Language & Grammar discussion

I love to find out where certain words and expressions come from, and it seems stories and anecdotes pop up now and again in other threads, so I thought I'd give etymology and origins its own home.

Got any cool stories about where a word or an expression came from? This is your thread! OK, it's all of our threads! (And speaking of, "OK" is said to come from the 8th president of the U.S., Martin Van Buren, who hailed from Kinderhook, NY, and was nicknamed "Old Kinderhook." Thus, he's "OK." Of course, others disagree with that as the true origin, and that's where the fun begins.)

Actually Donna sophos translates as wise, and sophistes is the one pretending to be wise. Than ks for the correct spelling on the other thread.
Now, NE I also have a jocular version of how OK came about. It is said that greek immigrants to the US who were semi-literate were writing home to their mothers using the phrase "Mana ola kala" which translates 'Mother, everything's fine" and which subsequently eroded into OK.
Oh and I have a question: I have come across the expression "things that go bump in the night" ( my weakness for fantasy and the paranormal is showing) Can someone explain how this expression came about?

It's from an old Scottish prayer.

From ghoulies and ghosties
And long-legged beasties
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us.

Sounds like a pretty good one to me.

Thanks Ruth.

Interesting Greek ("Greek to me" -- from Shakespeare!) anecdote about OK, Stamatia.

And Bunny, it was not only the explanation of the Sophists, but your cool explanation of the derivation for "exchequer" coming from the checkerboard cloth used by Henry II and his ministers to figure out finances. I love stories like that (and things that go bump in the night -- as long as that's ALL they do).

I would love to know where the phrase, "liar, liar, pants on fire" originated. How do pants flame when lying?

I come from Quebec Province, the only province in Canada where French is the sole official language. Our history is long (Quebec City celebrates its 400th anniversary this year) and tumultuous and dotted with conquests by the British. Our French has therefore developed in a different way than the French from Europe, in part because of the different needs of the new country, in part because of the influence of the English that surrounds us.

We therefore have "faux amis" (false friends), expressions that are directly translated from the English and therefore misused. But we also have typical expressions and words that add colour and spirit to our language. The first Quebecois dictionary will come out this year.

As an example of this I would like to submit the word bécosse, which is an outdoor toilet, most often at cottages nowadays. It is derived from back house of the same use.

"Liar, liar pants on fire"
I wondered if it has something to do with going to hell if you tell lies so I went to Google (as you do!) and found this:

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Liar_Lia...

It's a hoot...read the whole page!

I know...gorgeous isn't it!!!

LOL! I love the portable flamethrower comment. I know a few sales"people" I could use that on.

I found this site to be very useful and awesome for idioms.

That looks like a good one lsf. I have added it to my favourites.

Yes. Excellent. And, in my reading of a history book this week, I learned that the expression parting shot is a corruption of Parthian shot.

The Parthians were an ancient tribe of horsemen who attacked with bow and arrow. They were trained to charge and shoot, then wheel about on their horses as if in retreat; in fact, they were rearming their bows and then would turn back and shoot again over the horse's rump as they began to go back to their own lines. It was called a "Parthian shot" and it was very successful (and discouraging to any enemy that survived the first volley).

Today we give "parting shots" without benefit of bow and arrows. Verbal ones are especially common.

Two expressions, one I just used the other I've taken a great dislike to. Any word on where they're coming from? I've an idea that the first one derives from the game of pool. Am I wrong, and why is it used?

1. I'm behind the eight-ball, here.

2. We're on the same page (note: I loathe that expression. What page? The same blank page? We're on the same page, but are we reading the same thing? Beurk.)

Hmmm. I thought being behind the eight ball meant more something like being late. I'll have to look into it more.

Anyone has any input about being "on the same page?"

Now THAT'S interesting. I love great shifts, esp. two hour ones at work.

Anyone for "Between a rock and a hard place" or "Between the devil and the deep blue sea"? I feel I've been there, and yet I know so little about it...

Send this anecdote to Congress. Would that "compromise" were in THEIR lexicons!

