Q&A (and brownies) with J.J. Murray discussion

I probably spoke about this before, but does anyone have difficulty writing flaws in there characters?

Its something that I have to think about, i don't do it instinctively.

All my characters are flawed. That's what (I hope) makes them interesting--and human. Perfection is boring and unrealistic. Imperfection can be beautiful.

I doubt anyone will use that last sentence to sell a beauty product.

Ha!

Writing the flaws of characters can be tough for me too. I like to show the flaws but I've recently discovered that there is a fine line between allowing the great characters to show their flaws and just writing a flawed character that no reader can like or connect to. It's a tough call. How does one allow the flaws to develop without making the character annoying and hateful?

It's drama...straight drama.

Let's look at this from the reader's perspective, shall we? No matter how you create a character, at least one reader will have a "problem" with that character. That, too, is human nature.

On the one hand, readers/reviewers will say, "They were the perfect couple" and later rant, "They were too perfect at times." On the one hand, readers/reviewers will rave, "They were made for each other" and later moan, "She made me want to choke her when she did X and said Y."

Yeah, it's a crap shoot, a pull of the slot machine, and a turn of the roulette wheel. Sometimes your attention to "flawed detail" pays off, and sometimes it costs you.

That's why I concentrate on what real people might say and do in real situations as much as I can. And still I'll hear, "Well, I never heard someone say or do that."

It's tough to be real, but readers who appreciate reality will thank you for the effort. Those who don't ... might not live in the real world anyway.

I agree with what has been said so far. I prefer flawed characters, but I think it's important to make them likeable, or to show growth so that the reader can come to like and respect the character. For me, if I can see why a character makes bad decisions, and it makes sense to me, I can usually tolerate a pretty flawed character. Of course, I have my areas I am less flexible. I really don't care for snobby, pretentious people; so I am less tolerant of characters like that.

I agree with JJ and Lady. I dislike too perfect characters. And you can't please everybody. I do want to show character flaws so there is growth, especially since I am working on Christian fiction stuff where there is supposed to be a process of growth--because of the characters' relationships with people and their relationships with God. But at the end of the day, after you receive the feedback and critiques, you have to be true to yourself.

I wasn't going to even bother 'cause folks disagree with me on this but:

I don't like certain descriptions of characters in romance novels. I mean does every single main character have to be oh-so-gorgeous? I have not read many characters where the average guy or girl gets to fall in love and have a cool romance. It's just not realistic. If only gorgeous folks got to fall in love, would there be any not-so-gorgeous people walking around? To date, there were only a few books I've read where the girl may have had a couple of physical flaws, or at least thought she did, or the guy may have been sweating about his lack of height or the lack of something else. Not only are the characters gorgeous but perfectly dressed and coiffed. I do think it's easier to read that when the narrator is in first-person because they are describing what they see as beautiful about the object of their affection. When it's third-person and the narrator is going on about their perfect skin, weight, behinds, legs, etc. It's annoying.

In the real world a gorgeous man may not have allll of the things the woman is hoping for, or a fit woman may still be self-conscious about her stomach. I think the romance is richer when the characters look beyond each other's imperfections and fall in love.
But my friends in my book group say that it's foolish. No one wants to read about the weird-looking folks getting their grooves on. LOL

Vacirca I agree with you. I want to read about more realistic characters more often. That's part of why I loved Something Real so much. Penny and Dewey were like people I could see at Walmart everyday.

HA! SOMETHING REAL was my favorite for that reason...

Great minds think alike!

You should have seen the mail I got on Something Real.

Though I had Penny cursing mostly in her narration and in her mind, some readers went bananas: "Church people don't curse at all!"

Penny is plus-size. Dewey is as wide as he is tall. They fall in love. Readers wrote: "I didn't see the attraction." This means, of course, that the reader wasn't attracted to Dewey. Who cares? The two characters felt the attraction, and isn't that what I'm writing about?

My hero in True to the Game is 40, average, and somewhat athletic. He's no hunk. My heroine is 39, decent looking but no bombshell, and still somewhat athletic. Neither wear the "right" clothes or consider themselves to be beautiful ... but the romance is beautiful (in my humble opinion), and that's what it's all about.

