Aussie Readers discussion

I can't stand flashbacks! I don't like it when Im into a story and then all of a sudden it flashes back to months or years earlier. In particular those books where alternate chapters swing back and forth in time. Maybe that's why I'm not a fan of 'Time-Travel' settings:(

My peeves are a bit silly, I dont like it when there are too many proper nouns in a story. Also, I dont like it when characters have similar names, I need to keep going back to remind myself who the character is ... I read a book recently which had an Emily, Emma and Erica as three different but main characters.

Mine is when the author throws in a few French phrases, or sentences (with no translation footnotes). Not everyone speaks French! In the average, English language novel it is out of place. Any thoughts?

I recently read Villette which had a lot of French in it. Okay so it was set in Brussels, I thought the book was written as an exercise to show how superior not only Charlotte Brontë's French was but also her english. The French translations where in the back of the book but there was so much of it. I also had to carry a dictionary around with me as the english often baffled me as well. Such a different reading experience to Jane Eyre.

One of my biggest peeves is the character that is toooooooo perfect. Oh please give me characters with a few faults. :)

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "One of my biggest peeves is the character that is toooooooo perfect. Oh please give me characters with a few faults. :)"

I agree, else if they are too perfect let something bad happen to them so there is some hope for us imperfect ones!

Your peeves aren't silly at all Dee-Ann, its like the Author was lacking creativity when it comes to names. I'm not sure about the proper nouns, but I think I know what you mean. I think anyone reading Indelible Ink might have that issue if you are not a sydneysider or at least Australian.

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "One of my biggest peeves is the character that is toooooooo perfect. Oh please give me characters with a few faults. :)"

I believe the most widely-used term for such a character is a Mary Sue. But you're right - it's incredibly boring to have a character that's just super special, unrealistically good looking, and the best at literally everything they try.

The peeve that's been bugging me the most lately is the absence of an Oxford comma. That's the comma that sits AFTER the penultimate item in a list and BEFORE the word "and" which precedes the final item. For example: This list consists of the first item, the second item, and the third item.

One thing that really annoys me is made up names. I can cope with unfamiliar (non-English) names, but fantasy books with ridiculous names that are unpronounceable put me off so much that I won't read the book. I also dislike it when the author feels the need to tie up every single loose thread in the last three pages - I like to have some things left to my imagination. Not to mention authors who like to show off all the research they have done for the book by including so much detail on (insert topic) that has nothing to do with the actual story.
This makes me sound like a very fussy reader, but I'm actually far more generous that most members of my in-person book club and am willing to forgive all as long as there are some redeeming features such as good characterisation or subtle use of language.

neko wrote: "The peeve that's been bugging me the most lately is the absence of an Oxford comma. That's the comma that sits AFTER the penultimate item in a list and BEFORE the word "and" which precedes the final item..."

Oh No! You must have been reading some of my posts. I thought you didn't use a comma before 'and'! Now I'm feeling embarrassed, ashamed, and mortified.

Sorry Neko, LOL. Grammar is not my strong point,;DD

Mandy wrote: "...Oh No! You must have been reading some of my posts. I thought you didn't use a comma before 'and'! Now I'm feeling embarrassed, ashamed, and mortified.

Sorry Neko, LOL. Grammar is not my strong point,;DD
..."

ditto ... I always thought the same as you Mandy and then started seeing the opposite and thus was not sure.

Mandy wrote: "Oh No! You must have been reading some of my posts. I thought you didn't use a comma before 'and'! Now I'm feeling embarrassed, ashamed, and mortified."

To be honest, I hadn't noticed it here at all. Even if I did I wouldn't mind so much; I'm MUCH less critical of informal communications such as these than I am professional writings.

It's probably also worth mentioning that use of the Oxford comma is kind of controversial. Some style-guides (such as the Chicago Manual of Style) say that it should be used as a rule, while others (such as the Associated Press Style Guide) blatantly disagree. Either way, it often serves to clarify ambiguities and that's why I like it so much.

So, to reiterate, you're not wrong whether you opt to use the Oxford comma or not - unless your sentence is left blatantly ambiguous and the simple insertion of an Oxford comma would resolve it.

