Jane Austen discussion

Post here all general discussion on Pride & Prejudice.

QUESTION: Which Bennet Sister Are You?

I was sitting at a local cafe, reading a not-so-interesting book and drinking coffee, when I overheard a couple of older ladies at the next table discussing Pride & Prejudice. I couldn't help it; they were talking so loudly.

I hate to admit it but I actually found their conversation more interesting than annoying. At one point, one of them asked the other as to which Bennet sister would she be if she were in Pride and Prejudice. The much older lady responded with, "Definitely Jane! She's very sweet."

So, I wanna ask every Jane Austen fan (woman or man) out there, which of the Bennet sisters in Pride & Prejudice do you most identify with and why?

(Oh, and if you're odd enough to wonder, my answer is Elizabeth Bennet; that combination of defiance and triumph in her character kinda mirrors mine---can be both an advantage and a disadvantage as a human being.)

Overall I'm probably Jane. There's part of me that would like to be a little more Elizabeth, but mostly Jane.:)

Funny you should post this. I took a quiz a while back on which Jane Austen character I would be.. and I came back Elizabeth. =)

I definitely see alot of myself in her, the fiery side and the non-ability to keep my mouth shut when I really, really should...lol

It definitely has it advantages and disadvantages.

Jenn, where did you find that poll? Sounds like fun! :-) I think that I am a combination of Elizabeth and Jane but, if I must choose, I guess I would say Elizabeth. For my internal dialogue, I am definitely a Lizzie--but I don't really vocalize it; also, I certainly TRY to be Jane and think the best of people.

I think it was somewhere on facebook... something a friend sent me... hmm... I'll have to root around and see if I can find it again for you Kathryn.

I am definately Elizabeth. I too have the 'fiery side' as you put it Jenn. I love to read and walk, I am practical and think about what's best for everyone, I can be a little bit prejudice, I stick up for my sisters, I am modest (or I try to be) and under no circumstances would I ever marry for anything less than love.

yeah Elizabeth...witty and brainee

i'm sorry but Jane kinda dull, and if you are talking about fiery side no one can beat Lydia!

Agape, Lydia's more than fiery; she's OOC! (Being out of control is sometimes an inevitability in one's youth, I guess. More so on Lydia's part.)

@charmless: errr when Jane austen was around, lydia's character was OOC...what would ppl call it now? hehehe bold and beautiful? (j/k)

uhm i think we should make a poll about less desirable character? no?

Mrs. Bennet, Lydia, Mr. Wickham, Lady Catherine, Ms. Bingley...quite many it seems...

Um, today, I think Lydia would be in one of those Joe Francis videos. Girls Gone Wild in Meryton or Brighton perhaps? ;-) (I kid. . . that's terrible! Hehe.)

I don't think I would actually have a "less desirable character" from the book; I find each and every character either amusing, if not admirable.

However, if I had to chose, I'd choose Mr. Collins---one of the biggest (and dumbest!) kiss-asses in the history of English literature. The first time I came across Mr. Collins' character in the book, I was quite amused indeed! His blind devotion and pride when it comes to Lady Catherine is a hoot!

Lydia is not such an undesirable, she's just a follish kid. As for Mr Wickham, he's a worthless cheater. Miss Bingley is just a desperate woman trying to make a good marriage. Mrs Bennet..well, she is funny lol!. Lady Catherine's just protectign her family from and unconvenient marrige... I can understand her too.

If there are a JA character who I can't stand, that certainly would be Lucy Steel from Sense & Sensibility: she's hypocrit, false, evil, lier and she enjoys with other's people pain. I really hated her!!! But I know, that's another book, hahaha.

Charmless, I absolutely think Lydia would have found her way to a "Girls Gone Wild" video. Set Austen in the 90's or 2000's, send her on spring break, girls gone wild could be the thing that the family has to hush up (LOL). I think we'd have to put Elizabeth with Jane at college, something appropriately snooty, leaving room for Darcy to have been someplace snootier...

so far Lizzy got 6 votes, and Jane 1!

@Beatrix, that is nice! you can find pardon in every unfavorite character :)

well, i think i can even pardon Mr. Collins foolishness, simply because he is half-witted :)

between Mr. Collins and Mrs. Bennet, who do you think has the most absurd character? of well this is outrageously out of topic for sure!

I think Ms. Austen meant for both characters to be equally absurd. Mr. Collins in his piggy patronizing ways and Mrs. Bennet's in her gullibility and constant denial about what's important and what's not.

