Jane Austen discussion

Post here all general discussions on Persuasion.

I just read this for the first time. I liked it very much- I'm surprised it's not better known. I think Wenworth was my favorite hero yet.
Something I was thinking of is: do you think Persuasion was Jane Austen's romanticized life story? She also refused someone when she was young because her family disapproved. Also, I would think her to be similar to Anne as far as personality goes. Did she, like Anne later in lif regret her rejection of whatever-his-name is? Interesting....

Blayre: I wonder about this, too. If Jane was more attached to Tom Lefroy than she admitted to in any surviving letters, perhaps she wrote "Persuasion" in part as an imaginary happy ending to replace the sad one of real life. The bitter irony is that Tom Lefroy became highly successful, and would have been considered at least as good a match for Jane as Wentworth is for Anne.

I'm sure that Jane put something of herself in many of her characters. I have a theory that Miss Bates in "Emma" is a picture of what Jane was terrified her own fate might be. But I really should save that thought for an "Emma" thread :-)

"Persuasion" is a wonderful book; mature and thoughtful, with a heroine who's known so much sadness that we feel her happiness will be all the stronger for it.

We have just finished Persuasion in our book club, and I must admit that it was better than I thought at first, even though Anne is not my favorite heroine. Her personality was so stressing to me that I was tempted to drop out the book, but I'm glad I finished it. It's really a very romantic story, altough that's not what I'm atracted to Jane Austen's books, you could not help to feel Anne's sorrow and frustration, looking her life goes by and her beloved man flirting with other women without can't do nothing about it.

I agree about it is Jane Austen's life what we see In Persuasion, because she had the same resignated attitude than Anne, and I believe that's why she always said she didn't feel too sad about her broke up with Tom Lefroy, mostly for not setting the blame on a specific person that probably persuaded her to reject Tom. It's indeed an interesting story...pity, that we all know how it ended in real life.

I'm confused...is not Austen's supposed marriage proposal from Lefroy mostly conjecture? As I remember she only had one proposal from the decidedly unfortunately-named Harris Bigg-Wither.

There is no existing evidence known to the public world that she and Lefroy shared the relationsip portrayed in Becoming Jane. (Granted I have seen the movie, but not read the Becoming Jane book). From the few surviving letters, they obviously shared a connection but it likely did not reach a marriage engagement. I believe there is evidence that Lefroy's economic situation was as told in Becoming Jane, so could have been the reason he and Jane did not pursue anything.

There was at least one other rumored romance, maybe more. I ran across the details of this just recently, I will post when I find it -- Michaela, I know your interest in Jane, I will try to find it.

I guess as moderns, we just don't know if any of these were her great love. Michaela makes a great point that either Austen based her unmatched writing on personal feelings or simply her great understanding of human beings. Again, we will never know.

To me, Persuasion is one of the most exquisite novels ever written. It does convey passion and emotion. I will always wonder what went into its writing! How can you not?

Claire Tomalin's biography titled Jane Austen provides insight on Jane's personal life and the existing letters. Have you read it Michaela, I think you would enjoy it.

I found a reference to another romance of Austen which apparently occurred early in life. It is funny though, because it is written exactly as hearsay. It is an excerpt of Sir Francis Hastings Doyle's Reminiscences and Opinions (1886). This is published in the Barnes and Noble Classics Edition of Persuasion (2003). If refers to her connection to a young naval officer she met in Switzerland.

Another interesting path to follow for a researcher of Jane Austen. Not me though -- I am supposed to be working on other writing projects! ha ha

Thanks for all the interesting info, Sarah!

You're so right Sarah! How could one not wonder over the basis for the writing that went into the heartache and regret of Anne Eliot? I see her now in Bath, trying to occupy her mind and stand the insipid conversation of her father discussing his complexion...

As I remember, from what I've read of Austen's letters online, I think Austen's facetious style of writing, being made "an offer", or having her "morals corrupted" are often made into something more than Austen's writing style - they're given creadence as real information. I sometimes wonder if her fans, ruined by "novel-reading", are prepared to use whatever they can scratch up in order to "imagine" a Sense and Sesibility type romance...(that was Austen irony).
I have not seen the movie "Becoming Jane", but I will say am not in any way disappointed in Jane Austen not being seen as attractive, desiriable person in the style of Elizabeth Bennet. So what if she was more of a Charlotte Lucas in real life... the best writers are not always their "best" characters...

It is interesting that you would say Ms Lucas, for being more like Jane Austen then Ms Bennet. I have read some where when discussing characters, Jane's favorite was Fanny Price. So I think of Jane more like her.

