Spinward Fringe - The Official Group discussion

I'm creating this because - as it stands - the Spinward Fringe series is on a slow road to being produced in bigger, shinier formats.

I'm currently overseeing a re-edit project that will run into 2012, looking into audio books, gearing up for the Encyclopedia & RPG and working a few other things I can't talk about yet. The most anticipated project is the Television / Web Series, however, so that's what this topic will be for.

It's incredibly early in the game. I'm really just setting foot on the path right now, and the road to a Pilot episode of any kind is years long. That's why I want to hear from everyone about the early media, still tests, eventual teleplay samples, and more as it comes.

I'm not shopping the rights to Spinward Fringe around to any networks, producers or any other part of the broadcasting world. Instead, I'm very slowly growing a collection of assets like music rights, 3D model licenses, footage rights and other materials that will be instrumental in producing demonstration media. This demonstration media is out there so I can hear your opinions and make sure early conceptualization is moving in the right direction.

Just like Broadcasts 0-7 are critical to demonstrating what kind of show Spinward Fringe would be, these early steps will be important to delivering a really appealing and exciting visual experience. Unlike Broadcasts 0-7, where I couldn't talk about what I had planned much at all, I am happy to share my plans with everyone and answer questions about any facet of early production and the future.

I'm also open to advice. This is a learning process for me as well and i've been lucky enough to have business training, people who care about what I'm doing with good tips, and just enough financial support to get the wheels turning very slowly. If things continue this way, the show will appear eventually regardless of whether a network or web presence decides to option the show.

Pose all your questions and offer all your suggestions. I can answer most, and will consider everything carefully before temporarily rejecting or accepting anything.

RL

[Important point: Let's keep this discussion spoiler free so anyone just stumbling in can see what's going on.]

Here's a question posed by Mike in the Welcome! Introduce Yourself! topic regarding the early version of the Spinward Fringe Broadcast 0 trailer. (Found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJqAr7...


Mike wrote: "Randolph wrote: "I'm deliriously happy to see such a good turn out so far.

To answer your question Patrick, I'm slowly stepping foot into other mediums with Spinward Fringe content at this point. ..."

I wish! I acquired the rights to the footage I used through vendors that supply the History Channel for shows like The Universe. The music was acquired from another vendor. Thankfully, it's not as expensive as it seems. All I can take credit for is the editing and crappy stand-in voiceover. The whole trailer cost about $72.00 and took a weekend.

There is some home-grown CGI in the works, but it'll focus on the characters and scenery. The point of all this stuff is to eventually build up to a concept demo of the first few minutes of a Spinward Fringe television or web series. Development from there depends on budget and opportunity.

I'm glad you like what's there though! Opinions matter the most during these early development stages.

RL

For Audiobook format, some of the best I've heard so far is the pair that did the readings for the "Wheel of Time" series for Robert Jordan. Their names are: Kate Reading & Michael Kramer. Excellent reading, they voiced a little different for each character, and really brought you into the story on a whole other level. Was excellently done, and I'd recommend them. As to what they make, etc, have not a clue.

For film - I'm biased towards animated as you get exactly what you want from the characters and backdrops, etc. However I know this throws off some of the viewing populace for some reason I can't fathom. As long as it's decently done animation (Anime studios like Sunrise's "PlanetES"; or Gonzo's "Full Metal Panic"); Dreamworks Entertainment's "Wall-E", etc); or the people who did
"Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within"; or Satelite who did "Macross Zero: OVA" (search this and watch the animation for ep 1, it's AMAZING, very realistic) then most shouldn't have a problem. On the other hand real-life actors you have contracts and other stuff to iron out, overall you're looking about the same either way, and a lousy actor/actress pick can cripple a film instantly for many viewers.

David wrote: "For Audiobook format, some of the best I've heard so far is the pair that did the readings for the "Wheel of Time" series for Robert Jordan. Their names are: Kate Reading & Michael Kramer. Excellen..."