What grieves me the most: A reader will hang onto a flaw that I give a character on page two that gets resolved or "fixed" on page 300 and writes: "Because she said/did that, I didn't like her." She changed! She got past whatever it was you didn't like. Why can't you?

In short, sometimes readers don't "grow" by the end of the novel.

Hey folks!

Hey, LOL, JJ. Folks got mad that Penny cursed but didn't mind the fact that her husband was apparently a bisexual, abusive adulterer? LOL. Seriously, real "church folks" know that members of the church have lots more to worry about then cursing. Penny wasn't perfect and neither is any church folk I know, including me.

Personally, I loved Ruth aka Penny for that reason like I said before. I loved how she was overweight. It was refreshing to read. I appreciated how she felt like less than a woman because she kept losing her children. Let me tell ya, women who have lost children--or fear being unable to bear children--no matter the circumstances, can understand that. Barrenness is an issue that becomes the biggest "flaw" many women will ever have face. On top of that, it's one of the few "flaws" they cannot fix with a plan as simple a diet and exercise.

I loved how she felt around her two friends who were really attractive. I have had friends and relatives express feeling that way. Although I am pretty comfortable with myself, thank God, I appreciated how you put that in because women may be the best of friends and still have some underlying competition with their friends, especially if they have some flaws they don't like. What I liked most is that in spite of her self-consciousness, she didn't let nary one of her friends (or foes) push her around.

I especially appreciated that she found beauty in Dewey and also because of his children. Man that story broke my heart and filled it up at the same time.

At the end of the day, writers--whether aspiring or published authors--have to stay true to themselves. You ain't gonna please everybody. Besides, in this country, many people are not walking around in size six jeans or jeans with a 32 waist--at least not after high school lol. I guess I don't understand why is it that folks are offended when characters' flaws are depicted in a work. I would be happy to escape to a world where folks who are imperfect--either physically or mentally--can find perfect love.

P.S. Did I miss a novel named True to the Game? If so, where can I get a copy?

JJ, I was perfectly happy with Dewey and Penny. I am a Christian, and I often say some bad words, out loud and in my mind. I am trying to work on my language. It's realistic to see Christians who do have some flaws. And I loved how both Dewey and Penny weren't physically perfect. Like Vacirca said, you keep writing what you want to write. If you spend time trying to please others, all you're going to do is make yourself unhappy.

True to the Game is my work in progress to be in print sometime in (whoa) 2013.

She's the One (2011) and Something Like That (2012) will precede it.

In other words, what I'm writing now has to make sense two years from now. You know how hard that is to do?

I can't be too trendy and mention today's music, TV, movies, politics, the current catch-phrases and slang, certain products ... The restaurants/hotels/venues I choose must exist in two years, too. As for prices, I have to be general. (I usually add 4% per year for cost of living increases).

Sometimes it's fun making predictions, though. I think I'll put President Obama in this one somehow.

SO, JJ, you've changed your title from Hunks or Punks to True to the Game?

But why?

H or P isn't what the book is about anymore--not that it was ever meant to be. It's just a means to an end.

True to the Game touches on many more themes (players, the game of love, reality TV etc.)

Not to worry: Kensington has changed 80% of my titles anyway!

I wonder how that happens. How does a story take on a life of its own anyway. That's pretty cool how characters can lead the way.

She Got Game?

I am an English teacher by trade. It would have to be She Has Game ... and who would pick up that grammatically correct title?

She Got Game? Pretty hip.

Wait. Do people say "hip" anymore?

LOL How about Game Over?

or if you want to really be down with the times...

Game Ova?

Well, as long as you stay true to da game it gon' be i'ight.

Either way, your work sounds great. Can't wait for it to come out one day, God willing.

I have a question for everyone: we've been discussing the flaws of the characters, but what about the flaws of writers?

One major flaw I have as a writer is finding the time and discipline to write consistently and in a timely fashion. I allow to many distractions to take time away from my dream.

How do some of you deal with this flaw as writers?

I read in a book on writing written by some author of many books, He wrote if your character is going to be ugly make him really damn ugly. If you are going to make the chracter smart, rich, beautiful, make him smarter, richer, so beautiful it brings tears to the eyes. Otherwise your readers won't believe it. Some of us are down to earth and some of us are up in the clouds. When I thought up this question I didn't think about physical flaws, I was probably thinking emotional or psychological.

