On Reading Graphic Novels discussion

I read and very much appreciated Scott McCloud's book, and share your feelings about graphic novels as a form. There is so much possibility for story telling here, for wild imagination and gorgeous art. I've never been into the bright colours and simple naratives involving people who like to wear their underwear over their clothes and it depresses me that this single genre dominates the form. Thankfully there are all kinds of stories and art styles out there - especially in the webcomics.

i think there is room for both discussions -- fanboy matchups and serious conversation. but i do applaud your effort to steer us in a different direction.

i too have read mcclouds book and agree with you regarding the variation in permeation in america vs other countries. however, i think you are going in the wrong direction with the size (and color?) of graphic novels, at least for me personally.

the only way i would be comfortable with that decision would be if these volumes were also offered at oversized high quality paper hard cover editions ala the dc "absolute" line. so then people have a choice between cheap small versions they can leave on the bus for someone else vs a reference bookshelf for full immersion like me.

thanks for the topic!

It does depend a lot on the kind of artwork, as to what size of paper it needs. Some artists being a lot more intricately detailed than others. Anyone seen cursed pirate girl? You couldn't do that at regular book size without losing something.

Do you think the publishers aim to make their money with individual monthly sales versus the volumes and collections?

I am not deeply versed in graphic novels, and the book that you mentioned by McCloud sounds very interesting. However I have been won over to the format by the quality of what I have found in recent years. Fogive me if I am behind, but I am now delving into DMZ, Preacher, Scalped, and finished Walking Dead.

I think for me the cost of the Collections and Volumes is prohibiting me from wanting to buy. $60 for the Walking Dead was a doozy, even though I think that it is very excellent and probably the best zombie story out there is a glutted market.

My uneducated is that marketers think they can make more money and individual issues than on collections. Volume sales. So maybe they don't put the money into marketing to bookstores that sell the collections. My nearest Borders has a Graphic Novel section that is rather nice, better than I see at most stores.

What drew me into Manga and graphic novels was Death Note. I read about it on a recommendation list somewhere. It was fantastic.

I liked the manga format for that story, but I think it only appealed to me for novel reasons, reading back to front and it was in black and white, it just seemed 'correct'.

But I think the format and size of the graphic novels like Preacher, DMZ, Walking Dead are fitting also. The large color graphics just seem to flow better in a larger size, the old-fashioned comic book size. I think a great deal would be lost if they were shrunk down to trade paperback size.

I have not purchased any graphic novels, however, I am a library reader. Except I did buy some Death Note and have purchased a few manga to get the feel of them (Fruits Basket, Bleach).

I think graphic novels could be heading toward a resurgence, especially to the bookstore chains, if the publishers will push it. Readers need to know there is more there than superheroes.

I appreciate someone opening up a lively conversation here also.

I did try to get my superhero loving husband to read Marvel Zombies, but he had none of it. That is one of the superhero ones I DO like.

i agree with your points, i just dont want that format to be the only option. if they had both i would be happy with getting rid of the current halfway inbetween size. ive read the color scholastic bone volumes for example, and sin city is also offered in a large hardback version. dc is strict about what meets their criteria for absolute editions and i want that to be expanded for more things.

youre right about the need to prevent graphic novels from being viewed as only the source material for hollywood. and an important way to achieve that is not only to position them differently in bookstores, but get them into the hands of more readers (and early readers) like with the annual free comic day and the read a graphic novel in public day. the former being an example of publishers pulling together like you said -- the latter is fan driven.

regarding bookstores, dc is working on that by making stand alone graphic novels of their major characters for places other than just comic stores (like superman earth one). i know thats not helping the non-superhero genre but at least its a foot in the door. in the meantime there are people who cant afford any size or price graphic novel.

so i think more importantly we need to lobby for teachers and librarians to celebrate the format for the unique combination art and literature that it is. it can also serve a dual purpose to get more americans reading in general. ive personally done both and found good receptiveness. you just have to be willing to donate a variety of collections that are high quality stories (for example, when you upgrade to newer printings). many people have just not had any experience with them before and dont know that theyll like them is all.

Maybe the success of Walking Dead on AMC will provide a medium boost?

I would have to agree that there is a place for both. I don't think it's so much that the members of this group aren't willing to have serious conversations about graphic novels (whether it be style, marketing, which are great to read, etc); I believe it's just that no one has started up serious topics. Now that you have, you're getting responses. And I'd be happy to talk about this novel or that novel and why it's great or not great. Or why on earth Gail Simone doesn't get most of the cred she deserves as a writer.

