~Opinions~ discussion

Alright, so instead of blocking up the 'Ask - Muslims' discussion, for those of you who are currently reading the Quran tramsalation and come across something you want to know about, post the verse here and I'll TRY to help. Of course, since I'm no scholar, smethings may stay unclear coz I don't know everything. But I promise to do my best :D

"And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided." [Quran 2:48]

LOL i just posted this for no reason.

I was wondering about the strong view on disbelievers? It's in "Al-Baqara".

Yeah, so..? what about it

I think she wants you to explain it

Well, it's pretty obvious that people who dont believe on god go to hell, according to the qur'an. I was just wondering if it's commonly thouhght so between muslims, or if it's one of those things people choose to ignore?

I guess it's thought, but it's mostly about the way you live your life. I think.

It is commonly believed amongst muslims that people who don't believe in god shall go to hell.

However, it doesn't mean that muslims are perfect. Muslims technically believe anyone who sins and doesn't obey God's rules goes to hell.

rightly said, Marianna. Though the difference between a sinning muslim and a sinning non-muslim is that a muslim will stay a time period in hell to wash over his sins then go to heaven, but the non-muslims will stay there forever. same with a good non-muslim... he might even be better than a muslim in kindness and justice and all but his goods go to waste if he does not beleive. we only don't say this Emma because we don't want people to think badly, so we kind of, swerve round it if we don't have to say it.

but as ur reading quran, u know anyway so ^ what we beleive.

Kay. I'll just keep my opinions on that to myself I think.

You can voice them if you like, I'll try to correct your image..

Okay. But I doubt you'll be able to change my mind even in the slightest about this.

All the below are assuming I believed in hell:

I personally think people going to hell for not believeing in God is such a load of crap. I can't even begin to comprehend how completely unfair that is. God is just, they say. Well, if God is so just, he sure wouldn't care if people believed in him. It is not justice that a murderer gets to spend the majority of eternity in Heaven, whilst a peace-maker, one who has saved lives, gets to spend all of eternity in hell for the mere "crime" of not believing in God. That is not justice, and it can never be justice.

One of the reasons I have trouble with religions such as Christianity and Islam, is that both hold this view on people who don't believe in God. If God is just, he wouldn't care one bit if people believed in him or not. He would look at what they've done in their lives and make a decisions on what they have or have not achieved, not what they have or have not believed.

If this is the kind of justice God gives, I doubt that I would like being in his presence at all.

How would you feel if EVERYTHING somone had was because of you - including life - and he wouldn't even acknowledge you exist?

Probably not so well. However, I would not condem A GOOD PERSON who'd none GOOD DEEDS to an eternity of totoure, whereas a bad person would be allowed to swell in the most amazing eternity. Would you condem a good person to an eternity of totoure?

Also, it might be fit to remind you that God is not a person, so what might agrivate a human, really shouldn't matter to him. Unless you're sugesting God has flaws?

I agree with Emma here. Condemning someone who's been a good person throughout their life to an eternity of torture is not justice. Condemning someone to said faith for eternity just for not believing in something they've never seen proof on, is what could easily be called revenge.

Yes but good deeds done by unbeleivers is like he's throwing his goods into the fire... a waste. I don't know what the reason might be behind this, but for those who are grateful for there life, beleiving in God isn't so hard.

So you're saying that atheists, buddhists, hindus, etc. are less grateful for their lives than Muslims are? Yeah, right. I'm sorry to tell you this Amina, but you're wrong. They are just as grateful for their life as everybody else, they just believe what happens in it is due to random chance or other gods, and not Great Dude in the Sky. If this is how it is, what would be the reason for them to do good deeds, eh? They could just go around killing everybody in their sight, 'cause apparently it wouldn't make a difference in the end.

That people who don't believe in a specific God goes to hell, is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard, read and talked about. It is such a completely unfair way to look at people, that no matter what they do it wont be right, it wont be good enough, if they don't believe in specific things.