Btw, if anyone's interested, I've created a new group called Song Lyrics That I Like. Come and join the fun! :-)

I would have to go with Darcy. I like the male characters better, :)

QUESTION:

I am currently rereading Pride and Prejudice for the who knows what time! I noticed something interesting this time through though. When Charlotte and Lizzy are discussing Jane and Bingly in Chapter 6 she says that a woman should show more affection than she may feel because if she conceals her affection she may lose the opportunity of fixing the gentleman.

So now I am totally curious as to weather this way of thinking was a result of personal experience? Do ya'll think that this could be one of the reasons she is now 27 and has yet to marry? Could it possibly have led to her slightly cynical way of thinking? Could it have been a reason for her desiring and accepting Mr. Collins?

Charlotte is one of those integral characters to story that doesn't have much of a back story to explain her situation in life or way of thinking. So now I am totally curious about her character in general.

That's a great questions, Byranna! I'm currently rewatching the BBC version, which isn't reading the book of course, but I feel it follows the book pretty closely.
I've always been intrigued by Charlotte's statement. I'd assumed it was simply her view of match-making, and that she was never really a romantic. But, perhaps you are right, perhaps someone in her past slipped away. I can't recall... is Charlotte's situation in life not too great? Is that "why" she's been single so long? As you said, we don't get a lot of back story...

I believe Charlotte's situation is pretty dire- her father is a "Sir" but everyone knows it's just a meaningless, bestowed title and they are only modestly comfortable. She will inherit very little and I think already feels she is a burden on her family. I agree that the comment most likely rose from her letting someone slip away, although she is described as very plain, so it may be that she has figured out how desperate her situation is and has developed a philosophy of action. I really like Charlotte and wish she had done better than Mr. Collins (although she thinks she has done quite well enough).

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about her feeling like a burden to her family.

SPOILERS!

Actually, I've just thought of two correlations (whether they were meant to be or not). But, 1) that theme, of your responsibility to the family, occurs more than once, what with Lizzy feeling that perhaps she had an obligation to marry Darcy - that it would bring up the status of the rest of her family... right?
And 2) Isn't part of the reason Darcy says he sways Bingly from marrying Jane because Darcy cannot perceive any definite affection from her end? So, in that case, oddly, Charlotte had a point. Now, I don't think we are meant to totally agree with Charlotte, that you are supposed to express more than you feel, even when you aren't sure if you love the guy yet, but perhaps she's not so off as it may at first appear... hm. Quite interesting. :)

Reading Jane Austen's Letters, I came across one that mentioned a portrait she'd found that resembled, to her mind, Jane Bennet. Check out this link to see the portrait and to read the portion of the letter she wrote to her sister Cassandra about it: http://historicalromanceuk.blogspot.c...

I think it's very interesting, but I wish she'd found something similar for Lizzy.

Smokinjbc wrote: "I believe Charlotte's situation is pretty dire- her father is a "Sir" but everyone knows it's just a meaningless, bestowed title and they are only modestly comfortable. She will inherit very little..."

i agree with you.

i think Charlotte is simply being realistic. she is also the most reasonable character in the story... her reason to marry Mr. Collins is acceptable. it sounds a bit calculative..well.. in a nice way!

I am Jane. I also took a quiz and it said I was Jane, and she is probably my favorite character so I am happy about that.

I would go father to say that men had the "responsibility" to marry a person of fortune, women would have the "necessity" of marrying well. Jane Austen was very much shuffled around from rich relative to not-so-rich relative with her mother and sister in tow because all three had no one to "keep" them. Women have to show more affection than they feel because they HAVE to get married (Bingly was hooked and so Jane must reel him in). It's like one of us deciding if we "feel" like getting a job. Watch how your parents and relatives treat you over time when you still can't find one...

Michaela wrote: "I would go father to say that men had the "responsibility" to marry a person of fortune, women would have the "necessity" of marrying well. Jane Austen was very much shuffled around from rich relat..."

I agree. And will add that men still seem to feel the need to be in a "well off" relationship. When as a woman you don't have money, even in this day and age, men run. This is one of the many reasons I feel Jane Austen's stories are more popular then ever. We as a society still see ourselves within her characters.

Elizabeth. I can make witty, sometimes scathing replies and I love to have a good time, but I'm not overly wild like Lydia.