As a writer, time is always the issue and keeping my inspiration. On many occasions, I have started a story but couldn't keep the momentum of the story. No matter what I did, outline, interviewing characters etc.

To Jo: I hear you about the reason you brought up this topic. I also struggle with the emotional or personality flaws of characters because as I said in an earlier post, it's hard to bring out or highlight the flaws without making the character someone that no one likes. I guess if there is a process of growth it makes the unlovable characters more acceptable.

Also, thanks for your response to my question Jo. Losing momentum can be rough...and scary.

I brought up the issue on writers' flaws because I think our flaws can impact our writings. For me, as I said, it's been time management. I haven't lost momentum in the story I've been working on, but I am losing time...and hope LOL. After the responsibilities of each day are completed, I find myself trying to work on my project late in the evening...by then I am pooped and it can feel like a chore. Sometimes I turn on the computer and stare at my chapters and turn the pc right back off. LOL. Trouble is that I want to finish this story and try to send it out one day in the next year or so, and then work on some other ideas, before I lose momentum about writing in general. LOL.

Anyone else have time mgmt issues --one writer's flaw--that impacts their writing? If so, how do you deal with it? Or are their other "writers' flaws" -for lack of a better term--that some of you are trying to overcome?

Thank you Vacirca. My stories always sound better in my head. Getting them translated on paper or microsoft word is the real problem. Some days are wonderful others are not. Ppl think writing is so easy.

There is also the nagging ideas of:
Is anyone going to be interested?
And
Does this make sense or is it believable?
I write paranormal/urban fantasy,I have my characters do impossible;it means I have to write it like it is possible and entertaining.

I have these same exact issues, ladies!

I did NaNoWriMo this month and I really had to drive myself. I wondered, what the heck do I think I am doing here? I had to remind myself to just write something. That's what the editing process is for, to go back and make something workable out of it.

My major flaws:

insecurity
lack of motivation/laziness
lack of creativity
limited vocabulary

I had the same issue with insecurity for several years. Is this going to be good enough to get published?

Once you get published, that "flaw" vanishes ... until you start getting reviews. I am fortunate that the positive has outweighed the negative these past 10 years.

Yeah, that's like another can of worms, but you take the good with the bad.

Can I write a character flaw? Well, someone said above they have to do it consciously and I'd say I agree with that for my part. I have to think about the character and insert the flaw. I think because I don't want flaws in myself that I subconsciusly don't want flaws in the character. But if I give them a flaw it has to be something people are sympathetic too especially when I write romance. I'm trying my hand at mystery and there, flaw seems to be expected and something that endears the character to readers. But also mystery is not main character driven, at least to me, characters are part of the mystery but you may not know all the in and outs of their daily life or their past.

I have other flaws I'd like to share in this WSA (Writers' Somewhat-Anonymous) meeting.

I tend to have insecurities also, as Lady and Jo mentioned. I write something important to me but then wonder who the heck would care about this but me and people I know? Most of my insecurities are based on these additional flaws:

1)I've mentioned time mgmt.
2)Unrealistic expectations.
3)lack of creative discipline--I can go on and on until the story spirals out of control. I went off and wrote a 1000 page novel and learned recently that I have to chop out between 650-700 pages of it.
4)wanting to do too much with one story (see flaws #2 & 3).
5)limited vocabulary, I'm with you Lady Danielle. I find out I can be very repetitive.
6) Sometimes my characters act real corny.
7)fear of not sticking to it until whatever I am working on is completed to the best it can be.
8)getting sick of my own story.


Ahhh I feel much better now. Thanks people. This is therapeutic.

Oh, I can feel you on all those, V. This is helpful to know I'm not alone.

So Vacirca, now that you know your dragon, how do you plan to kill it. I am curious b/c my way of destroy it with chocolate is not working.

LOL @ Jo. Well, girl, let's not go crazy. Chocolate solves everything. Chocolate and malted milk balls.

Well, I can't kill the dragon myself that's for sure. I pray, plain and simple. Now, I realize that my answer won't seem like a concrete answer. For some, it won't be realistic. But that's how the dragon is being killed. And when I am really struggling, I pray harder.