I beleive it and I beleive in whatever my God says to me and I have no right to say whether a certain person deserves something or not...

And by "beleiving in God" doesn't just mean acknowledging; when you beleive in God you do what He says. That is why the one who doesn't beleive goes to Hell. Now like Emma, don't get me wrong, I'm not judging or damning you to hell, I don't know what's in your future, but anyway: for you certain things are okay, eventhough you're a good person, overall. Whereas it is totally wrong in our relegion. Now because you don't beleive in my God, you don't take those laws into your life.

A non-Muslim(no matter if they are Christian, Atheist, Jew, Hindu etc), by definition, is a person who does not recognize God as a Sovereign Law giver Who rewards the good and punishes the bad. For this reason, he has no claim to any reward from God. He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will. So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Surah 2 Verse 62)

Here we find that Islam teaches that all people whether technically Jews or Christians or even Sabians (an ancient religious group) are entitled to be rewarded from God. That is on the condition that they believe in God and the Day of Judgment and lead a good life.


This is like something my dad told us.

But he also said something like... It's like studying really hard but not writing any tests. Or Studying hard for a university but not applying for any. Bahah my dad :P

Excuse me for the intrusion, but I would like to clear somethings up:

1. Let's get this out of the way first and foremost: I firmly believe that we are all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not here to change anyone's as long as they don't try to change mine. Clear?

2. Everyone who's reading the Quran's translation, please don't just read the first few chapters and call it quits. Read the whole book, or don't read it at all, and then you can rant on and on about it.

3. So you're saying that atheists, buddhists, hindus, etc. are less grateful for their lives than Muslims are?
No, actually, I believe that it all comes down to individuals. Are there more suicides among non-Muslims than Muslims? Yes. But am I blaming that solely on the fact that they are, in fact, non-Muslims? No. It's all about circumstances, but it is true that if a person believes in Islam, then we know that it is haraam, ie. unlawful for us to commit suicide as it is being ungrateful for God's favors, therefore, most Muslims do not commit suicide. But again, it's more than simply what we believe in; I'm by no means saying that all those who killed themselves are unfaithful or weak or whatever, that's another topic entirely.

4. Do you really believe that me, Emma, Anna, or even Nathan deserve to be whipped until we are broken, to have our skin burned off over and over again, to always be thirsty and never have water, to drown in a river of feces forever?
Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, can say anything about who's going where because we don't have that right. Only God decides who goes to Heaven and Hell because He knows us better than anyone (I know some of you are rolling your eyes at that, but that's what I seriously believe, so bear with me. :P)

We're all your average believers, and honestly, our faith is strong but I know our actions aren't that good. So by the end of the day, what I really think is that if any of you genuinely want to know about Islam, why not ask a scholar? I have many issues with Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. but I don't express them on this site or on any other site because you guys are all average believers; if I seriously want my confusions cleared up, I'll always ask a priest or rabi or someone who has qualifications, you know?

5. As for those who do good deeds all their life but still go to Hell, Muslims believe that those people are repaid in this life so that they get only punished for their bad deeds in the Hereafter. That repayment has many forms, i.e. kids, loving husband, best friends, roof over their heads, good job, etc. God is just and people are only dealt with based on their intentions and actions. And we also believe that more than half our life is simply destiny, what is meant to be, what is fate, as decided by God.

6. And I really hope I didn't confuse you guys further with this way-too-long post, and if any of you seriously wants to know more about Islam and the Quran, let me know and I'll link you to some sites where you can ask people who are actually qualified to answer you. :)

Wow, that is like an awesome reply, Lazuline. Well Done. Wow, you should be here more!

Yeah I agree :)

So at the end of the day, its just God who decides what happens to you I guess.

Yeah, He's powerful enough that He can put a good non-muslim into heaven if He wills.

Yep, so it all narrows down to that.

And to the fact that we aren't scholars and some things we can't explain.

Yeaaaah!

Me? Yes..

