Save The Babies discussion
When is a baby officially alive?
Mod
exactly! I'm also Catholic, and so I believe that the baby is alive at conception, but that does not effect people who are uncatholic, but, Felicity, I think you make a brillent point to say that 1 cell = life, and at conception, the baby is one cell. Now, who can argue with that?
Mod
What I do not understand is that pro-abortionists use the 'it's not alive' exuse so much, and still the baby can hiccup and kick. How is this possible? You aren't making that lump of non living baby to hiccup or kick, are you? I don't think so.
Which makes it hard to believe that pro-abortionists believe in this idea so completely, and makes it hard to understand how they can use this excuse so often. Espcially the ones who have been pregnant before.
Mod
sure, the baby is alive. but it doesn't know what life is; therefore, it isn't really missing out on anything. is it sad that the baby dies? yes. but you ppl act like the baby being killed is someone the mother should feel like she's known for a long time. and it's not like that; it's not like losing a parent or a sibling. it's losing someone who you never met. it's still hard, of course. just because i'm pro-choice doesn't mean that i expect the mother to 'just get over it'. she'll feel depressed for a month or so, but she'll accept the loss in the end; and in a lot of cases, she chose the abortion bcuz she knew it was for the better.
what i meant was that it would be better for the mother, in some cases, especially if she was really young. she would have to go through depression, but her life could turn out better over all, which means she could go to college, and get married, and have a baby when she was really ready.
Well if a mother was really young she could give the baby up for adoption! As far as her life turning out better...well that was her mistake in the first place. She knew there could be consequences. I think that we are paying too much attention to what the mother would feel, that is kinda selfish from the baby's point of view! Oh, and by the way I know a lot of people who are single mothers and going to college! Also, it seems to me that newborn babies do a lot of eating and sleeping just like they did in their mother's womb, do they really know what life is? How can we tell? What if we decided they don't, can we murder them? Studies have shown that if a mother reads to her baby before birth, the baby can recognize her voice after birth...so the baby definitely knows it's mother before birth!
Scientifically, when the baby is an embryo, it is not alive. When it gets into the growing stage, I agree, it is living. If you get the baby while it is still an embryo, that could be BETTER, but I still don't like it. You are killing potential life, which I have a problem with, but some people don't. I don't like it, but is everyone in the world going to listen to us? This is just an opinion! People have other opinions too. We might not think it's right, but they do. We can't change everyone just because WE think it is right. They think it's not. These are opinions, not facts. I don't like abortions, but does that mean everyone should agree with me? NO. Some people are okay with abortions. Some aren't. It doesn't mean anyone is RIGHT or WRONG.
You could say that about anything. What if someone holds the opinion that there is nothing wrong with stealing, raping or murdering? Would you say "Oh, you don't have a problem with that? Well, then you just keep on with what you were doing and I will mind my own business!" I don't think so!
If that's their opinion, then it is. I don't say that's right, I think it is wrong, but that's my opinion. We can't get mad at someone just because we think something is wrong and they think it's right. I would definetly try and convince them to not believe that, but what I was trying to get at is that not everybody can be convinced. I accept the fact that they have a different opinion, but that doesn't mean I stop trying to convince them that I'm right.
An egg is alive too and it's a cell. So is a sperm. And they have people potential. Should I be saddened every time I have a period because I am losing a potential child? Not to mention the genocide that is occuring every time a man ejaculates. Sorry to be so sarcastic, but this is just silly logic.
i was thinking the exact same thing as lara. so every time i get my period, is that murder?? cuz every one of those eggs had the potential to be a human being, but it didn't get fertilized so it's dead. it's not fair to say, 'well the mother should deal w/it bcuz she got herself into the situation', bcuz you can have sex and still not get pregnant. i just don't understand the logic, like lara said.
okay. must i explain this??? this is kinda awkward, but okay.see, when you get your period, your uterus is clearing itself out bcuz there an egg went in there and it wasn't fertilized by a sperm cell. if it had been fertilized, it would have began to grow into a baby. so each egg that gets cleared out could have been a baby. but it didn't get fertilized, so the baby doesn't grow. so should i feel like a murderer every time i get my period?? that's all i'm asking.
technically, an egg is alive. it's a living cell. once it leaves your body, it's dead.
so... can you answer my question now?
(mckenna) no, ur not killing a baby. technically, the cell is alive, BUT it hasn't started developing into a human being. when you get an abortion, the baby has already started developing.