While I certainly can't be a Bennet sister, I did want share my thoughts on the novel as a whole. All I can say is that "Pride and Prejudice" is just a marvelous 'laugh-out-loud' book that deserves to be read again and again. If you have a friend in low spirits, give 'em a copy; it'll be sure to bring 'em around!

I know that this may seem heretical to ardent Janeites, but I don't think that "Pride and Prejudice" is Austen's best effort (mind you, it was one of her very earliest works; originally entitled, "First Impressions"). Don't get me wrong, this novel is certainly in my top-twenty; but I believe that Austen honed her craft considerably over time and delivered her real masterpieces in "Emma" and "Persuasion". I surmise that if we polled Austen on this issue, she'd agree. Is "Pride and Prejudice" the novel to introduce a new reader to Austen for the first time? You betcha! They'd be hooked from the first sentence; just as I was! Cheers! Chris

I took a quiz too and was nearly 100% Elizabeth. I am not nearly sweet-tempered enough to be Jane. I think part of why I love the book is because I am Elizabeth. I get her, so it's nice to see all turn out well for her.


And Christopher, though I don't agree with you on Emma, I adore Persuasion, and don't think it is rated highly enough.

If I were to be a Bennet sister, I would probably say that I would be Jane (although I am a man!). She's just always so sweet, always trying to think the best of everybody and always believing that everybody is as good as her. Although, I'm not saying I'm quite as perfect as her but I don't have the same fiery aspect that Elizabeth does.
Christopher, it has always been hard for me to decide between Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility and Persuasion, but I think that Pride and Prejudice is so universally loved because of the timelessness of all of the characters. However, the characters in Persuasion, such as Mary Elliott, are so comical that you just love them, and the Dashwood sisters in Sense and Sensibiltiy are also wonderful... a true dilemma!

Have there been books or journal articles that speculate or discuss the fates of Kitty and Mary Bennet?

I've always kinda wondered whether Mary eventually became a spinster or found a Mr. Collins-type of husband, and if Kitty eventually broke out to live an independent life. Or did Mr. Bennet really kinda "imprison" Kitty for a decade before she could publicly go anywhere else without family interference?

Any thoughts?

In the Hollywood 1940 movie (starring Greer Garson as Elizabeth), the last scene showed Kitty flirting with Wickham's friend Denny and Mary making eyes at the church curate (obviously added to round out the HEA).

That's the only non-Austen ending about them I've seen.

That sounds so 1940's doesn't it? The movies in those days tried to cheer everything up, understandably. I STILL haven't seen that one. Maybe soon, I will catch up on my old movie watching!

I'm the other way - I need to see the newer Austen movies! - lol Somehow I got to Colin Firth (Darcy) & Jeremy Northam (Knightley) & never got any further ....

The Mrs. Bennett (Mary Boland) in the 1940 movie does hold her own against later actresses, though - she is hilarious!

I know the views here at Jane Austen group are divided, but I think the Matthew Macfadyen (as Darcy) Pride & Prejudice is a beautiful movie.

Quoting Christopher: "I know that this may seem heretical to ardent Janeites, but I don't think that "Pride and Prejudice" is Austen's best effort (mind you, it was one of her very earliest works; originally entitled, "First Impressions"). Don't get me wrong, this novel is certainly in my top-twenty; but I believe that Austen honed her craft considerably over time and delivered her real masterpieces in "Emma" and "Persuasion"."


I think the basic premise of "Pride and Prejudice"-boy hates girl- is more common, but perhaps this is true because Austen made it popular. I agree that creating a heroine as flawed as Emma and developing such a redemptive theme in persuasion is evidence of more mature work, but I don't think that makes it necessarily higher quality. "Pride and Prejudice" beats all Austen works in terms of comedic potential and as she was a satirist, I don't think this is insignificant.

Robin, I've been meaning to check out that older American version but I've kinda put it off for fear of disappointment. (Based on the short clip that I caught on YouTube at one point, the Garson-Olivier banter tends to be a little over the top. I know that Olivier was a Shakespearean actor but still. . .)

Honestly, the only version of P&P that I've seen and still really like is the BBC's Jennifer Ehle/Colin Firth six-episode serial that aired in the mid-'90s. I saw the most recent one with Keira Knightley and as much as I like her performance in Atonement, Ms. Knightley's Elizabeth Bennet is just isn't at par with Ms. Ehle's.