And by "beleiving in God" doesn't just mean acknowledging; when you beleive in God you do what He says.

Most people follow the majority of the commandments regardless of religion, so I don’t see why that would matter all that much.

Now like Emma, don't get me wrong, I'm not judging or damning you to hell, I don't know what's in your future,

By in her future, do you mean that you don’t know if she’ll go to heaven or hell, or if she might convert to Islam?

Now because you don't beleive in my God, you don't take those laws into your life.

I love how people get punished for drinking, and having sex before marriage. Gee, I would think I had the right to do what I like with my own body, without being condemned to an eternity of torture, but apparently I’m wrong.

A non-Muslim(no matter if they are Christian, Atheist, Jew, Hindu etc), by definition, is a person who does not recognize God as a Sovereign Law giver Who rewards the good and punishes the bad.

Oh, but you’re wrong. Christians, and as far as I know Jews too, believe exactly that. Christians, at the very least, believe that god is a higher power, who made humans in his picture, and that he is the one who decided whether a person go to heaven or hell. They also share your ridiculous views on those who does not believe what you believe.

Actually Islam and Christianity have a lot in common.

He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will.

So good deeds only matter when they have a special purpose. How nice of god to condemn people to an eternity of torture because they did good deeds from the goodness of their hearts, and not because they wanted to achieve special status in heaven.

So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

Ah, so “non-Muslims” don’t have morals now, eh? I assume that you know the meaning of the word “moral”, and therefor also know that it is not something that’s necessarily connected to religion.

Here we find that Islam teaches that all people whether technically Jews or Christians or even Sabians (an ancient religious group) are entitled to be rewarded from God.

So now Christians are alight? Further up this same post, you stated very clearly that:
A non-Muslim(no matter if they are Christian, Atheist, Jew, Hindu etc), by definition, is a person who does not recognize God as a Sovereign Law giver Who rewards the good and punishes the bad. For this reason, he has no claim to any reward from God. He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will. So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

Everyone who's reading the Quran's translation, please don't just read the first few chapters and call it quits. Read the whole book, or don't read it at all, and then you can rant on and on about it.

As far as I know, none of us two people who are reading the current have quitted, so I don’t see where you get that from. We are, of course, perfectly capable of ranting on about how ridiculous and very unjust it is of god to just condemn every person who does not worship him to an eternity of torture, since the belief on that is very clear.

Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY, can say anything about who's going where because we don't have that right. Only God decides who goes to Heaven and Hell because He knows us better than anyone
The below assuming the qur’an was written by god:

Why would god write it very clearly in the qur’an that all non-believers go to hell, if he didn’t intend to enforce this?

We're all your average believers, and honestly, our faith is strong but I know our actions aren't that good. So by the end of the day, what I really think is that if any of you genuinely want to know about Islam, why not ask a scholar?

Well to say it mildly, I don’t have the time to go to a mosque and see a scholar. Also, what is the problem with asking you guys when I come across something odd in the qur’an?

I have many issues with Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. but I don't express them on this site or on any other site because you guys are all average believers

It’s a debate/discussion/opinions group. You can express it all you like, so long as you can back up what you say, and don’t just shoot them down for no other reason than their religions disagreeing with yours.

And you might not’ve noticed this, but there are very few seriously Christians here, one jew and, as far as I know, no Buddhists or Hindus. There’re a bunch of atheists and the like though, and abnormally many Muslims, not an insult, just a statement.

As for those who do good deeds all their life but still go to Hell, Muslims believe that those people are repaid in this life so that they get only punished for their bad deeds in the Hereafter.

Nice believe, but it’s a load of crap. I know many good people who’ve had to go trough shit in their lives, and who do not believe in your god. Those I know have done a lot of good things, for their family, their friends and for complete strangers, yet they seem to be handed the black cat in life.

God is just and people are only dealt with based on their intentions and actions.