I'll approach Reading and Kramer or their representatives when a couple more books have undergone their final edit. I doubt I can afford them, but there's no harm in asking.

As for the argument of animation versus live action, right now I'm testing an animated style that is inexpensive and fairly simple. Eventually I'll be developing a few costume pieces myself, but live action costume testing is a long distance away. There will also be a few props coming through the store.

Either way, I'd be looking to produce 24 episodes per year or more, so the animation would have to be simple and appealing at the same time. I don't want to bog the production down with the expense of producing something with the visual depth of Wall-E or the Final Fantasy film(s). It would take a year to produce 4 episodes, six years to produce an 18 episode season, even with Pixar, a major studio.

If it turns out that live action is the better option, then there are many "trap doors" built into the series so major characters can be replaced with brand new actors. A contract dispute would result in the death of a character. Some characters are written so they can come back with a different look (or in this case, actor).

I'll be posting a test shot of Ayan rendered in 3D very soon.

Personally, I'd always prefer live action. Not to say that animation, graphic or otherwise, doesn't have it's perks, but I find that animated characters, regardless of their realism, seem to lack the nuances of their role. It's hard to capture real emotion with an animation, at least an animation which can realistically be accomplished for a 24 episode season.

Macross is an excellent example of what CAN be done (my first foray into the world of comics, so the reference brought back great memories). However, I'm a cynic at heart, and have my doubts the power of this animated series can be duplicated.

In my head, I've always pictured Spinward Fringe to be the prime time love-child of Firefly and Battlestar Gallactica. Yeah. Try to wrap your brain around that one.

Nikkihanna wrote: "Personally, I'd always prefer live action. Not to say that animation, graphic or otherwise, doesn't have it's perks, but I find that animated characters, regardless of their realism, seem to lack t..."

I won't lie, the reason why I'm doing 3D renders now is to try and establish a look and see how it turns out. I'm also working on real world props though the Spinward Fringe store, which is slowly ramping up and getting ready to open. That store will be the primary fund raiser for the show when it's ready.

So, at this point I'm not leaning in either direction specifically, just testing when I have the opportunity. Hearing your opinion and everyone else's helps. I'll probably be testing both for a long time though, especially since the 3D renders can serve as story boards for live action, or the live action props and potentially actors in costume can serve as reference material if the show goes 3D CGI.

Thank you for contributing. :)

RL

I'm more of a live action fan when it comes to anything sic-fi, and anime for fantasy...space just doesn't look right animated and magic doesn't look right in live action. I have great hopes that this series will end up on tv, but also great fears that it would get screwed over like Firefly or more recently, SG-U, ending mid storyline.

Leo wrote: "I'm more of a live action fan when it comes to anything sic-fi, and anime for fantasy...space just doesn't look right animated and magic doesn't look right in live action. I have great hopes that ..."

If we're really lucky, the books will do so well that I'll be able to produce the shows without a network. They can't cancel you if you're entertaining their viewers elsewhere.

I'd love it if the show appeared on iTunes, Netflix and on the Internet instead of going to the big networks. If the networks want it, then they can buy limited rights to the seasons - much like Paramount did with the various Star Trek shows. If the show gets cancelled off the air, the show will go on.

All the world is a digital stage, and the networks are the last to be ready for it.

A little update:

Recently I had the rare opportunity to see a tech demo of one of the animation packages I was looking at. Even more importantly, the style of the tech demo (which required a NDA signature to see), was very similar to some of what I was looking at for Spinward Fringe.

In short, it was one of the worst things I've ever seen. In motion the features of the animation package - which must remain nameless, I signed something - looked cheap and lacked mass. The animator's taste was low, and the models just didn't function well in motion either.

I will probably use CGI for still work, mostly because I'm far from being able to afford models and costuming for so much as a book cover (I'll get there). My thoughts on whether or not I would produce a computer animated version of Spinward Fringe have changed from 'possible' to 'highly unlikely'.