Anyway, I digress. I'm still looking for published discussions on the fates of Mary and Kitty Bennet. Hehe.

Thanks for the tip! ("Mary making eyes at the church curate. . ."---I absolutely find that very amusing! Thanks.)


Robin wrote: "In the Hollywood 1940 movie (starring Greer Garson as Elizabeth), the last scene showed Kitty flirting with Wickham's friend Denny and Mary making eyes at the church curate (obviously added to rou..."

Rachael wrote: "Quoting Christopher: "I know that this may seem heretical to ardent Janeites, but I don't think that "Pride and Prejudice" is Austen's best effort (mind you, it was one of her very earliest works; ..."

Well said - totally agree!

Charmless wrote: "Robin, I've been meaning to check out that older American version but I've kinda put it off for fear of disappointment. (Based on the short clip that I caught on YouTube at one point, the Garson-O..."

I have seen several versions of P&P and the 1940s version is the absolute worse from an Austen perspective. It takes so many liberties with the story - one wonders if they should really have called it P&P. I was actually offended by the ending and it's portrayal of Lady Catherine de Bourgh.

It's not a bad movie, the actors are great, witty and funny. It's just not Pride and Prejudice. As long as you go in with that in mind - you may not be disappointed. My 2 cents.

Rachael wrote: "Quoting Christopher: "I know that this may seem heretical to ardent Janeites, but I don't think that "Pride and Prejudice" is Austen's best effort (mind you, it was one of her very earliest works; ..."

I love the points brought out here. Comparing Austen novels is comparing your favorite colors, right? Which is better? So hard!

To me, the novels that follow the excellent P&P do bring more to the table. Where you may get an argument is that Austen was MORE than a satirist.

For example, in Emma, this circle of village inhabitants unfolds and interacts much more than in P&P. Highbury is this central turning wheel.

With Persuasion, you're given this beautiful depth of emotion to savor. It's anguish and internal and different than worrying because one's sister has run off with an officer and the social consequences. Now I sound like I am criticizing P&P, but I'm not. Just thinking about the differences.

Then when you read the manuscript of Sanditon, and think of what that could have been. That would have been an amazing story.

Rachael wrote: "Quoting Christopher: "I know that this may seem heretical to ardent Janeites, but I don't think that "Pride and Prejudice" is Austen's best effort (mind you, it was one of her very earliest works; ..."

Rachael, what I was alluding to was Austen's craft - the actually writing style. I agree that the plot of Pride and Prejudice is a good one and it is most certainly laugh-out-loud funny. I think, however, that Austen, with Emma, has probably written the finest novel ever written in the English language. It is the wordcraft that makes Emma shine so brightly.

Similarly, Persuasion may be the finest novel ever written about long-lived true love; and as Sarah has so eloquently put it, it is the reader's ability to feel and empathize with Anne Elliot and Frederick Wentworth that makes Persuasion work so well.

Finally, I love Mansfield Park too. It is a rich, complex, and very complicated novel, with nuance layered on top of nuance. It has its comedic moments, loaded with social satire, but also includes the angst and depth of human emotion associated with finding and feeling true love; and not just related to Fanny Price, but several of the other characters as well. Sarah, has the right of it, "comparing Austen novels is comparing your favorite colors," it probably just can't be done. We all see and feel different things with each book that we read, just as it should be. I was just giving all of you my two-cents' worth. Cheers! Chris

Sounds like we need a new book from Charlotte's point of view that gives us a little background info!

I love the new direction this discussion group has chosen..

I remember Michaela comparing Jane Austen to Charlotte in an earlier thread, I think she was saying that JA was not a real beauty. Even Elizabeth Bennet is not really a great beauty, she is charming, and certainly wittier and more conversational than her older sister. Jane is shown only conversing with Elizabeth and therefore maybe finds herself at a disadvantage in waiting for Mr. Bingley who also is under the influence of his sister and Mr. Darcy's social ambitions.

And as for Charlotte Lucas, I guess we must remember it was not a very large neighbourhood and she hardly leaves home, so I guess it isn't very surprising that she welcomes an opportunity in the way of Mr. Collins' introduction into the Bennet household, maybe he's her Mr. Darcy !! :D if we go by the notion that Mr. Darcy is Mr. Right for the girl in question. I think she's described as plain in the book, maybe we should show her the glitter pot...I'm sorry, the power's out and I'm really bored. Hmm...would anyone want to read Charlotte Lucas story if it starts off as..."I have always been described as plain ...." ?? And she gets a secret power on her wedding night...??/

I am thinking about the quiz and I would love to be one of the characters in P&P, let me think for a while...