(Amina)That is why the one who doesn't beleive goes to Hell.
I have to say that the more I hear Christians and Muslims talk about god, the less I like him.
“You saved lives! But you don’t believe in me! Burn in hell, be tortured for all of eternity! This is justice”
“You saved lives! But you had sex before marriage! Burn in hell, be tortured for all of eternity! This is justice!”
– yeah, no thanks. If heaven means being near someone who performs this kind of “justice” I’ll take my chances with hell.

End of rant.

What's the point in talking about what's going to happen after your life if you don't even believe in heaven or hell?

This topic is explaining what Muslims belive in and the Quran. It's all faith. If there was so much proof then the need of faith would be lost.

What's the point in talking about what's going to happen after your life if you don't even believe in heaven or hell?

Honestly, I'm not sure what I believe. I do know this much though: I don't want to believe in a god who has such a view on people.

This topic is explaining what Muslims belive in and the Quran.

Yes, but it is also a topic in a debate group, and since I see no "This Folder *READ" explaining that the contest is not up for debating, only for questioning, I will do just that if I feel it is needed.

It's all faith. If there was so much proof then the need of faith would be lost.

Ah, so there is no real, solid proof of religion? Well, no surprise there. I could live in a world without faith in god. There are many other things to keep faith in. I don't think "you should all believe in me without any real proof, or you'll be condemned to an eternity of torture!" is a good enough reason for god not to show him/her/itself so everybody can see that he exists, if he exists.

Alright, so instead of blocking up the 'Ask - Muslims' discussion, for those of you who are currently reading the Quran tramsalation and come across something you want to know about, post the verse here and I'll TRY to help. Of course, since I'm no scholar, smethings may stay unclear coz I don't know everything. But I promise to do my best :D

That's what's written at the beginning of this topic. Someone asked about a part of the Quran and we're answering. It's also mentioned that we're not sholars and we don't know all your answers. So basically what you're saying is that our belief is a bunch of crap. Just research about Islam from a reliable site and maybe you'll have some answers.

That's what's written at the beginning of this topic.

"This group is for people of all ages, who seek to discuss, debate and share their opinions with others." - Group description.

So basically what you're saying is that our belief is a bunch of crap. J

No. I am not saying your religion is a bunch of crap. Feel free to go back and read my posts, to get a clear vision of what it is that I'm saying. I've said that I, Anna, think god is unjust, and that's my right as a person in a free world. I have told Lazuline that the belief she stated is nice, but a bunch of crap, which I stand by. I know from personal experiences that what she said is not true, and therefor I am entitled to tell her so. I have never and will never tell someone that their religion is a bunch of crap, though I will certainly argue against it.

So please, I'm asking you to read my posts the next time you make such a statement, so as to not say something that is not true.

I didn't say you directly said it. But yeah... Here check this out,

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070...

I didn't say you directly said it.

You told me that I basically said that your religion is a bunch of crap. It wasn't a question, it was a statement.

And I'm reading the link now.

Okay cool.

Amina wrote: "Wow, you should be here more!"

No, thanks. Debates are way too time-consuming. :P

I love how people get punished for drinking, and having sex before marriage. Gee, I would think I had the right to do what I like with my own body, without being condemned to an eternity of torture, but apparently I’m wrong.

We all have choices. We all sin, but the difference is at least thinking it a vice in your heart and knowing that God will forgive you as long as you believe in Him. If you don't believe in Him to begin with, then how can it even matter whether a person is a psychopath or Gandhi? If one doesn't care about, or even believe in, the consequence of his actions, then what's stopping him from cheating on his wife, killing his children, just letting go of it all and wallowing in grief?

So good deeds only matter when they have a special purpose. How nice of god to condemn people to an eternity of torture because they did good deeds from the goodness of their hearts, and not because they wanted to achieve special status in heaven.