But in my fandom, I also love a little Batman vs Ironman stuff. Perhaps it's the trivia geek in me. This is the same kind of thing that happens in other fandom. Could the 1985 Bears beat the 1966 Packers, etc. And of course there are people who couldn't care less about such made up scenarios, but I think it's unfair to think of us as less serious readers because we indulge in a little imagination now and then.

can you recommend some gail simone for the uninitiated? whats a good gateway read to that style, regardless of subject or character? thanks!

Often the people who don't understand how amazing graphic novels are, are simply people who haven't read them before. As someone who works in a library, I am constantly pushing graphic novels and getting them into more people's hands. Most times they don't realize the complexity of storytelling that can be involved, or how an artist can make or break a book.

For those who refuse to take graphic novels as interesting or serious storytelling I tend to push Millar's Red Son or Kirkman's Walking Dead.

For those of you who have libraries that have small graphic novel collections, you don't necessarily have to donate your old ones to boost theirs (though we DEFINITELY appreciate it). Most libraries have a form where you can request materials for the library to purchase. More often than not, they will honor your request and get it for the collection.

i gave a lot of credit to dc earlier, but i should also point out that marvel has been making an effort as well in their line of digest sized collections. ive had some success with younger family members and titles such as runaways, which is a hit both with adults and kids for its various themes. and they sell that at all three sizes we have discussed in this thread.

Good thread (I also tire of these endless X vs Y threads). I think Scholastic's smaller formats are a good thing, but I wonder if their popularity is due to the format or Scholastic's ability to reach a broader audience than Image or Cartoon Books.

Actually, I don't entirely share the feeling that comics are still an embattled medium, at least not as much as they were when Understanding Comics was published. Back then, Maus might have been the only graphic novel taken seriously by the literary community, but today there are comics up front and center in popular book stores and regularly reviewed alongside the most important prose books in major publications. I'd say they're still a little stigmatized, but things are definitely better than they were 10-20 years ago. We may not have a comics culture like they do in Europe or Japan, but we do have one, and it seems to be growing.

I enjoyed all three books by Scott McCloud as I also enjoyed meeting him at Comic Con in 2000. As far as Maus goes, I would also bring up two of the best graphic novels around which are, and came out at the same time, The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. I don't think Superhero comics keep comics from being appreciated. I think the fact that one movie after another featuring them is successfull would show the opposite, that the culture is embracing them.
Now Dan, thanks for jazzing up this board, finally someone wants to talk comics without being too much of a fanboy. I love a lot of the titles you brought up. I have to admit however, Sin City isn't my favorite Frank Miller. It was too much of a homage to hard boiled fiction and things happened because they happened in a lot of other stories, not because they were central to the plot. Artiface won out over art. You mentioned Ghostworld, have you checked out Clowe's latest?
And do you buy the comics that come out monthly? Lots of good stuff in the superhero world.

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/09/1319372...

interesting

I remember reading Maus and marveling at its uniqueness and intensity.

as good as the dark knight returns and watchmen are, i dont know that they would work as someones first graphic novel. theres just too much to appreciate that would go over the readers heads -- especially considering they are both reflecting on the existence of graphic novels and those characters in the first place.

i liked the suggestion of we3, but i am worried it could be too polarizing or scifi. what about something like pride of baghdad? it has the same qualities you listed, especially superior anthopomorphism, but is not too dense or long (while also being a bit more topical than we3).

you also get around picking something that has been adapted as a film (sin city, v for vendetta, many others you listed) even though the we3 movie is not out yet. i think that could be an important step in order to mitigate preconceptions. unless you want to use that to your advantage and give someone who liked batman begins a copy of a non-morrison collection.

Sorry Cesar, I will get the names right in the future. Have you ever checked out Eightball? It was a series that Clowes did. Ghostworld made it's first appearence there as did Art School Confidential, David Boring, etc. If you can find them, they are a great read. Speaking of funny, have you ever read issues of Hate? Another hilarious sarcastic comic.
Pride of Baghdad isn't as political as B K Vaughn's Ex Machina. It too as a wonderful sense of humor in the way it fits in mayor/ superhero into news of the day. I really enjoyed it and can't recommend it enough.
And I am glad to see you are a Grant Morrison fan. We3 was great as was The Invisables (a great early version of the Matrix), the Filth, Etx. A lot of Morrison's Vertigo stuff is really worth looking out for. His mainstream work is really good too. His XMen and Justice League were very well done. I think he is to comics what Philip K. Dick is to Sci fi, literally creating his own metagene comics.
But speaking of great titles, have you ever read Moonshadow or Dreadstar?