Why it's my answer is because it has yielded concrete and practical results:

Prayer has led me to write, I believe, after a seven-year writer's block stemmed I think from tragedy in my life.

I prayed many times about time mgmt, momentum, getting sick of my story, and wanting to give up. I noticed this past week that I have slowly been restructuring my schedule so that my life can accomodate my dreams, rather than having my dream accomodate my life. I already have my life, it's the dream I have to focus on.

So after praying, these are the solutions I got so far: without even realizing it, I have been devoting myself to two hours a day (minimum) to write. So after I get home, help mom with foster kids, do take-home clinical paperwork, and do everything on THE LIST by say 8 pm, I force myself to take a nap. I wake up, refreshed, around say ten and work on the dream until about 1 or 2 am. Then go back to bed to wake up and start the life all over again. If I didn't get to take my nap, I force myself to sleep earlier, wake up earlier, to have time to pray then write before work. I have to be refreshed cause I'll just sit there and stare at the pc. Now I have to pray that this will last LOL.

For the issues pertaining to the problems with the way I write: fear, lack of discipline, limited vocabulary, cliches, Harlequin Moments, repetitive phrasing, and corny characters/scenes, I can say prayer has yielded results there too. Now here I was with an overwritten 1000-page novel in June. I asked God to send me readers. Somehow, very very busy friends (I mean in grad school, full time working, raising kids, moms in hospitals, sick husbands, church duties, etc)people who don't really have time to read published novels for pleasure anymore, actually offered to read for me.

Then I got suspicious when my friends said it was "good." Because I was afraid that they were just being nice when I got positive feedback, I asked God to provide someone knowledgeable to read the work for me, someone who knows not just how to write, but knows how to teach others how to write (better) and teach others to better edit. Someone who can be an informal mentor, of sorts (like the character in the movie Finding Forrestor. And I asked for someone Christian who wouldn't scoff at Christian fiction. I got my prayers answered there too. Not with one person, but with two! There was no reason for those people to assist me. But they did.

I don't think I have an official writing mentor yet, but I have to thank God because He got a few folks to read a 1000 pages of ROUGH first draft for me , in spite of their busy schedules, even though I know not one of them really wanted to. LOL.

That is actually how I came to learn about the vulnerable areas of my writing. Having been blocked for so long, I forgot many rules I had learned from writing courses and previous feedback on past works. Because I prayed and received feedback (painful yes) that I needed so that I can grow as a writer, I can do better.

For the issues regarding unrealistic expectations, well, I as a Christian have to battle those because I know those are issues concerning faith. But my prayer and studying of the Word have taught me the following: ask and you shall receive, nothing is impossible for God, if you commit plans to God, he will cause them to succeed. And lastly, if you are unsure of your plans, ask God to modify them.

So I am holding on to that when the ugly insecurity serpent...I mean, dragon tries to rip my heart out by telling me nobody cares about Christian fiction these days, there's no time to write a durn sentence, the rewrite is too hard--just trash the story, no one will care, your stories are weird, who cares about Haitian love stories with interracial love interests anyway, everyone is sick of hearing about Haiti after the earthquake, no one will like the characters that most remind you of yourself and your loved ones (and what that means) and my personal favorite, "Girl, face it, you suck as a writer, so just let it go."

Hope my semi-sermon doesn't annoy anyone. But that's my answer, Jo.

I didn't mind the semi-sermon. I believe in the power of prayer. It is scientific fact that prayer and meditation, effects brain chemistry for a overall better daily experience. I will also admit I probably don't pray enough.

While analyzing my flaw dragon I noticed, I am a card carrying procrastinator; my schedule can go up in flames at a drop of a hat. Naps, I love naps but they can easily become 6hr sleeping periods and then I have to be up to take care of the other things in my life. I love sleep and I hate waking up in the morning. There is also something to be done instead of writing or I get caught up in someone else's writing.

I feel ya on that Jo (about getting caught up in other people's writing). Sometimes I have to force myself to put down other's novels. I do believe it is essential to read to learn, but someone like me reads so much that days used to go by and I'm like, wait, did I even work on my manuscript recently? So it's been helpful to read a book then read nothing else for a few days to give my own story the attention it needs.