Again, it all comes down to whether or not you believe in the consequences of your deeds. We, as Muslims, believe that we shouldn't do good deeds for the sake of people because, and this is not just an Islamic opinion, it's internationally accepted that, you can never ever satisfy people. Just doesn't happen. People are selfish and they always want, rarely give. So we have the goal of pleasing God, and in the process, we believe that the people will also be satisfied, but that's not our purpose. For example, if my mom tells me to do the dishes and I do them, my goal isn't to please my mother. I'm doing it because God told me to obey my parents and in the process, if I so happen to please me mom, then double the benefit.

And the same goes for our bad deeds. We believe that we are sinners, but that if we sincerely ask God to forgive us, He will because He is the Most Merciful. Allah says:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

So now Christians are alight?

Christians, and anyone else, who believes in ONE God and doesn't associate any partners with Him is "alright" and will, by the Mercy of Allah, go to Paradise after he has atoned for his sins. And again, I'm not saying that's a given - it's all totally and completely in God's hands who goes to Paradise and who goes to Hell. He isn't obligated or bound by the logic we use.

As far as I know, none of us two people who are reading the current have quitted, so I don’t see where you get that from. We are, of course, perfectly capable of ranting on about how ridiculous and very unjust it is of god to just condemn every person who does not worship him to an eternity of torture, since the belief on that is very clear.

*sigh* Just because you haven't doesn't mean that you won't, as far as I know. So just suggesting something is no basis of getting all technical. And I never said you weren't capable of ranting; all I'm saying is that you should have solid ground on which you're basing your argument; and since you and Lindsay seem to have that, I'm going to try my best to be reasonable and help you out, or, at the very least, just present my views on the topic.

Why would god write it very clearly in the qur’an that all non-believers go to hell, if he didn’t intend to enforce this?

Non-believers is a very multi-dimensional term. It's referring to those who do not believe that there's a God out there Who has power over everything. So is you don't even believe in Him, then how can you expect Him to be merciful to you, to forgive you, when you don't even acknowledge His presence?

Well to say it mildly, I don’t have the time to go to a mosque and see a scholar. Also, what is the problem with asking you guys when I come across something odd in the qur’an?

And I don't have the time, among other things, to write out my replies in the detail I would like to help you out. That's the problem with asking me, because (and I'm speaking for the Muslims in the this discussions so far so feel free to correct me, you guys) none of us have that much knowledge. We read the Quran, it's meanings, ask the scholars about the things we have problems with, and acquire knowledge wherever we can. But that doesn't make us experts, and this isn't your average debate about who should be president. If you truly want your questions answered in a convincing way, you need to ask a scholar and you don't have to go the mosque to do that; you can do it just as well online or even over the phone. http://islam-qa.com is a fantastic website where you can just search for keywords in your questions and details on the topic will come up or you can ask questions separately, too.

It’s a debate/discussion/opinions group. You can express it all you like, so long as you can back up what you say, and don’t just shoot them down for no other reason than their religions disagreeing with yours.

I don't believe I've shot down anything without evidence so far, but correct me if I'm wrong...with proof, of course.

Nice believe, but it’s a load of crap. I know many good people who’ve had to go trough shit in their lives, and who do not believe in your god. Those I know have done a lot of good things, for their family, their friends and for complete strangers, yet they seem to be handed the black cat in life.

So, what, Muslims don't go through shit? I, personally, have been through a lot and despite popular belief that I'm "blindly" following whatever my parents tell me to do, I actually chose to be Muslim. I was born Muslim, yes, but there was a period in my life when I couldn't believe that if there was a God, how could He be so cruel to me? I was done with everything, but a teeny-tiny part of me still knew there was God out there. So then I did research, and found out that the religion of God is truly Islam and that everything bad that happens in this life is simply because God wants to test us, see where our loyalties lie because He loves us. Parents test the loyalties of their children, lovers do the same, friends as well, so why can't God?