Janet wrote: "Mine is when the author throws in a few French phrases, or sentences (with no translation footnotes). Not everyone speaks French! In the average, English language novel it is out of place. Any thou..."

I know Agatha Christie peppered her novels with lot's of french sentences (even the non 'Hercule Poirot' ones). But I am under the impression that learning french as a second language was very common in her generation. So maybe for that time period by English writers it was not so unusual.

neko wrote: "It's probably also worth mentioning that use of the Oxford comma is kind of controversial. Some style-guides (such as the Chicago Manual of Style) say that it should be used as a rule, while others (such as the Associated Press Style Guide) blatantly disagree. Either way, it often clarifies ambiguities and that's why I like it so much..."

Actually I'm sure I have a lot of archaic and probably incorrect grammar rules floating around in my head from school. e.g. Is it true that you can't start a sentence with 'and' or 'but'?

...or because?

Gail "I'm not sure about the proper nouns, but I think I know what you mean. I think anyone rea..."

I'm not really sure about the too many proper nouns either Dee-Ann. Are you thinking of a particular book?

Mandy wrote: "Actually I'm sure I have a lot of archaic and probably incorrect grammar rules floating around in my head from school. e.g. Is it true that you can't start a sentence with 'and' or 'but'? "

I automatically thought that you were having a dig at me then :p I had to re-read my post to make sure I hadn't done that.

It used to be such that it was never acceptable to begin a sentence with a conjunction. But, with grammar being the amorphous beast it is, it's no longer such a faux pas; you can get away with it if you use it sparingly. (See what I did there? I started a sentence with a conjunction AND sprinkled in a little French just for Janet!)

I secretly love starting sentences with conjunctions, but that's because I like to construct my writing such that it firmly conveys how I would like for it to be read. I have a habit of abusing commas to force the reader to pause right when I want them to so that they are more likely to read with the intended inflection.

neko wrote: "Mandy wrote: "Actually I'm sure I have a lot of archaic and probably incorrect grammar rules floating around in my head from school. e.g. Is it true that you can't start a sentence with 'and' or 'b..."

No it wasn't a dig! Although I have probably lost all cred as a book group moderator by asking that question. LOL.

For some weird reason I thought you and capsguy were med students. Probably because I work with them all the time at the hospital. But reading your posts I know you can't be... You're way too literate.:D

Mandy I thought we were here to facilitate and provide entertainment? If we need to be experts on literature, grammar, and punctuation than I'm in big trouble. :D (Notice I managed to put in an Oxford comma! I was taught that the comma wasn't necessary.)

Mandy wrote: "For some weird reason I thought you and capsguy were med students."

Woah. I'm going to take that as a compliment, I think. I have rather romantic notions about what it is to be a med student thanks to a hearty diet of Lovecraft and his successors. Though I find your implication that med students are remarkably illiterate to be somewhat worrying!

neko wrote: "Mandy wrote: "For some weird reason I thought you and capsguy were med students."

Woah. I'm going to take that as a compliment, I think. I have rather romantic notions about what it is to be a med..."

This really reminds me of a great quote I found from a med student talking about writing within his profession that I found so true. Sorry but I've forgotten the source now:

"There is an aversion to long chunks of sentences." As a medical student, that line was particularly resonant. The ability to metabolize complicated sentences into bulleted phrases suitable for Powerpoint often seems to be the gold-standard of scientific communication. But how will our high-throughput language affect our interpretation of our patients' stories if "long chunks of sentences" are still the best way humans have to express complex thoughts, intricate observations, fleeting emotions — the whole range of what we are?"

Mandy wrote: "neko wrote: "Mandy wrote: "For some weird reason I thought you and capsguy were med students."

Woah. I'm going to take that as a compliment, I think. I have rather romantic notions about what it..."

Gail "cyborg" wrote: "I recently read Villette which had a lot of French in it. Okay so it was set in Brussels, I thought the book was written as an exercise to show how superior not only [author:Charlotte ..."
Great comment. I agree completely. I will have to check my edition of Villette for the the French translations. Hope they are there, or I may scream!

