Fascism: Singapore falls to Japan; the Wehrmacht lays siege to Leningrad, captures the Crimea, and advances on Stalingrad; Greece and Yugoslavia fall to the Nazis; the American Pacific Fleet lies in ruins; and in Libya, Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps faces off against the British Eighth Army. Over the next twenty weeks, a series of battles fought in North Africa's Western Desert will become the pivot point of the Second World War.

In part, The End of the Beginning is the story of those battles: Rommel's surprise attack on the Gazala Line in May 1942, the fighting retreat of the British Eighth Army under General Sir Claude Auchinleck, and the fall of Tobruk after a siege lasting 240 days; the blockade of Malta and the Pedestal convoy that finally relieved the island; Auchinleck's brilliant last-ditch battle to hold Rommel at El Alamein, Rommel's final attacks at Alam Halfa Ridge, and then Montgomery's destruction of the Afrika Korps at the second battle of El Alamein in November.

But, like the best works of popular history, The End of the Beginning is more than a simple chronicle of battles won and lost, of the decisions of statesmen and generals. Its stories are told from the perspectives of the men and women who spent these pivotal months on the very tip of the Allied spear, with raw, personal experience documented on virtually every page: Peter Vaux, the intelligence officer of the British 7th Armoured Division, plotting the defeatof the Afrika Korps in a desert wadi named El Alamein; American merchant marine cadet Lonnie Dales sailing in the Pedestal convoy in an attempt to relieve Malta and, after his ship is sunk, volunteering to man the antiaircraft gun on the crippled oil tanker "Ohio;" Flight Lieutenant Ken Lee flying ground support missions by day, exploring the fleshpots of Alexandria by night; Alex Szima from Dayton, Ohio, one of Darby's original Rangers, joining the Canadians in the failed raid on Dieppe, and probably becoming the first American to kill a German during the war; Mimi Cortis, a Maltese nurse in one of the island's supply-starved hospitals.

These stories give an unmatched depth to the consequences of the disputes between Churchill and his senior commanders; the shuttle diplomacy between London, Washington, and Moscow by FDR confidant Harry Hopkins; the deep conflicts between Montgomery and his predecessors; and the extraordinary American intelligence blunder that betrayed the Eighth Army's plans to Rommel.

Showcasing the latest scholarship and the authors' own original research, packed with edge-of-the-seat first-person experiences, and intercut with the pace of popular fiction, The End of the Beginning is an extraordinary assessment of one of the most important campaigns of the Second World War.

Here's a review of by Jonathan Dimbleby

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ent...

Thanks for posting the review Geevee, I've been waiting for some more information on this book before making the decision to purchase a copy. Are you going to get a copy of the book?

Someone above mentioned Barrie Pitt's Crucible of War trilogy. I would recommend it highly. Also Michael Carver's two books Tobruk and Alamein.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Thanks for posting the review Geevee, I've been waiting for some more information on this book before making the decision to purchase a copy. Are you going to get a copy of the book?"

A library one for me Rick - interested to read though as my Grandad served in the 8th Army with 4th Indian Div and was at Ruweisat Ridge during Alamein.

Ryan wrote: "Someone above mentioned Barrie Pitt's Crucible of War trilogy. I would recommend it highly. Also Michael Carver's two books Tobruk and Alamein."

Thanks Ryan - I have Barrie Pitt's books but not read them yet. Have you looked at
by Alan Moorehead

I've just ordered a copy of this book; Into Dust and Fire which appears to offer something different:


by Rachel S. Cox
Description:
The untold story of five young American friends who left the ivory towers at Harvard and Dartmouth to take on the Nazi's…

In the spring of 1941, with Europe consumed by war and occupation, Britain stood alone against the Nazi menace. The United States remained wary of joining the costly and destructive conflict. But for five extraordinary young Americans, the global threat of fascism was too great to ignore.

Six months before Pearl Harbor, these courageous idealists left their promising futures behind to join the beleaguered British Army. Fighting as foreigners, they were shipped off to join the Desert Rats, the 7th Armored Division of the British Eighth Army, who were battling Field Marshal Rommel’s panzer division. The Yanks would lead anti-tank and machine-gun platoons into combat at the Second Battle of El Alamein, the twelve-day epic of tank warfare that would ultimately turn the tide for the Allies.

A fitting tribute to five men whose commitment to freedom transcended national boundaries, Into Dust and Fire is a gripping true tale of idealism, courage, camaraderie, sacrifice, and heroism.