Enough of that. I just finished Persuasion and loved it. At first I had a hard time reading it because it is far more advanced then many of her earlier works. Not a lot of dialogue, but more inner thought with Anne. Like her enjoyment of playing the piano, because she could be by herself and play for her own enjoyment. It was a great read, and a book I will enjoy to pick up again.

I have never imagined JA to be like Anne although I have also heard Persuasion was supposed to be her own story. I liked the story, but was quite frustrated by Anne. I understand the historical context and how women really were pawns of their family (think "Other Boleyn girl..."
I guess I don't want to believe that JA would have been so weak that she gave up her one true love merely because someone told her she had to. I like to think of her as a strong and independent woman who perhaps did not marry because she knew she may become less of herself in doing so (a reality of the times)

I love Persuasion. Not as much as P&P but I love it! Anne Elliot is a great character (all the characters are) and I love the flow of this quietly beautiful story.

"A quietly beautiful story"....well said Samantha.

I just got here from the P&P discussions as Persuasion is my second favourite of all JA's books. My first reading of it was a fulfiling experience, definitely something I would like to revisit. I have recently formed an opinion since watching a movie adaptation that perhaps it describes a different set of people and is removed from P&P both in time as well as the setting. Anne, the Heroine, is older which is unique (I can't remember Emma's age, mostly younger) so maybe more pensive and not as passionate as Elizabeth. I can't quite say if that would have an effect on the story being a happy ending as opposed to being a replica of Jane's hypothesised broken heart.

P&P is still my number one JA book, I know it really well...whereas Persuasion I feel will have a few surprises for me on every turn of the page when I pick it up again ..and maybe again!! :)

Oh and I did want to comment on the Charlotte Lucas stuff which Michaela wrote about...I personally don't believe JA could be a Charlotte Lucas even if she were the plainest author of those times. Just cos she has written the most talked about romantic novel in P&P ...and maybe even Mr. Darcy!

While I believe that Austen's "Emma" is the most polished and probably the most sophisticated of her novels, I do believe that as I have grown older (a lot older - LOL ;-) that I love "Persuasion" the most. I think had Jane Austen survived longer, that she probably would have worked on "Persuasion" more and made it even more perfect than it is currently.

My point in posting, is this - In the English language is there any more poignant and beautiful prose than the following:

"I can listen no longer in silence. I must speak to you by such means as are within my reach. You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own, than when you almost broke it eight years and a half ago. Dare say not that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you. Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant. You alone have brought me to Bath. For you alone I think and plan. Have you not seen this? Can you fail to understand my wishes? I had not waited even these ten days, could I have read your feelings, as I think you must have penetrated mine. I can hardly write. I am every instant hearing something which overpowers me. You sink your voice, but I can distinguish the tones of that voice, when they would be lost on others. Too good, too excellent creature! You do us justice indeed. You do believe that there is true attachment and constancy among men. Believe it to be most fervent, most undeviating in...

F.W.

I must go, uncertain of my fate; but I shall return hither, or follow your party, as soon as possible. A word, a look will be enough to decide whether I enter your father's house this evening, or never."

As a man, all I can say is that after I read this letter for the first time I wished that I could have written something just one-tenth this romantic to my wife at some point in our life. It is the single most powerful letter of love I've read in my life. To me, this is the power of Jane Austen - she is able to completely describe what resides in our hearts and souls. She 'persuades' us to be human.

Persuasion is on my top ten of novels, period. Wentworth's letter is unquestionably beautiful. The novel also carries the power of such subtlety. I don't remember if I mentioned it in my previous comments, but I am drawn to the fact that Anne stands alone in her life, her thoughts, her emotions -- for years really. She has family and connections, but she feels the effects of her early decision about Wentworth internally, living with it silently. In a family such as hers, please! -- although the Uppercross branch of the family is well-meaning, they are still absorbed in their own. Her one true friend and connection is the man who she has refused and seen leave for years at sea.

I just think Anne is a brilliant, beautiful, silent character in literature. And when Wentworth re-enters the scene, only we are able to hear all these thoughts in her head. It is easy to be drawn to this novel -- so different from the rest.

I watched the Austen bio based movie starring Anne Hathway a couple of days back on tv. And, not knowing if it is conjecture or reality, I was left feeling really tearfully sad at the turn of events that led to her being alone and maybe lonesome. I can't imagine why anyone would want to change their hairstyle, did they really want to look older that early?? She was just 40ish when she died...And I guess that means that Wentworth exists only in fiction, if we presume that Anne Elliot's character is based on her love for Lefroy. <>

I liked the travel coat they used in the movie for the elopement. :D

They did make the characters aged too much in the scene when the main characters met again. Maybe the movie makers didn't think we would "get it" if the characters only looked to be in their forties. They did a good job with staging, apart from that, because I enjoyed the look of the sets and costumes also.