Mandy wrote: "Janet wrote: "Mine is when the author throws in a few French phrases, or sentences (with no translation footnotes). Not everyone speaks French! In the average, English language novel it is out of p..."
Mandy, thank you, for that information. You are probably right, about authors, of that time period, knowing French. I shall look at it, now, in a different light.

neko wrote: "Mandy wrote: "Actually I'm sure I have a lot of archaic and probably incorrect grammar rules floating around in my head from school. e.g. Is it true that you can't start a sentence with 'and' or 'b..."


Good one Neko! Thank you. I actually got to use my very limited French knowledge, with that phrase.

I get tired when authors don't seem to *care* about their work, especially about their characters. If an author is just trying to fulfill a contract, or if s/he has some neat ideas and is struggling to hang a story on them, or is living in their parents' basement to avoid having a day-job and a real life, it shows. I need passion and sincerity.

Cheryl wrote: " If an author is just trying to fulfill a contract, or if s/he has some neat ideas and is struggling to hang a story on them, or is living in their parents' basement to avoid having a day-job and a real life, it shows..."

I love the comment about still living in the parent's basement! lol. Although I doubt I'm good enough to tell that by reading their book! But I do know what you mean about just writing to fulfill a contract. I have certainly got that impression from some series' authors. Especially the really prolific ones. I'm happy to wait a year between books if that makes the difference in the quality of the story.

I'm with Gail re: too perfect characters. Some years back I read one of Traci Harding's Ancient Future books (think it was the first) and absolutely HATED the MC for this very reason. Here she was (MC) in the time of Arthur liberating women and turning them into a fighting force. As if! In addition, she could do no wrong. I came across Harding on a forum some time after that and commented on this character. Her response: 'Oh, my publisher said the same thing so I added a bit of exposition where she smoked dope so she wouldn't come across too goody two shoes.' Yeah, that'll fix it - NOT.

Jenny wrote: "I'm with Gail re: too perfect characters. Some years back I read one of Traci Harding's Ancient Future books (think it was the first) and absolutely HATED the MC for this very reason. Here she was ..."

Ha ha, that is such a brilliant example. I also read Traci Harding's Ancient Future and had exactly the same reaction. I have been in no way tempted to read another of her novels. :D

I hate lovely writing teamed up with a slow moving story.

Like I said before - "It's like looking at lovely wallpaper trying to find some drama in the pattern."

Kevin wrote: "I hate lovely writing teamed up with a slow moving story.

Like I said before - "It's like looking at lovely wallpaper trying to find some drama in the pattern.""

Kevin have you put that sentence in the quotes section on Goodreads? I would definitely add it to my favourite quotes.:D

I have a number of peeves from the big:
- shallow characters
- excessive description
to the pedantic:
- mistaking 'then' and 'than'
- 'insure' instead of 'ensure' even if it is an American publication
- semicolons in dialogue!
- authors using different names for the same character (Cecilia Dart-Thorntorn had about 30 names for the 'Ill-made Mute' in the first 50 pages)

I also hate 2-dimensional characters, especially ones that are perfectly good or bad. Not to mention TSTL heroines - bump them off early, I say.

As for grammar, mmmh. I'm not sure I notice it if everything else is flowing on (I feel guilty about that, though).

I think the 16th/17th century had the right approach; they were completely democratic about spelling and grammar. I'd fit right in.

Jacqueline wrote: "I also hate 2-dimensional characters, especially ones that are perfectly good or bad. Not to mention TSTL heroines - bump them off early, I say.

As for grammar, mmmh. I'm not sure I notice it if..."

Jacqueline, what are TSTL heroines?

Kevin wrote: "Jacqueline wrote: "I also hate 2-dimensional characters, especially ones that are perfectly good or bad. Not to mention TSTL heroines - bump them off early, I say.

As for grammar, mmmh. I'm not ..."

I know that one! TSTL = Too Stupid To Live! :DD

TSTL = Too Stupid To Live. I prefer my heroines to be at least as intelligent as normal women, and more intelligent than the men (but most women are born that way).