You're not alone in the procrastination thing. I have been also praying about that too. It's a huge issue and not just with writing. Sometimes I am too tired and sometimes I don't feel like being bothered, to be honest, so I put it off. You should see the paperwork on my desk at work. LOL. And I hate clutter.

So Jo, how are you going to slay your dragons?

People ask me, "Who do you read?"

I read completely for enjoyment and escape. Clive Cussler, Ken Follett, Stephen King, Michael Connelly, Jonathan Kellerman.

I don't read my competitors and haven't read any competitors since I read The Color of Love 15 years ago.

"You don't read your competitors?" Nope. "Um, dude, why?"

Two reasons: 1) I don't ever want to be accused of "biting" off anyone; 2) I'm really only in competition with myself!

And now I have to explain #2. Once you're in print, the world judges you on the "What have you done for me lately?" scale. I hope I have improved as a writer since my first novel, and I can't simply rehash what I've already written. I'm always thinking up something new, something different, new angles, new settings, new themes, new problems, new characters. If I find myself writing in the same vein, I open another vein and bleed something else on paper.

Not the best metaphor, I know, but I am not allowed to get bored with my own writing.

I understand you, J.J.; I have several books on my shelf that I don't read b/c their stories are too similar to mine. I don't want to be labeled copycat or sued. I find it is also frustrating. I mean you are plotting along with your story pick up a random book an on the back is the scenario that took you weeks to think up. It is almost enough to make a person unchristian.
I have to meditate on the fact that I am an individual and different from everybody else. Just so I won't lose the story I started.

Slaying my dragon is hard. Mostly b/c I know me. I found that my blackberry became a useful tool. On an odd occasion I didn't have a pen or computer.

J.J. wrote: "People ask me, "Who do you read?"

I read completely for enjoyment and escape. Clive Cussler, Ken Follett, Stephen King, Michael Connelly, Jonathan Kellerman.

I don't read my competitors and haven..."

I like that advice, J.J. and think I'll be using it. I haven't read any IR romance in awhile and you're read after awhile your writing will start to sound like someone else's. I'll be reading my story and think "I've seen this somewhere before" and yes usually I have. Here lately I'm trying to read something with excellent writing, trying to stretch how I write not just how I tell a story. So I've been reading Walter Mosley, Jane Austen, David Handler, Alexander McCall Smith, trying to learn to take myself outside my comfort zone in writing.

Thinking about what JJ and Jo said, I wonder if it is useful to check out the competition, just to make sure you don't accidently take someone's idea? Of course some ideas are so original you don't have to worry about "taxin'" another writer's idea but
*shrug* who knows? Maybe it's worth it to keep watch.

I don't know. I didn't have any ideas for a long while so I hope by the time I come up with some copycat idea, the one that came before will be long forgotten.

Kidding.

Hmmm. Maybe not. Incidentally, I wrote an outline for a story and put my notes into my FOR FUTURE USE folder. It was a story about a Haitian man who runs a Botanica store in Brooklyn. He's a voodoo practitioner. People in the community come to see him to get want they want--love potions, help for sickness, etc. In return, they have to do a variety of things which leads to chaos in the community. He is "hired" to bring a woman harm. He sees her and falls for her, goes through changes blah blah...it is a CF story.

So I share it with my bro. He says, "Oh, like the Haitian, Christian version of Needful Things? (by Stephen King). Never read it, never seen it. Get the movie. In spite of certain differences, all I could say was "dang!" The whole concept of a store where people go to get what they want at a detrimental cost. I'm no Mr. King and Brooklyn ain't no Castle Rock but "Dang!"

I do hate it when that happens, but I subscribe to the notion that if you snooze, you'll lose, then you'll get hooked on booze.

Maybe, it won't always be about putting out an original concept or story. Sometimes it's about putting out an semi-"original" concept best. I'm guessing if someone comes out with an idea that's been done, people will still think the writer "taxed" the idea. How can you prove you didn't read it first? Me? I figure I might as well see what is out there in the preferred genre to avoid all that (with enjoyment). And then come up with something off the chain.

If possible.

There really isn't anything new under the sun when it comes to ideas for writing, they recycle just like fashion. I think what J.J. was saying and only he can clarify is that you don't want to read something and subconsciously take someone's idea. If you'd never read Stephen King, I wouldn't call that copying, maybe great minds think alike LOL. I just don't want to read something and then while writing or even coming up with an idea re-hash someone else's story.