On this day in 1816, Jane Austen completed Persuasion.

I was alerted to this fact by the blog article Austen Unpersuaded.

Joy wrote: "On this day in 1816, Jane Austen completed Persuasion.

I was alerted to this fact by the blog article Austen Unpersuaded."

"I can listen no longer in silence..."

Can there be a better letter in all of the English language? I think not!

There ought not; there is not.

Joy wrote: "There ought not; there is not."

I have, for years, wanted to be Frederick Wentworth--

I wanted to write that letter. I wanted to be the author of that letter to Anne.

While some men might be embarrassed to own this, but I cannot read that letter without tears coming to my eyes. I wish to God that I could have written this letter to my wife. It is perfect. Just perfect.

It is absolutely brilliant and beautiful. It gives me butterflies just thinking about it. Sometimes I will just go and read the letter, but that usually leads to me reading the conclusion, which then usually leads me going back and re-reading the whole book :)

Did you take the Austen hero quiz?

(My husband was a Wentworth!)

Joy wrote: "It is absolutely brilliant and beautiful. It gives me butterflies just thinking about it. Sometimes I will just go and read the letter, but that usually leads to me reading the conclusion, which th..."

No, I've not taken the quiz. And I probably shouldn't, because I wouldn't want to end up being a Willoughby, or something. I love my fantasy. ;-)

I agree with you too, Joy; everytime I read the letter, I end up reading the novel. How can one not?

And, Joy, you are one very lucky woman to have a husband who loves you like that!

Don't I know it! Now I just need to figure out some way for him to secure a fortune like Wentworth did ;)

Just finished Persuasion...fell in love with Anne and Wentworth..want to see the movie now!!

I read Persuasion for the first time yesterday and I loved it, I read it in a day, I could not drop it, once I begun I had to finish it...my favorite novel is Pride & Prejudice by Austen and out of all novels, Persuasion is earning the second spot. I loved the characters, specially Anne, she's not as strong minded as Elizabeth Bennet but not as dull as Fanny Price(She's one character created by Austen that I dislike).

I enjoy the way Jane Austen takes you through the story, how she makes it easy to read yet it gives so much to think about....this book I'm going to read again x5, just like Pride & Prejudice

It is my favorite, Penelope, and you just keep on finding more every time you read it.

Megan wrote: "It is my favorite, Penelope, and you just keep on finding more every time you read it."

That's usually a characteristic good books have in common....every time you read again you find something new

Persuasion is my favourite too. I've read it so often I almost know sections by heart. But no matter how many times I go back to it, it never fails to draw me in and to move me.

Especially "The Letter"....

Oh indeed! The most perfect letter in literature, I think. Persuasion is such a passionate novel, in its quiet way. When I read it, I wonder at how Charlotte Bronte came to criticise Jane Austen in the way she did, saying "She ruffles her reader by nothing vehement, disturbs him [sic] with nothing profound. The passions are perfectly unknown to her: she rejects even a speaking acquaintance with that stormy sisterhood ... What sees keenly, speaks aptly, moves flexibly, it suits her to study: but what throbs fast and full, though hidden, what the blood rushes through, what is the unseen seat of life and the sentient target of death--this Miss Austen ignores....Jane Austen was a complete and most sensible lady, but a very incomplete and rather insensible...woman".

Yeah...the letter is so beautifully expressed...its not plain, neither over the top fuzzy...its just perfect!

I have to agree with you, Kim; what was Charlotte Bronte thinking? I wonder, after re-reading Wuthering Heights & Shirley recently, if the Brontes weren't just a little bit too unreasonable, a little too illogical in their passions. They still seem Gothic to me (as do many of their Victorian peers). I enjoy their books, but I do not live them as I do Jane's!

Karlyne wrote: "I have to agree with you, Kim; what was Charlotte Bronte thinking? I wonder, after re-reading Wuthering Heights & Shirley recently, if the Brontes weren't just a little bit too unreasonable, a litt..."

I agree. I have always thought that the Brontes were somewhat over the top. Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights are the only Bronte novels that I've ever been able to finish and Jane Eyre is the only one I actually like. I've started and haven't been able to finish all of the others. Admittedly, this was many years ago now and I possibly should give them another go. I suspect that I only like Jane Eyre because I first read it when I was about ten! I have thought that a thread in this group as to whether one can be passionate about both Jane Austen and the Brontes would be interesting!

Hmmm. What about the similarities and differences between Jane Eyre and Fanny Price, for instance? Jane Eyre being the favorite Bronte heroine and Fanny Price being the least favorite of Austen's heroines -- could a rousing discussion make both of them more real to us?