Well of course we wouldn't beable to change their opinion about stealing or murdering etc., but we have laws and those laws are carried out to make sure that people with those opinions don't harm other humans. OK. we all know that an egg and a sperm are alive, the point is when they join it is the beginning of a separate LIFE which we have no right to take a way.
(in reply to message 19&20)
okay. i still don't get it. don't tell me that you guys have never stepped on a bug, eaten meat, etc. everyday things like that are 'taking innocent lives away'. that's the way of life. some things live. some things die. and i don't agree that a baby embryo is a life, because it hasn't even seen the world yet.
This is human life with a body and soul that God made so that it will one day enjoy heaven with Him! We aren't animals. Do you think a nine month old fetus is a life? It hasn't seen the world yet either!
first of all, i don't believe in God, so that doesn't change my opinion. and i don't think it's fair to say that a human life is more important than an animal's. animals feel pain just like humans do. in my opinion, that's not a good enough reason.
I am sorry to hear that you don't believe in God. I guess if I believed that my life on earth was the same as an animal's , I would view the value of human's life the same way you do. You die and that's the end, nothing to look forward, to, nothing to live for. Just because you have that point of view doesn't give you the right to make it legal for a woman to kill their baby.
So you are saying that unborn babies can feel pain just like animals?
they both feel pain. so i don't see how it's different. that's all i'm trying to say.and please, don't feel sorry for me because i don't believe in God; i'm happy that way. i think that's kind of inconsiderate of you to act like just because i don't believe in God, i don't have anything to live for. i live for myself, and my family, and my friends. i live to make a difference, and i can make my own decisions for myself; i believe that bad things can happen to good people, and it's not a punishment, and it's not part of 'the plan'. i understand why people believe in God, but i personally can't believe what you believe. so don't feel sorry for me.
Mod
i don't know what there is after death, but there's nothing i can change about it, so i don't really worry too much about it. maybe i'm wrong; maybe there is a God, and maybe there is a heaven. but until i'm dead, i won't know. so for now, i choose to believe in neither.i don't think you're being rude felicity; i understand that you have very different beliefs from me, and i respect that. you were raised to believe in God, heaven, and guardian angels; i wasn't. i could choose to believe in these things if i wanted to, but i don't. when i see the history of the world, and from my own past experiences, i've come to the conclusion that bad things happen to good people, and i don't think it's fair to say that it was planned. personally, i feel better if i take responsibility for whatever happens to me. i don't really believe in fate. i think things just happen as we go along. i understand your belief and i respect it, but i just don't have the same feelings.
Mod
Brigid, let me give you just a handfull of some of the "side effects" of abortion for a woman. It has been studied extensively. Abortion is an UNNATURAL process, and has EXTREME effects both physically and emotionally.Physical: Breast cancer risk-doubles after one abortion, and increases further with 2 or more. Cervical, ovarian, liver cancer risk increases.
Uterine and cervical perferation risk
PID (pelvic inflammitory disease)-23%increased risk....most are diagnosed within 4 weeks of an abortion.
Endometriosis-2.5 times more likely to aquire after an abortion (especially teens).
Emotional:
If a woman has one abortion, she is 4 times more likely to have another.
PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) common in Vietnam Vets, is diagnosed in at least 20% of women, following an abortion.
Depression is extremely common following an abortion.
Suicide increase
Alcohol/drug abuse/eating disorder increase
After an abortion, women see their doctors 80% more for all reasons, and 180% more for phycosocial reasons.
Abortion is not something women "just get over".
when did i say that an abortion was something that a woman could 'just get over'??? i wish people would stop acting like i WANT women to have abortions!!! i'm saying that if a girl really wants an abortion, that's her choice; i'm not going to stop her. i would rather that she kept her baby, or maybe put it up for adoption. but i'm not going to take away that choice if she really wants it. i wouldn't choose it for myself, but i understand why, in some cases, a girl would want an abortion. i am fully aware of the risks involved in abortions, and of the emotional pain that follows. kathleen, you're talking to me like you think i expect girls to just get an abortion and forget about it right away. I KNOW IT'S NOT LIKE THAT!!! do you really think i'm that heartless?? i don't encourage abortion, but i support the CHOICE.