Can anybody tell me where the expression
"it's a different kettle of fish" originated?

I believe it still means that Donna....that is the context in which it is still commonly used downunder......pretty kettle of fish means a messy situation and a different kettle of fish means a different problem than the one under discussion.

Now THAT'S a horse of a different color!

(Another inside joke in the film, The Wizard of Oz.)

Thank you people!!!

The La Brea Tar Pits, is The The Tarpits Tarpits.

Thank you thank you. Who knew that the doorbell ringing back in the day was really a fine young lady saying, "River calling!" (Well, either that or the Electrolux salesman... or Fuller Brush... or the dreaded Encyclopedia guy... or, even worse, the Watchtower people)...

Hahahaha....the Watchtower people! I used to tell them I was Wicken and watch them run!

I once had a couple of Mormon lads come to the door. Looked to be high school age. They asked if I had any questions about the Bible. I said, "You guys are asking ME if I have any questions on the Bible. By the looks of you, I should be asking you. Well?"

They looked at each other then wished me a good day. Polite, at least. Maybe one of them was Mitt Romney.

A "dog's dinner" is a delightful pommy expression.

I suppose its origin is just what it seems.

I confess I am baffled by the Mormons. What exactly is their world theory? Some times we get those pretty boys in Athens too, but since I consider prosyletising the height of bad manners (telling somebody what to believe is the ultimate insult to one's intelligence) I tend to steer clear of them. Could somebody explain the Mormons to me in short, concise sentences? Please?

They believe that some Israelites reached the New World, and Jesus came among them.

They believe that the early church became corrupt and only they know the truth.

They believe that God is a physical being, and eventually observant Mormons become gods on their own planets.

They believe that their leaders today are prophets.

They baptize the dead, which is why they are so interested in genealogy.

They are, in short, complete heretics, but many of them are wonderful people with a strong family life.

Ok everyone is entitled to their own theology and beliefs. But wouldn't you say that some semblance of historical veracity would be required by the people believing a theory. Belief may be an act of faith not necessarily requiring proof but when a theory goes so blatantly against the historically proven facts (where were these people in pre-columbian America and how come the conquistadores and/or Anglo Saxons exploring the continent after Columbus never encountered their settlements?) you'd think people would stop and question before following.
I tend to be annoyed by unquestioned faith. Does that make me some sort of a reverse bigot? I wonder

People believe all kinds of things contrary to fact.

There's something called "confirmation bias" whereby we tend to select evidence that supports what we already believe. That, and they have a very intense system of indoctrination.

Recent genetic and other research has created a problem for the Mormon church.

This website has a lot more information, from the perspective of disaffected members.

Thanks David

"Dressed up like a dog's dinner".....I don't know where or how that happened but down here it means too dressed up for your usual station in life.

Re: Mormons. Isn't the key to that church's success the fact that each member must fork over 10% (is it?) of their personal income?

Ka-chinggggggg!

My F2F Book Club is currently reading HIS FAVORITE WIFE: TRAPPED IN POLYGAMY by Susan Ray Schmidt for our August discussion.

Here's a review from Amazon...
"His Favorite Wife is the heart-stopping, inspirational narrative of a courageous fifteen year-old girl who becomes the sixth wife in a polygamous marriage. Cascading with well-developed characters, this true story will capture your soul and imagination as the author reveals how a group of kind-hearted, sincere people are led to embrace this controversial lifestyle in their pursuit of the highest degree of glory. Laced with surprising brush-strokes of humor, this heart-rending saga will take its readers on a journey that outsiders whisper of and shudder about. It answers the question that a polygamist's wife is asked countless times: How can you tolerate sharing your husband? In North America today there are over thirty thousand polygamists. Many of them lead secret lives in their attempt to hide from society and U.S. laws. Their women are taught that obedience, unquestioning acceptance of polygamy, and giving birth to huge families of children to follow in their parent's footsteps, will assure them a celestial crown. Few search out truth for themselves, but trustingly follow their prophet. Susan's book deals with this head-in-the-sand ignorance. She too, was one of these women."