Karlyne wrote: "... could a rousing discussion make both of them more real to us?"

Excellent idea! Here's my start:

Jane Eyre / Fanny Price

Jane Eyre -- She does stuff. She's proactive. She advertises for a position; she stands up to Mr. Rochester when (she thinks) he's going to marry the wrong woman; she runs away when he 'propositions' her; she later seeks him out

Fanny Price -- IMO, all Fanny does is sit on the sofa, helping her Aunt Bertram, while the whole moral compass of the book revolves around her. She just sits and waits until (almost) everybody finally agrees with her way of thinking

I haven't read Jane Eyre, so I cannot make comparisons... but I thought Fanny was very dull.

Robin I agree with you about Fanny Price

Megan wrote: "Especially "The Letter"...."

"The Letter" just says it all.... sigh......

Hmmm. I can see I am going to have my work cut out for me defending Fanny...

Krista, the letter seems to be the focal point of Persuasion and Anne and Captain Wentworth's second chance at love. I love to see stories played out in this way. No heartbreak, everyone happy.

Karlyne wrote: "Hmmm. What about the similarities and differences between Jane Eyre and Fanny Price, for instance? Jane Eyre being the favorite Bronte heroine and Fanny Price being the least favorite of Austen's h..."

That would be an interesting discussion, Karlyne. I could say plenty about Jane, as she's my favourite Bronte heroine (by default, as I really only have Cathy to compare her with and I don't like Cathy!). However, I haven't re-read MF for ages. I am working myself up to do so in the hope that Fanny can rise in my estimation, because at the moment I do subscribe to the common view that she is on the dull side! Therefore I'm not in a position to do a compare and contrast exercise just yet, but I would be interested in what others have to say on the subject....

Haven't read Jane Eyre, or Mansfield Park so I don't know that I should compare the two. I kind of liked Fanny's spirit in the movie of Mansfield Park with Frances O'Connor. Have seen different film versions of Jane Eyre, that governess seems to me to be on the dark side, esp. with Mr. Rochester and his wife locked up.

I would agree Fannie is not an active heroine. Like Jane Eyre, Fannie was sent to live with family. But Jane Eyre had no one to help her out of a bad situation, Fannie was constantly reminded of her place and she knew she could not go back to her family without putting them in a worse financial burden. And unlike Jane Eyre, Fannie wasn't hated - she was tolerated and treated fairly well - not great, but nothing like Jane endured.

Having said that, I like Fannie's quietness. I like her maturity - her big picture perspective. She doesn't make the mistakes that Emma Woodhouse and Elizabeth Bennett make about handsome men with good manners - she's steadfast and unwavering in her devotion to a man that may never look at her as someone other than a beloved cousin - that takes a lot of heart.

20 years ago, I would have agreed with many of these comments, but now, I appreciate her. She's her own woman.

The love letter and a second chance at love isn't the sole reason why I adore Persuasion. It's how everyone in the family persuaded Anne or implored her to persuade others. She was her own Fanny Price until made up her mind and ignored anyone else's objections; she chased down Wentworth to seize what she wanted all this time.

I should photoshop the letter and print/frame it :) You know that would be a great letter to give a military couple who has been apart due to war tours. :)

Robin wrote: "Krista, the letter seems to be the focal point of Persuasion and Anne and Captain Wentworth's second chance at love. I love to see stories played out in this way. No heartbreak, everyone happy."

Terrific!

I just had a guest piece come out on "Persuasion in Persuasion" at a blog known as "My Jane Austen Book Club." You can find it here:

http://thesecretunderstandingofthehea...

As I read the story I was wondering why Cap. Wentworth doesn't want women on board his ship? What does it mean in the story, why do we witness him og his sister talk about that, what is he telling us? - Any thoughts?

My thoughts are
1. that the men saw women as a distraction. Being at sea for months on end and having a woman on board that was unattainable... Could cause tension and fighting...
2. The captain, if it was his wife, may feel more vulnerable when facing dangerous enemies or weather. His thoughts of her safety may override his sensibilities and cause him to make mistakes in judgement.

Ann-marie wrote: "My thoughts are
1. that the men saw women as a distraction. Being at sea for months on end and having a woman on board that was unattainable... Could cause tension and fighting...
2. The capta..."

I think, too, that he's thinking that it's a hard life for the woman herself, but as his sister does pooh-pooh that notion by reminding him of not only her own toughness but that of women in general I think he comes around to her thinking. Eventually!

The responses above seem right on target! I'd also add that common sailors were a rough lot, and a woman on board, even if the wife of a captain, would suffer indignities at best.