Stupid, self-deprecating heroines have a long literary pedigree, perhaps because it was men writing the books. Even the heroines of some grand stories e.g. Anna Karenina and Tess of the D'Ubervilles, are unable to stand up for themselves. But then Ann Veronica was written by a (mostly) 19th century man...

Murray wrote: "I have a number of peeves
- - - semicolons in dialogue!..."

Why not? Don't you speak with semi-colons? Picture youself in Oxford on a fine summer's day. You are following a path across the beautiful, historic quad of your college. Approaching you are two dons, unmistakable with their black robes, scruffy hair and total absorption in their conversation. The younger one, tall and stooped, is being harangued by his companion, a lively character with nicotine stained fingers and a halo of wiry, greying hair around his pate.

As they pass, you catch a fragment of his argument.
"...and ninthly,...'

Jacqueline wrote: "Murray wrote: "I have a number of peeves
- - - semicolons in dialogue!..."

Why not? Don't you speak with semi-colons? Picture youself in Oxford on a fine summer's day. You are following a path ..."

Jacqueline that paragraph is amazing. I love it! I could see them so clearly through your words. Thankyou!:)

Repetition is a killer. Particularly when it is cliches being repeated. I recently read a supposed NYT bestseller, which, over the course of nearly 500pp, described a character being 'still as a statue' three times. Now, the lazy writer might not notice, or think the reader wouldn't notice over 500pp, but it was so jarring!

TSTL = Too Stupid To Live. I prefer my heroines to be at least as intelligent as normal women, and more intelligent than the men (but most women are born that way).

I love that reference. Too often seen in too many movies! Remember the usually strong-willed Jodie Foster in The Panic Room. Begins strong then has her character compromised in the script (or maybe some hollywood execs demanding a rewrite)

Something else that I have a bug about is the spelling of okay as OK. I know it's acceptable, but it just irks me.

Kevin wrote: "Something else that I have a bug about is the spelling of okay as OK. I know it's acceptable, but it just irks me."

Really? Funny - I get irked by people spelling OK as okay. Seriously! :-)

And 'alright' - what was wrong with 'all right'? LOL

Lily wrote: "And 'alright' - what was wrong with 'all right'? LOL"

Don't forget to mention 'altogether'...

Jacqueline wrote: "Why not? Don't you speak with semi-colons? Picture youself in Oxford on a fine summer's day. You are following a path across the beautiful, historic quad of your college. Approaching you are two dons, unmistakable with their black robes, scruffy hair and total absorption in their conversation. The younger one, tall and stooped, is being harangued by his companion, a lively character with nicotine stained fingers and a halo of wiry, greying hair around his pate."

I see I was wrong now, Jacqueline. I'll try to be open-minded when I'm reading old English texts. :)

I've spent lots of time cataloguing my own books and books for the group bookshelf in the past few months and I'm finding one thing that really annoys me. When authors title their books "Blah Blah Blah: A Novel". Well Duh! Of course it's a novel. It's not a toaster! It just seems really pretentious to me.

P.S. Unless it's by an author who's a member of this group of course.;DD

Maybe I just don't understand, but what about 'literary fiction'? What exactly does that term mean? Perhaps it is discriminating against fiction that would like to be literary but, in the opinion of the chattering classes, does not make the grade.

Or is there a class of fiction that has no literary aspirations at all. Oh, wait a minute, I guess Fox News might fall into that category...

"Blah Blah Blah: A Novel"

Well, yes, it can be pretentious and annoying. However, just a note, several times I've actually picked up a book from a display that looked like it might be memoir or some-such, and was grateful for the clue "a Novel."

And yes, just the other day I vented loud enough for my whole family to hear "That's IT?! All of a sudden everything that's taken all these pages to develop is -boom- over?!"

Mandy wrote: "I've spent lots of time cataloguing my own books and books for the group bookshelf in the past few months and I'm finding one thing that really annoys me. When authors title their books "Blah Blah ..."

Hehehe! The mind boggles!! :)

I suggest that the author is using the word 'Novel' in this context to indicate its lack of genre. For example, I call my books 'crime fiction novels' -- maybe plain 'Novel' indicates it is a mainstream novel.
That's my two pennyworth...

Good points Cheryl and Carole!:)