Should make for a lively discussion! The book makes you want to both laugh and cry....it's an amazing and inspiring story!

And Ka-chinggggg is right!!!
Our neigbor (a Mormon Bishop) has built a 21,000 sq. ft. house that he is seldom at or uses...because his 'flock' is located in a near-by town and he is required to maintain his primary residence in that town!

Label me a cynic but scratch a sect and find somebody's money making scheme underneath. Not that the established churches (mine included) don't shoot for your money. What continues to amaze me is that people allow themselves to be conned in the name of religion. I hate exploitation of any kind but when the people perpetrating it pretend to be holy men I'm incensed.
As to polygamy I come from a largely matriarchal society (due to the fact that the men were away at sea most of their lives) and I can't even imagine how any woman would consent to the fact that she and subsequently her daughers be treated that way. But then I have a long line of dominating paternal grandmothers to back me up.

I'm with you 100% Stamatia!!

The Mormon Church controls a huge economic empire; it's almost ecclesiastical socialism. A department store, banks, etc. Some companies (Marriott Hotels, for instance) are controlled by Mormon families.

Mormons are very high in asabiya, Ibn Khaldun's term for social cohesion.

The young men go on mission for two years, far from home. That experience, and conversions abroad, have made their Mecca, Salt Lake City, a center of international trade.

The mainstream Mormons have given up polygamy, and admitted black men to the priesthood. There are some splitoffs that still practice it, and get into scrapes with the law because they tend to marry legally underage women to older men, and expel young men who might compete for wives at the drop of a hat.

They are an interesting group of heretics.

Back to the etymology:
Heretic comes from hairesis (Greek for choice). Therefore a heretic has chosen a different option/path etc.
In usage though, a heretic is someone who differs form your own beliefs just enough to be disagreed with/tortured/burned at the stake...but not different enough to be a heathen and therefore have a crusade launched against them.
Sorry, I'm rambling now...been reading Tyerman's "God's War"...must go and watch Life Of Brian to counterbalance this with satire.

In the Crusades, both sides were fighting heretics and yet they were not fighting together. Go figure THAT math.

As to polygamy I come from a largely matriarchal society (due to the fact that the men were away at sea most of their lives)

What country is that, Stamatia? Is it Greece?

Yes Tyler in the Greek islands most of the men had to go away to sea, either trading or as crew members in fishing or sponge boats. That left the women staying behind raising their children, coping with the farming and generally directing their families all on their own. They bred sons who thought it natural that mother was the hub of the family and accepted her authority in decision making. Having to cope alone also made for independent, hardy, self confident women who rarely took nonsense from their menfolk. Most of the last names in my island are matronymics, for example Nikos Elenis (Nikos the son or grandson of Eleni). This didn't happen in mainland Greece but it still holds true in most of the islands

Bunny you should have met my grandmother Daphne (my dad's mom). A formidable lady. Ruled a husband and three sons with an iron fist.

I would like to recommend The Mother Tongue for a short history of how English became so perplexing. It explores sources of inconsistent spelling and explains why we have so many synonyms.

Not sure if anyone answered the "liar, liar, pants on fire!" post yet. (I didn't see an answer, but I was skimming.) Anyway, when I was a kid we used to say,

"Liar, liar, pants on fire!
Hang them from a telephone wire.
Turn them in,
Turn them out,
Turn them into sauerkraut."

So, I assume that's where it comes from. Does anybody else remember that rhyme?

the pbs publication
The History of the English Language is also a marvelous source.

Ms. Watson, I am unaccountably flattered. You all really are certified by the IBF.

What a process it was! Ms. Watson had to field all of the "Ms. Congeniality" questions, for one. Then Debbie had to shuck the curmudgeoness label for an entire day when the judges came in with their clipboards. That sort of thing.

and moonface
what did you do?
hide behind the credenza?

i see you scheduled their visit to coincide nicely with my abscence
was that a purposeful act of deception?

(quick-hide big mouth)

Um... um... I "managed." And about your absence. Well, come on. You're about as friendly as any ee cummings sort can get.