I would really like to read about what happens to Caroline Bingley.

Nausheen wrote: "I would really like to read about what happens to Caroline Bingley."

Well, that's what I thought. Which then spurred me on to write about Caroline Bingley in THE OTHER MR DARCY.
Not just putting in a plug, but I really felt that Caroline got a raw deal in P&P. She wasn't evil (she prevents Bingley for knowing about Jane being in town, but she's following Darcy's instructions) but Elizabeth makes fun of her all the time for trying to get Darcy's attention. But at the end, when they're in Pemberley, even Elizabeth acknowledges that Caroline is jealous of her, understandably, and who hasn't behaved "badly" when they're jealous? So I started with the premise that Caroline was very much in love with Darcy (which is hardly surprising, aren't half the women who read P&P half in love with him?), and took it from there, where she had to pick up the pieces and get on with her life. Before I knew it, I was writing the book! I learned a lot about what made Caroline Bingley who she is in the process.
The thing is, people forget that the novel is as much about prejudice as about pride. Elizabeth is prejudiced against pretty much everyone except Jane, Mr Bennett, and Wickham. She is very judgemental. She even judges Charlotte, who is one of her closest friends, for marrying Mr Collins, when she knews very well her friend's circumstances. Elizabeth is very charming and witty, so we like her, but she isn't very empathic, and she doesn't exactly try to get to know what motivates other people. If she can't understand her friend wanting desperately to get married, how can she understand someone like Caroline?

The Other Mr Darcy

Monica, that made me feel really good. Thanks :D

I would love to read your book, umm....we don't get a lot of books here, but I sure will keep looking. I feel I agree with a lot of your thoughts about Elizabeth and Caroline already...

Georgiana Darcy? hmmm...I am thinking Barbara Cartland...she may already be done to death several times over and over.

Charmless wrote: "Have there been books or journal articles that speculate or discuss the fates of Kitty and Mary Bennet?"

I'm not quite sure if you're meaning scholarly discussions or continuations, but I came across The Independence of Miss Mary Bennett by Colleen McCulloch and thought I'd mention it. :)

Wow, someone actually took on Mary Bennet! Lol.

Thanks Robin, I'll check it out.

Robin wrote: "Charmless wrote: "Have there been books or journal articles that speculate or discuss the fates of Kitty and Mary Bennet?"

I'm not quite sure if you're meaning scholarly discussions or continuatio..."

I just finished this book. It's the second of Austen's books I've read. I love it. It has definitely been promoted to my favorite book. A relationship that develops in such a way that Elizabeth and Darcy's does is beyond entertaining and incredibly witty. I think I loved it so much because I can relate well to Elizabeth's personality. I can be pretty judgmental and sometimes I speak my mind when I shouldn't. I'm loving Austen so much. I can't wait to read more.

Well, Lizzie, I hope there is a Darcy out there for you, too! So much fun to read Austen!

Hi, I am new here!

I am having a hard time understanding why in Chapter 6 in the first paragraph of Pride and Prejudice it says this: "....but Elizabeth still saw superciliousness in their treatment of everybody, hardly excepting even her sister....

Maybe I am mistaken and I am in no position to edit Ms. Austen, but I don't understand why it is "excepting" and not "accepting".

And my other question is when Mr. Darcy first sees Elizabeth he says "I am in no humour at present to give consequence to young ladies who are slighted by other men."

What does that mean? I understand slighted means offended, but I don't understand why he is saying that about Elizabeth!

Appreciate your help and clarification.

Hi, Asiah!

To answer your first question -- Austen does mean to use the word 'except', not 'accept' as you're thinking. Elizabeth is observing Mr. Bingley's sisters, who have professed to only really care for her sister Jane out of their new acquaintances in the county. If that were the case, you'd look for the sentence to read, "(she) still saw superciliousness in their treatment of everybody except her sister." But by saying "hardly excepting her sister," Austen's telling us that the Bingley sisters are being supercilious to Jane too, so their affection for Jane is fake.

With your second question, actually 'slighted' in this usage does not mean 'offended', but 'overlooked' or 'put aside', as Elizabeth's possible dance partners have not chosen her. Darcy is really being heartlessly truthful & a little mean by mentioning her status out loud.

Hope this helps!