Wow Kate, great job getting that all down so clearly. I just made a garbled attempt on a different thread. It is so important that people realize that just because a woman may walk out of an abortion clinic feeling nothing more than a little shaken or ashamed and end up with varied issues and even life-threatening problems!Brigid, comparing animals to humans seems a little outlandish. Do you truly believe an animal's life is of equal value as a human's? Come now, would you say that it is just as horrible for a man to kill a litter of kittins as it would be for him to murder a family? Are you truly comparing squashing a bug to aborting a baby?
And as for being a murderer by menstruating. Come on people, I don't think any pro-lifers here would make such a ridiculous statement. An egg may or may not become a human being, but it only will if it is fertilized by a sperm. Even if you refuse to admit that an embryo is indeed a human being, it will certainly become one, with no question, unless of course, you take its life. An egg, or a sperm, by itself, how can you compare it to an embryo?
Trinka, I don't think you're really thinking about what I said. The only reason you're considering my statement 'outlandish' is because you're not seeing past your own human instincts. As human beings, we instinctively have a sentiment towards our own species; but animals have the same instincts about their own species. Did you ever think that say a cat, for example, considers humans to be an inferior species? Animals feel pain, both physically and emotionally, just like humans do. Of course, from any human perspective, we feel more depressed when we see human lives lost. But looking at the world as a whole, then yes: an animal's life is equal to a human's. I think it's inconsiderate to think that humans are superior to all other creatures, especially because we are the ones destroying the planet. I'm not really one of those earthy-crunchy people who's constantly preaching about global warming, but think about it. All species have their strengths and weaknesses. We all share this planet. We all live. We all die. That's the truth. From that perspective, we're all equal, regardless of what we are.
First of all, Brigid, no, it never occured to me that cats think they are superior than humans. Cats do not reason, and they do not know the meaning of the word superior. Cats have instinct, and just that. They know to eat, sleep, etc. They can learn. Beyond that, they have no power to reason. The reason that humans are superior to other creatures is becuase they have and intellect. God, whom you claim not to believe in, gave man dominion over animals.
So I would conclude from your statements, that you would never kill a spider? Or you think that I have no right to kill a spider? And if I am wrong, and you do believe it is all right to kill a spider, then I can only draw from your statements that is is then all right to kill your neighbor if they annoy you. After, you are claiming we are all of equal value. Interesting.
I think it's just selfish to say that animals have no reason. Sure, animals aren't literally as "intelligent" as humans. But they don't tend to murder each other, start wars, or cause global warming. All of these things, humans do. I find it hard to believe that God would "give man dominion over animals". I think that is only the belief because the Bible was written by HUMANS. In a perfect world, no one and nothing would want to kill something else. But the truth is, that's the cycle of life. Yes, I have killed spiders. I've eaten meat. I'm sure you've done the same. And to a certain extent, humans have the occasional instinct to kill each other; it is society that usually prevents people from doing so. Would I say that it's RIGHT to do these things? No. But that's the way the world is.
But hey, what do I know? I'm a fifteen-year-old who doesn't believe in God. Right, Trinka?
no. it's not, because it's the cycle of nature. if there was no food chain, there would be no life.
Good grief! You have very interesting notions. You have yet to answer my questions. According to your logic, I can draw the conclusions that it is no worse for a man to kill my or your family, than it is for him to kill a litter of kittens. Or that it is just as acceptable for me to shoot an annoying person as to swat an annoying fly. Either agree with what I have said, or clarify your statement about animals and bugs being equal to humans. Oh, the reason that animals do not 'start wars, or cause global warming', is that they have no free will or intellect. Some do, on the other hand, eat there young, eat their own shxx, wallow in the mud, and eat rotten carcasses. Please, if you put yourself on that level, do not include the rest of us!
Trinka, I'm sick of trying to "clarify" for you, because obviously you are just purposefully confusing yourself with whatever I have to say, to try and make your opinion sound more logical, which it's not. I'm not sure which "questions" you are referring to. You find every last tiny flaw in whatever I have to say and twist my words around to make me sound like an idiot, and that doesn't make you the ideal human being that you seem to consider yourself to be.
you only say that because you agree with her, honestly. i wouldn't have to be rude to her if she wasn't always talking down to me!
Intelligent arguments, Trinka :) And btw, Brigid.... she is NOT "talking down" to you. She is merely making her case, which is hard to dispute.