Cesar, if the reader can stomach zombies, I always recommend The Walking Dead, it's beautiful in it's simplicity.

As for not recommending superhero titles for first timers, I'd have to say it depends on the book. Even if someone isn't an avid comic reader, I'd say they know who Superman is and the basics of his origin. So stories like Ross' Peace on Earth is accessible and has beautiful artwork.

We3 is amazing and I would agree with you that it could make a great first graphic novel, thought I'd never thought of it that way before. Morrison is very hit or miss with me.

Blankets is also a wonderful story, but I think the 500+(?) pages might be a little daunting.

I think I gave Pride of Baghdad 3 stars. It's not an awful story, and I like Vaughn, but I'm not sure about a first venture into graphic novels.

Walking Dead is a great series, more so since it doesn't really have an end in sight. That it continues on and on is what makes it so good. It is not only a great read monthly, but reading it all togather in the hardcovers is great too. It really pays off rereading. You should give it a try Cesar, you will not be sorry.

I'll sing the praises of Gaiman from here til Doomsday, but I still don't know if I'd start someone out on Sandman. I know what you mean about the series having a definite end though. It feels like less of a commitment to the new reader. "If I don't like it, I can stop soon." sort of thing.

Nice discussion. I saw The Walking Dead Compendium 1 which has an End printed on it if I'm right. Yet it would be a long (1000-page) book for a starter. How about Persepolis, Maus, Safe Area Gorazde.. before All-Star Superman, Demo, Preacher..

Anyone exited about McKean's Cages back in print? It is and it is awesome.

I wish Adventures of Luther Arkwright had an absolute kind of edition.

One shot books I'd recommend would be V for Vendetta (the film doesn't strictly follow the book) and The Sandman , not only for Gaiman's storytelling - and since he's written several novels, his name & style might be already familiar - but because each volume of the GN series is a set piece unto itself - you can read one volume without having to read the whole series (except for the final books)
The Dark Knight has my vote also - sure, there's a lot of back story that Miller expects you to know - but there's a lot he creates (Selina is a lesbian prostitute?) But between TV, movies and cartoons and toys - don't we all pretty much have an idea of the basic Batman story? I don't think it's that far a stretch for a first timer unless they've spent the last 70 years in a bubble.
Marvels is an excellent choice - the joy and the wonder and the amazement of what superheroes can be - inspiring.
Especially when coupled with Ruins - what it can be like when it all goes wrong. The two books together present an interesting and thoughtful contrast.
And for the more light-hearted - the first collection of the Fables series. Fairy tale characters living in NYC and upstate NY. Yep, that would explain some of my neighbors....

Someone else urged getting more people to read comics. My Dad, because of a speech impediment, never learned to read well (he couldn't sound out the words) But comic books were easy to read, the words relatively simple, and most of the action in the pictures, not the words. He was especially fond of Batman & Superman.
When I was small, Mom & I would read Little Golden Books together. Dad and I read comic books.
As a result, I'm a voracious reader with widely eclectic tastes, which my full and overflowing bookcases can attest to.
Mom says I bought my house just so I'd have some place to keep my books.
She's not that far wrong......

As I said, I like the contrast between Ruins and Marvels - and I prefer Marvels (Marvels is on my bookshelf - Ruins is on the To Be Sold pile) Marvels inspires us to be our best selves, by "super-sizing" those qualities via the superheroes. No, us mere mortals aren't going to ease ruptured planes gently to the group, or run an organ transplant from the East Coast to the West in a matter of minutes to save a life - but we can go out of our way to help the old lady across the street carry in her groceries...or really STOP at the stop sign, and give the pedestrian in the crosswalk the right of way, rather than demanding "me first". That's the value of superheroes - to exaggerate our best qualities larger than life...and inspire us to exhibit those qualities in more human size proportions.
Ruins is a depressing, negative book. And again, it exaggerates, holding up, larger than life, our lesser qualities...encouraging us to NOT emulate them...by giving the darkest, most despairing results.
I'm an optimist, and I prefer Marvels, and have no desire to re-read Ruins. But I acknowledge that darker, despairing aspect within me, and strive to overcome it, not by ignoring it, or burying it. But by letting my Light nature overcome the Dark aspect.
You can't have light without darkness. The question is, which do you choose to be your dominant nature?