A few people who mentioned that it is easy to do CGI wrong couldn't have been more right. On the other hand, everything else I'm looking into is getting cheaper and easier to accomplish.

Good and bad news then, good that you were able to see before having to buy into it, and bad that it's unlikely to have this as an alternative if needed. No use using if it's no where near the quality we all want.

David wrote: "Good and bad news then, good that you were able to see before having to buy into it, and bad that it's unlikely to have this as an alternative if needed. No use using if it's no where near the qual..."

Honestly, I think I should have been suspicious when they told me I had to sign a non disclosure agreement. ha!

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be able to squeeze a few stills out of the tools I already have. The covers for the next 3 books I'm releasing are pretty much taken care of, so that's not much of a worry.

As far as costumes are concerned, well, the first step is the store. Models and actors are starving for work in my neck of the woods, so when it comes time to costume testing in practical photography, I don't think that'll be a problem.

Should be a fun hobby for 2011, while writing will be the full time gig.

I had seen a picture of a girl in "space combat armor". Wouldn't be a stretch to see her look like Stephanie Vega. I'll look around and see if it still exists. Unfortunately I couldn't find who actually did the photo.

David wrote: "I had seen a picture of a girl in "space combat armor". Wouldn't be a stretch to see her look like Stephanie Vega. I'll look around and see if it still exists. Unfortunately I couldn't find who act..."

Well, I'm trying to find a digital stand in model for the armoured vacsuits, and I think I'm close. Still wouldn't mind seeing that photo.

hi, with Netflix now doing first runs of House of Cards, has that made the online option even more viable for a live action show?

I loved Nikki's comment of Spinward being a mix of Firefly and BG, as my first thought was a mix of BG and Farscape.

In a lot of ways, your thoughts for what you want to do remind me of J Michael Straczynski and how he planned for Babylon 5 and it's 5 year story arc. The ways he weaved stories planned for season 4 into season 2, so you didn't understand what was going on until you saw season 4, I always found very enjoyable.

I truly hope you can get this worked out in a way that allows you to do what YOU want free of the typical network mess that kills all the best shows too soon.

To be completely honest, Netflix doesn't pay enough right now to cover the financing for a show.

On the other hand, it really IS great that they're happy to pick up shows as they run (see Mr. Sunshine), because they don't care if you distribute to other channels like iTunes, your own site, or other small cable channels like SPACE (our SyFy channel in Canada - which still plays mostly science fiction reruns). So it's really cool that they could be part of the solution.

All that is years away though, so I'm hoping that other options that can work along side Netflix start coming up. It'll be easier to find initial financing for Spinward Fringe if there are a lot of distribution options for it.

As for conventional TV programming, well, if I'm really, REALLY lucky a major network will pick up the show post-completion, meaning they'd have no control over the content, but will air blocks of episodes. Star Trek: The Next Generation and the ones that followed did exactly that, but then, that was Star Trek.

Anyway, time for me to get to work!

RL

I hope you are REALLY lucky.

Have you thought about music / soundtracks - I think rage against the machine fits the theme well and would make an awesome soundtrack just as it did for the matrix (know your enemy, voice of the voiceless, fistfull of steel, born as ghost)

Marcus wrote: "Have you thought about music / soundtracks - I think rage against the machine fits the theme well and would make an awesome soundtrack just as it did for the matrix (know your enemy, voice of the v..."

I write to music, actually, so there's no question that music would be a major part of the series. If I could license anything under the sun, I'd probably start with Apocalyptica, Conjure One, Enigma, Lacuna Coil, Linkin Park, ZZ Top (For Frost & Stephanie's theme - Rough Boy), They Might Be Giants, Stone Sour, Stone Temple Pilots, Ra, Slipknot and about a dozen other bands / solo artists.

Dream Composers would include: Howard Shore, Bear McReary (but not as a series regular), Danny Elfman, Klaus Badelt (Especially), Jonathan Davis (of Korn - See Queen of the Damned Soundtrack for his work).