Good arguments Trinka. Brigid: Trinka is not talking down to you. This group is specified as a Pro-life group. You chose to join this group and make your arguments, of which we are grateful to hear. Trinka is as passionate as you are, or want to be, and has every right to describe and defend her position. You may do the same. No one is saying that you WANT abortion for yourself, or anyone.
You have not explained in any way how animals (including cats, dogs, elephants, geckos, spiders, cows, sheep, etc...)are equal to human beings. You just "feel" that they must be. How so? I for one am curious about this one. Please do explain. I'm not sure how you would ever be able to squash one, let alone eat one again if you truly believed so.
Wait. If my cat is sentient, and equal to me in intelligence and reason, we both still don't know why we are here or where we are going, or where we came from.
Oh well. Hey Cal(my cat)! We're the same! You just have fur, and fancy mice and sleep. I have a car, and a house, and insurance, and electric bills and hospital bills, and love, and hate, and distrust, and happiness, and love and LOVE, and did I mention LOVE? ....What a waste. :( I should be a cat.
Phooey. Even if you don't believe in an afterlife, do you really equate animal's mating habits and litters of offspring to human LOVE?
If you do I pity you.
Brigid. I understand that you believe that if the mother really wants abortion, than she should have it. But think about it THIS way:Think about your mother. If she was in the position of a girl who is pregnant, and is considering abortion, than you know what? YOU wouldn't exist. You wouldn't be living, all because your mother decided that she didn't want you in the world. That YOU were too much trouble. All babies deserve the life that at least everybody alive has right now, and if you disagree with that, well.... then... I can't really see why joined this group, because this is AGAINST abortion. Sorry if I'm being very rude or something.
Um yeah well I think that the baby is alive when it forms in the egg...
Life begins the minute the egg is fertilized. Yes, it may not have a beating heart but it's growing each day and each month it begins to take the form of a human baby. So what if it hasn't seen the world yet? It's a baby nevertheless! I agree w/ Jai, if the mother does not want the baby, she should put it up for adoption for a another family to take care of the child. Do you know how many people (who are unable to have children) would just die only to know what it feels like to have a baby, or to take care of a baby? It is, though, nice to hear from another perspective.
i like to think that babies have souls the moment they are made, it's just that the soul, like the baby itself grows with the baby.yeah, im catholic and it sounds cheesy, but whatever
but on the whole 'animal' thing
that's a more difficult subject
it's like babies almost
they feel pain, but they just aren't as smart as us.
and yes, they are physically stronger
but when you go to the are they equal to us? topic, they're just pretty much like babies, they feel pain and suffering, just not as smart.
what i wonder is if a baby comprehends pain the moment it's alivejust because it's alive doesn't mean it feels pain and even if it does, it doesn't understand
unless your catholic and the baby goes to heaven and jesus tells the baby what happened or something
^At the age that it's legal for you to abort a fetus, they can NOT feel pain. Their brains and nerves are barely developed, they don't understand pain or feel pain at that point.There's quite a difference between when you can legally have an abortion and when the baby begins to feel pain...
life begins at the moment "they" make a decision to... uh...-OH GREAT! How Am I gonna say THIS?!?!!?!?-...the point is that as soon as the CAUSE happens, the EFFECt follows.
it,s like planting a tree. once you decide to plant it, you know a tree should grow. However, you don't plan on apples growing, but they will, so as soon as you plant the apple tree, the apple's life begins.[to put it in example:]
i hope that explains my opinion. I'll try to find a better way to say it sometime....
When is the baby really alive?
Well everyone has different view. Catholics view it as the moment of conception, many others say as soon as the heart starts beating, etc…
Pro-abortionists, on the other hand, say that the unborn baby is not truly alive until the second it’s born. Am I right? So does that mean that all the proof that shows that there are dreams, brain waves, heart beating, blood pulsing, body parts moving on their own, etc, is fake? It’s still not truly alive until the moment, no second, no milla -second, it comes out of the womb… so say a hand came out first. Does that mean that that hand was alive before everything else? So what part of me was alive first?
“The baby’s kicking!”
So what does that mean exactly? Are you unconsciously telling the part of your body that is not alive except as part of your body, to kick? Have you ever gone, ‘come on, come on! Kick! Kick little thing inside of me that isn’t alive by itself, but is only another part of me!’ ??? I doubt it somehow. Is there any pattern to this kicking? No. Its random, just as a human being tends to be.