By the way, thanks for starting this thread. I was really bored with the X vs Y stuff, and ready to cut of Goodreads all together. I was an English Lit major (back around the time we were switching from papyrus to linen as writing material) and miss discussions about the written word. Most of my friends are movie and theater buffs, so our discussions include whether or not the lighting and costuming were effective, and the overuse of F/X and blue screen in most films. So it's good to have a literary discussion again. And comic books & graphic novels are literature - they tell a story - and good storytelling, no matter the medium, always captives, and poses questions.

I think I would recommend Local for a first time reader - nothing superhero or unnatural about it, and you can read the whole series easily. It tells a lot of story in art with no words.

Size and format mean nothing to me when it comes to buying/reading. It's the story.
Whether the story is in text only or mixed with graphics is also of lesser importance than the story itself...or even if it's a movie.
It's the narrative that, to me, is the key.
Which brings me to what to recommend to a noob: what films and books do they go for? Break them into the medium with something from the same genre.

I'm just catching up with this conversation (still in the 5th or 6th comment on the thread) but I wanted to disagree with a point that Cesar made about the success of the Scholastic Bone books. It's not just that Scholastic published them in a "smaller, more accessible" format. It is also that these books were AGGRESSIVELY marketed towards kids, really for the first time ever. When Jeff Smith was first publishing them through CB, he never thought about whether he was putting them out for kids or grown-ups -- he was just telling the story he wanted to tell. When he gave Scholastic the rights to republish them (and to colorize them, which also made them more accessible to kids and which I'll say more about in a minute), he opened up a door to an amazingly well-developed sales/marketing infrastructure and a hungry, largely captive audience. That promotion brought it to the widespread attention of teachers and librarians who past it onto their students and patrons and got them hooked. My point is that it was not a matter of format (or not only a matter of format) but a larger perfect storm of marketing and promotion among an established and hungry audience.

That all said, I am sort of disappointed by the decision to colorize Bone, or at least to have the colorized versions be the most visible ones. Re-reading Bone in its entirety on the publication of the One-Volume Edition, I was stunned all over again at Jeff Smith's clean line work and use of stark blacks. Granted the colors are very well-done, but it detracts a bit from Smith's masterful art. AND, being a teen librarian myself, it saddens me when I talk to kids who are ravenous Bone fans but will refuse to check out copies of the books that are in the original black and white. But I do earnestly hope that opening Bone up to this whole generation of kids will ensure it's place in the children's lit pantheon for years to come, and allow Jeff Smith a throne made out of money.

As I mentioned, I am a librarian. I'm also totally obsessed with comics and whenever I see somebody wandering through my Graphic Novel collection I always run over to push stuff into their hands. Here are some of my favorites for adult readers new to the comics world:

* Persepolis and Fun Home (both very full literary works dealing with universal-ish themes and with enough political hooks to get people engaged, and also very good for female readers)

* Super Spy (terrific densely plotted spy fiction that is also something of a puzzle - not well known but highly recommended!)

* The Arrival by Shaun Tan (silent and gorgeous, very relatable)

* Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men (because it is just plain FUN!)

* Signal to Noise

* Scalped (epic noir set on an Indian reservation, easily my favorite currently running series)

* The Unwritten (a dark spin on Harry Potter)

Am I the only person in the universe who thought Fun Home was not that great?

Yes Katie, you are :P

I have just started Ex Machina and this looks great, on to the second volume. This is a type of superhero novel that I usually avoid, but this one appeals to me for some reason.

I also read the first two volumes of Scalped and really LOVE it. Is Bad Horse a superhero, or just a really good shot?

And then I finished the 6th volume of Preacher, as bad ass as always. This was a great backstory on the Grail and Herr Starr. I think this is a stellar series.

I tried to read two different volumes of Transmetropolitan and could get nothing from it. Gave up.

I am reading Fun Home right now. I like it as a story.

Any CrossGen fans out there? They had an all too brief run at the beginning of the century and then disappeared. With the return of two of their titles, Ruse and Sigil, I decided to check them out again.
They hold up.
I have been rereading Crux. What an amazing title! More hard science fiction than 'super hero' and yet enough super hero to make it interesting. I bought their whole ouvere way back when, and in re reading it, it still comes across as a breath of fresh air. Try some, you won't be disappointed.

Finished with the following volumes:

Ex Machina 2 Tag and 3 Fact v Fiction
Y The Last Man 1 Unmanned
Scalped 4: Gravel in your Guts
DMZ 4 Friendly Fire

Cesar wrote: "And if graphic novels were part of the cultural conversation and selling in significant numbers, that didn't require a film or television adaptation to be a bestseller, than your assessment might have worth..."