I would stay away from a lot of talent that worked on the Matrix, simply because they did such a good job on the theme and style of the soundtrack on the first film that I wouldn't be interested in mirroring or extending it into Spinward Fringe.

The above list IS a dream list - if I had to find music tomorrow on a budget, I'd start listening to brand new indie acts, of which there are thousands. I'm sure I could find the sounds I wanted. Considering the viability of a Spinward Fringe series with home funding is based on 'found talent' instead of known names, that would certainly extend to the music as well as actors and many other important positions.

If I were to start work on a web series tomorrow, the only experienced hire would most likely be the director. A TV director like Peter John DeLuise http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0217938/#D... or http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0939869/#D... because they have extensive experience in Science Fiction television, produce solid work and can stick to a budget. They also work extensively in Vancouver.

Aaaaaanyway.... that's enough of me dumping my series plan onto the webbernet for one day...

Thanks for the question Marcus!

RL

Alexei Zhakharov would be another great choice. He does the music for Egosofts X Series of space sim games and he has a bunch of his work from the series up on his facebook and soundcloud profiles.

I love some of your musical choices (especially Apocalyptica, Lacuna Coil, and your Frost/Stephanie themes), I do some music myself but I'm far too new at it and nowhere near presumptuous enough to toot my own horn here.

John Murphy (Sunshine) and John Frizzell (most Dark Castle movies, like Ghost Ship) would be my suggestions for adding to a list of potential dream composers. As an example,listen to Frizzell's Go To Hell from Ghost Ship while reading Ramirez' final scene, with the action in silent slow motion except for the muted sound of the dialogue.

RL, on the topic of graphics and alternatives to live action, have you (or anyone else) had a chance to see the new Star Wars:The Old Republic trailer RETURN that was shown at E3 today? I could watch a show based on those graphics all day! And the smuggler who starts in custody, very Jacob'esque. Guns, long coat, cool hat (did Jacob have a hat?), brazen in the face of impending doom :)

anyway, no idea what it takes to make those in-game vidoes, but if that were a doable option, something like that would be awesome.

Probably Zbrush, 3D Studio or Lightwave for the creation of assets and maybe even the final render unless that was done using the in-game engine.

James wrote: "RL, on the topic of graphics and alternatives to live action, have you (or anyone else) had a chance to see the new Star Wars:The Old Republic trailer RETURN that was shown at E3 today? I could wa..."

I've seen the trailer, which was fantastic, and can say that with current technology it takes a lot more money to do a full blown CGI television / web series than it does live action. Whether that'll change in the next five years, I don't know, but I doubt it. There's also a big time issue. It takes a lot longer to animate a scene than it does to shoot it.

Having said that, there are examples of CGI mini-shows that are done on a shoe string using free or cheap software and off the shelf models. Sadly, they have one thing in common: they are all absolutely terrible. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the ones I'd rather focus on are the time/technology/expense issues. The shorts I've seen that suffer from those three limitations / problems always look sub-par at best, and I'd rather do the Spinward Fringe series right, especially if I end up doing it myself in a few years.

The Return trailer (here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygln3A... ) is amazing, but it was made by an entire department of Bioware who have incredible experience and great funding. If I could produce 45 minute episodes every week for 30 weeks a year at that quality for a price that would be sustainable I'd jump at it in a heartbeat.

On a much more positive note, there are things going on in the background that may legitimize the entire Spinward Fringe series in the eyes of more than one industry, increasing the chances that the right eyes may be on this little universe sooner rather than later. Sadly, I can't go into it more than that, but be sure that once the time is right, I'll be shouting the news from a mountaintop near you.

RL

Looks like the finger crossing may pay off quicker than anyone could have anicipated. That is awesome news Randy.