Reviews:
“A multifaceted, moving story… extraordinary… terrific… A unique take on the war, from the point of view of the young, idealistic and foolhardy.” - Kirkus Reviews

“A moving, beautifully-written tale of five young Ivy Leaguers, romantics and idealists all, who left their privileged lives in peacetime America to join the British Army in its pre-Pearl Harbor struggle against the Nazis. In her quest to trace the wartime experiences of her uncle, Rob Cox, and his four colleagues, Rachel Cox has produced a masterpiece of storytelling, infused with romance, danger, adventure, humor, and heartbreaking loss. It is, hands down, the best description of the transformation of untested young men into soldiers that I have ever read.” - Lynne Olson, (author of Citizens of London and Troublesome Young Men)

“Rachel S. Cox's Into Dust and Fire is an inspired saga about a group of young Americans who hated Nazi totalitarianism to the core. Their rash bravery is the stuff of legend. This is an important new contribution to our growing World War II must-read library.” - Douglas Brinkley, (New York Times Bestselling Author of The Wilderness Warrior)

“Rachel Cox's book achieves a kind of miracle—bringing to startling life the story of five young Americans who volunteered to fight for Britain in North Africa while the United States was still sitting out the war behind the Atlantic Ocean. Cox is a vigorous, intelligent writer, and her book is a dramatic tale of war, love, hardship, suffering and loss.” - Thomas Powers, (Pulitzer Prize-Winning Author of The Killing of Crazy Horse)

“Into Dust and Fire is a beautifully-written book that evokes World War II in North Africa in a way that has rarely—if ever—been bettered. Touching, moving, and thought-provoking, this is a wonderful, exquisitely crafted book.” - James Holland, (author of The Battle of Britain)

“An elegantly-written story of five unheralded American heroes who left the security of their Ivy League schools to fight the war against Nazi Germany—before the rest of the nation joined the battle. Rachel Cox has written an inspiring, richly-documented historical account that captures the essence of American valor. Into Dust and Fire fills in an essential piece of World War II history that will last for the ages.” - Ken Gormley, (Dean and Professor of Law at Duquesne University)

Currently free on Amazon UK and Amazon.com Correlli Barnett's The Battle of El Alamein: Decision in the Desert http://amzn.to/1b1iCEM

Thanks for that information, I am sure a few members will take the offer up :)

Thanks, I have gotten a copy and will take a look at it soon.

Many thanks, got it.

Mcrmilhist wrote: "Currently free on Amazon UK and Amazon.com Correlli Barnett's The Battle of El Alamein: Decision in the Desert http://amzn.to/1b1iCEM"

Thanks. Just downloaded it. Regards Ian

Currently free ebook in the UK - The Battle of El Alamein: Fortress in the Sand

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Battle-El...

Thanks Mcrmilhist I am sure some members will check this out.

The Phantom Army of Alamein: How the Camouflage Unit and Operation Bertram Hoodwinked Rommel

Just finished this one recently. Good potential but a tad disappointing in some respects.

Sorry to hear your book; The Phantom Army of Alamein was not as good as it could have been. It's a shame when that happens eh!


by Rick Stroud

You may like my book The Star of Africa: The Story of Hans Marseille, which covers the air war from both German and Allied perspectives, and a very good story. In fact we have film interest in the book also.

I haven't read this yet but it is on my TBR list (of course!!!!)

by Patrick Delaforce

Synopsis

This well researched and well written book covers the early campaigns and battles that earned The Desert Rats their fame and name.This volume covers the difficult early years when ultimate victory was less than certain. The Nazis were victorious on many fronts and Britain stood alone. Indeed it was at El Alamein that 7 Armoured Division and the rest of Montgomery's Eighth Army turned the tide. The church bells rang out in Britain and a new spirit was born. But much fighting lay ahead and many were to die. The successful completion of the North African campaign led to the invasion of Sicily and the long slog up Italy.

The Desert Rats were at the forefront of these campaigns. Three Victoria Crosses were won in the desert and many famous names were associated with the Division, such as Field Marshal Lord Carver and Major General Pip Roberts.

The Division's story is told by many first hand contributions and is the result of painstaking research by the author who was also a 'Desert Rat'.

Delaforce's books are very good for personal quotes and stories Jill. I have read a number of his books and some very interesting encounters and actions are covered. A number of chaps keep popping up in his books and it's good to follow them as they progress through the war.

NB: don't look for strategic or wider detail though as that is not Mr Delaforce's area. He served with the Royal Artillery in the war.

Jill wrote: "I haven't read this yet but it is on my TBR list (of course!!!!)

by Patrick Delaforce

Synopsis

This well rese..."

It's on mine now also :)

Geevee wrote: "Delaforce's books are very good for personal quotes and stories Jill. I have read a number of his books and some very interesting encounters and actions are covered. A number of chaps keep poppin..."

Hmmmmmm, I am interested in the strategies and tactics of battle so maybe I wouldn't like it as well as I first thought. I'm still leaving it on the TBR list but not at the top. Thanks Geevee.