Hmmm, I noted: "what films and books do they go for? Break them into the medium with something from the same genre."
I think you have to take a gentle approach to those new to the medium, if they have no interest in spandex clad heroes then starting them on Watchmen would be pointless (as good as it is). But giving a fan of The Big Sleep a copy of Fell Volume 1: Feral City might turn them.
This is an approach I've seen work with a friend who was all about conspiracy theory books and went from Global Frequency Vol. 1: Planet Ablaze and The Losers, vol. 1: Ante Up to Alan Moore's work.
And it doesn't hurt to let folk read The Adventures of Barry Ween, Boy Genius 1...it doesn't all have to be serious artistic stuff, sometimes ass jokes work too.

Aye, love the Goon.
I think the medium is just that though, a way of transmitting the tales or message.
If the only comics in existence were those Japanese romance manga things then I wouldn't be interested in the medium as they would be the only tales available. A genre I have little time for.
But, as with cinema, comics are a broad church. And while I do get a bit like "comic shop guy" from the Simpsons from time to time, I try to be subtle in my evangelism for the artform.
Having said that, I find the way people read any books similar. No point in raving about The Count of Monte Cristo to someone who only reads vampire lit.

Would these even count as graphic novels it the medium today, I just read and

That's a point...what ratio of text to pictures changes a book from an illustrated book to a comic/graphic novel? Is it once the graphic bit becomes integral to the story? So variable for each work...don't think Perrault's Fairy Tales counts but the Gustav Dore (Illustrator) work is incredible.

I think in one of these Macbeth books, the drawing really did help convey the sentiments of the scene and helped the story. In the other, they were just plain scene drawings. I guess I would therefore not really classify either of them as graphic novels because I personally think a graphic novel is one where the graphic portion is as important as the story. That is why the artist gets billing up their with the author.

Has anyone read Crossed, Volume 1? I read a review that made it sound a little over the top depravity wise. I know my library wont carry it. Just wondering if it was worth the investment. I like Ennis.

I liked Preacher's Cassidy's take on the whole goth/vampire thing. Think it was in a single tpb.
But, aye, a wee bit of variety does the soul good.

THIS CONVERSATION IS STUPID

Gabriel709 wrote: "THIS CONVERSATION IS STUPID"

In what way? You obviously feel strongly enough to comment...may even have bothered to read the thread before doing so.
If you perceive it as stupid then please help make it less so.

Dana wrote: "Has anyone read Crossed, Volume 1? I read a review that made it sound a little over the top depravity wise. I know my library wont carry it. Just wondering if it was worth the inv..."

Sorry, haven't read it. Last Ennis I read was Chronicles of Wormwood which was fairly good.

Dana wrote: "Has anyone read Crossed, Volume 1? I read a review that made it sound a little over the top depravity wise. I know my library wont carry it. Just wondering if it was worth the inv..."

Read it from my library and then *ran* to buy a hardcover copy from my local bookstore (Powells). Yes it's pretty vile and depraved - but it struck me that the offense was in service of a very strong message or theme.

Man is a violent animal kept barely in check by a few brain cells near the forehead that overrule our immediate-gratification impulses. Few of us ever imagine, let alone experience, what the beast within would do when freed from the shackles.

Ennis is just the sort of sick imaginative soul to be able to show us exactly what that altereality looks like - vividly. Not an opportunity I would ever want to have missed.

ok if i had a good i would shoot the person who mad this disscussion

Gabriel709 wrote: "ok if i had a good i would shoot the person who mad this disscussion"

Ha! Shoot away! My aetheric generated field of orgone will protect me from your feeble human weapons!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn...

Sorry about that G709...I may have misunderstood your poor syntax...that was an earth language you typed?

I only skimmed through the posts, so if I am repeating something that someone else has said I apologize.

I read an article a week ago on CBR about the difference between graphic novel literature and great graphic novels.

I prefer the Alan Moore and Neil Gaimans of the graphic medium, however, I also enjoy the Beau Smiths. Graphic novels can forget where they came from, they can miss what makes them powerful: The Hero Moment. The defining moment of a character within a given story.

Walt Simonson's run on Thor because Thor gets kicked around and after he takes his beatings he stands up and gives you these moments where you know he's about to unleash the thunder, even as a frog. I also love Moonshadow, but for entirely different reasons.

Any serious discussion of Graphic novels has to allow for the not so serious discussion of who can beat who in a fair or not fair fight.