That's true. I have read King, just not that story lol. Shoot, Eugenia, if great minds think alike, then I'm hoping I can think like King and think up a couple of bestselling novels turned movies too LOL.

It is hard when you subconsciously take an idea. You're so excited then poof! Gotta scrap it. But the thing is that even if you didn't mean to copy, readers may think you did anyway.

Here's some advice:

BE A SPONGE.

Soak up real life as much as you can. I used to hang out in the mall. Had no money, but I did have a notebook and a pen. I would just eavesdrop on conversations, write character descriptions, note how people walked, talked, breathed, fussed at their kids ...

Research topics (i.e. reality TV for my latest book). Immerse yourself in a neighborhood. Hang out on a bus all day. Can you see Stephen King hanging out on a bus all day?

Get out of your office/guest room/kitchen/wherever you write and enter the most original world ever created--planet earth.

As for reading the classics and examples of excellent writing--DO SO. Though I have issues with John Steinbeck's style, I am still amazed at his ability to describe and set scenes. He uses so many significant details that you can't help but be right there on the road or in the field or on a wharf somewhere.

Excellent advice, JJ. A lot of ideas come to me in the streets or on the subway. Or in front of Botanica stores in the Flatbush area of Brooklyn.

I will do the mall for sure, for the first time. I'm hitting up the ultra huge Pallasades Mall in Rockland County for dreaded Xmas shopping with mom AND two aunts. *swoon* Seems like the perfect time to start. While the grown folks are bickering, I can hide in the food court and write. Over the years, I've seen a number of "discussions" between annoyed husbands and shop-crazy wives in that huge mall.

Great way to engage in some dialogue-creating, show-don't-tell skills building.

I agree with Eugenia, you can't take an idea if you never read it before. Also even though your idea was similar, as far as I can tell from the movie, the proprietor of the shop had no redeeming qualities at all. Also Needful Things is not the only shop with evil objects out to get folks. Does anyone remember Friday the 13th T.V. series? A girl inherits an evil store and the curse from her devil worship-ping uncle.

I also agree with J.J. be a sponge. Tweaking real life is almost as much fun as rearranging lives in a story.

I will like to add too Merrick, was a female character I was happily developing. When Anne Rice decided to use the name for a book and character. I never read the book but was glad to read later on that the witch/vampire died.

Ahh the mall, I like that idea. This town I live in is full of characters and you could people watch just about everywhere. I'll do, also will give a chance to get out and see the city I've been cooped up too long. I remember Friday the 13th, the Series Jo. That was a great show, I used to watch it all the time. And I'm definitely on board with reading the classic and writers you admire. I read things sometimes and I just wonder, how did they do that, how do they do that? Just means I need to study harder and challenge myself with the writing.

What not to wear when people watching:

A T-shirt that reads:

"Be careful or you'll be in my next novel."

My sister gave me such a shirt. It's a nice conversation starter, but it really kills spontaneity.

(Actually, I wear it so folks will be quiet around me. Is that a good thing? Note: It does not work around children).

Yeah I found that kids are really happy if you put them in your book. I personally try not to put anyone in my book, I have to look at later on in my life.

LOL. Seems like I do need a tee shirt that says "Be quiet or you'll definitely be in my novel." I have to wear it every time I am around the ladies in my family. They are a trip. And you can't make up the stuff they say or do. Then again, I don't want folks fussing like they did in that movie The Best Man.

I agree with your previous comments, Eugenia and Jo, and my own too. I guess it's about putting a not-so-original concept best sometimes. I still want to think up original plots/concepts as often as possible.

I do think it's cool that we are blessed with the mind of a writer, even though it may take time to build on our natural talents/skills to make use of it. It's cool, no matter what, to be able to witness a small snatch of something-conversation, etc-and create a whole new world from that. Even if some of us are not where we want to be YET, it's a start.

Some people may think that is a god-complex. LOL. I love writing plan and simple. I have read and watched things, that have left me speechless and thinking I could have done better. Why the hell did that person get paid for producing crap?
That is one aspect of me as a writer the other half is the desire to tell a story with the perfect words.