So this seems as good a place as any to drop this in. I am reading this book most one subsection at a time before I fall asleep. And it was amazing how much I seemed to have read this book before. And I am fairly certain that it isn't a book I have ever owned. Then I realized what it was.

Another book I read leans very strongly on the research in this one. In fact some of the passages seem to be verbatim. Since I am sure that Herr Irving wrote his book on Rommel after this one came out, it does beg a question.

First flush, the author is a tad judgmental of Rommel when he doesn't really need to be, but so far it is a pretty interesting read. Might have to see if I can find some of the books in the bibliography.

I've just posted reviews of "The Gods were Neutral" and "Brazen Chariots" by Robert Crisp, which I regard as two of the best WW2 memoirs, especially as regards armoured warfare. The second book gives a relentless day-by-day account of the author's experiences as a tank commander during the Operation Crusader battles to relieve Tobruk in late 1941. Highly recommended! http://www.amazon.com/Brazen-Chariots... and http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Neutral-Ro...

Good reviews Antoine, thanks for posting.

Brings me back to "The War Magician" which I thought at the time I read it to be one of the most intriguing I ever read on WWII. I was disappointed to hear of later criticism that the author Jasper Maskelyne exaggerated or fabricated most of the content. He takes credit for a lot of the misdirection "camouflage" at Second Alamein and a number of other circumstances in the Suez and Cairo area. He claims he had the Germans bombing an area that he made look like Alexandria with a model lighthouse, and that by shining lights on precious fuel tanks, the false shadow threw off the dive bombers. I know a man who quit flying lessons because on an approach he was horrified to realize what he thought were powerlines suddenly appeared to be a barbed wire fence, because prospectives into the sky and from the sky can get skewed due to lack of reference. I was very interested in Jaspers explanations for his camouflage of two freighters to appear as the British Capital ships damaged and evacuated for repair. The Royal Navy wanted to make it seem they still had battle potential in the area. After a while Jasper tried to persuade them to let the weathered canvas betray the camouflage. He said the Germans would realize the warships were not there but that it would mean they did not know their location, which would present a bigger problem. Very cunning, I thought.

One interesting fact of the desert war, and a chance to praise Monty for something, was the British habit of going after German recce vehicles, that would turn and run from the Brits consistently only to lead the "hounds to the chase" right across a German gun line. This seemed to keep happening until Monty showed up and stopped it. Another interesting fact is that the Italian army had a few excellent weapons: a heavy mortar and a 90mm anti-aircraft gun, the latter which Rommel quickly employed in anti-tank defense, the blistering fire often being credited to the German 88s.

Interesting information on the book The War Magician which I don't think I have heard about before. He sounds like an interesting man. Thanks for sharing those details Howard, I am sure a few group members will be checking this fellow and his book out :)

Well, if the facts are disputed in "The War Magician" then I would say it is the best novel about WWII I have ever read, and there is a separate thread for that.

Good point Howard. Their tanks were dreadful in the main too and training was often poor or even absent.

In many accounts I have read the Italian artillery is always seen as being effective and well trained with much courage being displayed too.

For many reasons the Italians' performance in WWII wasn't sound (example being the early Desert War where Wavell hammered them and took tens of thousands prisoner), but I think they are dismissed all to often as being just poor and cowardly troops.

Some units - artillery for example - and some divisions did fight well, such as the Ariete and Folgore who caused much trouble during El Alamein fighting long and hard with heavy casualties to show for this bravery.

When I lived in Italy I saw many war memorials for WWI but don't recall any for WWII. They fought hard in WWI and it was very bloody. In general the Italian people did not have their hearts in WWII.

They do have an Italian memorial/cemetary at Alamein. My brother was in Egypt and got some good photos of it.

In my book The Star of Africa, I had some insights from German pilots regarding the Italians.

I put this on a thread somewhere way back when, but in reading of air battle in N. Africa an assessment was that the Italian pilots were best flyers, Brits were best marksmen and Germans flew the most aggressive. They got in very close. Also, the rotary (radial?) engines on the Italian planes were less troubled by sand and dust.

One good book that I read that discussed the Italian capabilities and limitations in the Desert War was this book on the Battle of Bardia:

by Craig Stockings

An interesting arm of the Italians since about 1836 are the Bersaglieri units (battalions and regiments) which were founded on Sardinia as light, fast, marksmen due to lack of cavalry. Their emphasis on physical conditioning (even in parades they keep a running pace) they were in WWII thought to be matched with armored units to make up for the lack of mechanized transport. There are images of them running alongside tanks in combat, but I am not sure it is actual battle footage. They were also paired up with cavalry and at times were given bicycles. In modern times they were mechanized.
They had a distinctive broad-brimmed hat (dress uniform only in modern days) except they temporarily adopted headgear like the French Zuaves with whom they were associated during the Crimean War.