I noticed that in considering animation, "2D" didn't seem to be an option. I know that 2D animation is regretfully considered analogous to "cartoons", and as such may have limited appeal to US audiences (while conversely, Japanese audiences would consider it on equal terms with live action). However, I would assume that production costs wold be significantly less, and I've been very entertained by quality produced animations. WB has turned out some very nice stuff in the last 6-7 years with Justice League and related properties.

BTW, I discovered "Origins" in March this year, and began reading "Fragments" today. Thank you, Randolph, for a very entertaining story, and a universe of characters whose company I have come to enjoy.

Randolph, I have just heard of a program possibly involving a mr. Spielberg that picks a potential candidate and helps create a piolet to bring to a studio. The exact terms are schechy at best and a long and drawn out letter to said above party may help in securing SF a fighting chance at being a major television production, also just beetween you and me, your concerns about the lack of creativity and the discarding of authors will probably not be a problem if it is Mr. Spielberg that is the programs contender. In the past he consults the author as well as a creative panel of authors under your persuasion level of cource. Look into it. I have also been finding out about the RPG and I know that there are many things to go into. I am an apple developer as well as a developer for epic games and a UDK developer. I belive for the SF Seiries, a mmorpg would be best in a freeroaming universe so that is beyond your capabilities right now no offense intended. I could get a board of developers together but I would rather have your explicit supervision. This will be a long and intensive game developing time, I think we should have no set storyline but we will continuously add new races. I have a hilarious way of getting into the sol system but I will elaborate in the future, let's cinverse over email, haydengutt@gmail.com

"Randolph, I have just heard of a program possibly involving a mr. Spielberg that picks a potential candidate and helps create a piolet to bring to a studio."

I've known about this for a few years now, thank you for bringing it up though. This isn't a direction I'm interested in for many reasons at the moment.

"I have also been finding out about the RPG and I know that there are many things to go into. I am an apple developer as well as a developer for epic games and a UDK developer. I belive for the SF Seiries, a mmorpg would be best in a freeroaming universe so that is beyond your capabilities right now no offense intended. I could get a board of developers together but I would rather have your explicit supervision."

No offence taken. I don't have a team of developers or know people who can bankroll a project of this scale. I'd be insane to think I did.

Right now I'm not interested in developing anything outside of what's already in the works. If anyone is working on anything, I ask that you please stop immediately.

I am always impressed and surprised by the enthusiasm of everyone here, but for many reasons ranging from creative to legal and everything in between, any project has to be initiated by and controlled by yours truly. The series and intellectual property is still young, there are projects in slow but sure development already, and the future is bright for Spinward Fringe. It must remain a closed property for now, however.

RL

Randolph wrote: "Leo wrote: "I'm more of a live action fan when it comes to anything sic-fi, and anime for fantasy...space just doesn't look right animated and magic doesn't look right in live action. I have great..."

Something that you might consider at this point would be to contact a local modeling school, or possibly drama club. This might give you live action models for still pictures or "home video" at a very reasonable cost. Problem might be in costume though. I think you would have to develop wardrobe on your own but they might also be able to give you leads in that department as well. You also might be able to get some good drawings from a school art department (Sorry, I don't know how well you are at drawing, so thought I should include that thought as well.)

When it comes time for the audiobook I hope you'll go with a professional narrator(s).

I've turned off perfectly good books because of a terrible narrator.

The single worst narrator I've ever endured was Casey Affleck. He narrated Sex on the Moon: The Amazing Story Behind the Most Audacious Heist in History which was such an entertaining story that I pressed on, griping and fussing at Affleck all the way through.

I must admit I can think of no one I would rather hear read Randys books in audio form than the Captain himself. He has a lovely voice, just listen to the podcasts and hear for yourselves. Not only that, but who else would understand the "feel" of the book, suspense, humour, tension etc, than the author who wrote it. I think if an author has a great voice, like Randy, and if he can squeeze it in between all his other endeavours, then why not?

I'll check out the podcast, I don't believe I've ever heard it.

you could always try Kickstarter.com for funding. With a good hook, you may be surprised at the people that come out of the woodwork there.