I have to say that the more I hear Christians and Muslims talk about god, the less I like him.
“You saved lives! But you don’t believe in me! Burn in hell, be tortured for all of eternity! This is justice”
“You saved lives! But you had sex before marriage! Burn in hell, be tortured for all of eternity! This is justice!”
The answer to those, and other statements, are mentioned quite clearly here:
http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/2690/

I know from personal experiences that what she said is not true, and therefor I am entitled to tell her so.

Which part of what I said do you know from personal experience to not be true?

I'm not saying if you do what I did you'll end up the same way, I'm just saying it might be time to look at your own beliefs from a skeptical stance and try to find your own truth instead of copying from your parents.

I, personally, have been there and done that. I never believe in things because you said so, or my mom said so, or anyone else said so. I am my own person, I make my decisions, and it is always a good idea to read about other religions of the world as long as you don't simply set aside your current religion because it may be that you don't even have sufficient knowledge of the latter to actually make a sound decision.

Yeah of course if my parents were christian I would be too. But yeah, i'm not that stupid. I know hpw to research a little. I dont see anything wrong in my religion.

Why does god care if he gets credit in the human world for what he does? Why would that matter to him?

Because when you beleive, you obey. And obedience is what God wants.

We all have choices. We all sin, but the difference is at least thinking it a vice in your heart and knowing that God will forgive you as long as you believe in Him. If you don't believe in Him to begin with, then how can it even matter whether a person is a psychopath or Gandhi?

Because a psychopath is a danger to him/herself and his/her surroundings, whereas Gandhi spread peace and love wherever he went.

If one doesn't care about, or even believe in, the consequence of his actions, then what's stopping him from cheating on his wife, killing his children, just letting go of it all and wallowing in grief?

Basic morals. Laws of a country. Do you see every atheist in this world on the streets, randomly shooting at everybody in sight? Do you see Buddhists, Hindus and the like all cheating on their significant others? No, of course you don’t. People don’t need to fear death their whole lives to be good people, or to avoid doing bad things.

Again, it all comes down to whether or not you believe in the consequences of your deeds.

There is almost always consequences for a persons action, be that a good or a bad action, regardless of religion. If you kill, you go to jail or, in some places, you get a death penalty and die. If you steal, you go to jail. If you’re unfaithful, chances are that your significant other will divorce you, and your society will be disgusted with you, and some would probably stop trusting you altogether. There is no need of a supposed burning pit of anguish and fire for people to feel the consequences of their actions. This goes for good actions too.

We, as Muslims, believe that we shouldn't do good deeds for the sake of people because, and this is not just an Islamic opinion, it's internationally accepted that, you can never ever satisfy people. Just doesn't happen.

People will usually, and especially in their youth, want more than they have. This however does not mean that they’re not happy with what they get, does not mean that they don’t appreciate being cared for, does not mean that they think good deeds done for them are worthless. I doubt god would care if I told my friend a joke that made her laugh. I, however, would have achieved something, given something, and she would have got something. She would have got a good laugh she would, for the moment, feel good. I would have made her laugh, making myself feel good that she feels good. God doesn’t need to be the purpose for someone to do good. People all over the world do good deeds, for many different reasons. Do you believe muslims are better people, simply because you believe in god?

And the same goes for our bad deeds. We believe that we are sinners, but that if we sincerely ask God to forgive us, He will because He is the Most Merciful. Allah says:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

Of course, this only counts for half the people in the world. The rest doesn’t matter, since they don’t believe in god. He says that he’ll forgive all sins if you regret, but apparently it only counts as regretting if the regretting is done out of fear, and not simply because you realise what you did was wrong, and feel bad about it.

Christians, and anyone else, who believes in ONE God and doesn't associate any partners with Him is "alright" and will, by the Mercy of Allah, go to Paradise after he has atoned for his sins. And again, I'm not saying that's a given - it's all totally and completely in God's hands who goes to Paradise and who goes to Hell. He isn't obligated or bound by the logic we use.

Yes I know that, according to the qur’an, people who believe in the god of Abraham are alright. I asked the question because Ruby made to statements in a post, the first one saying that Christians do not believe in one god and so do not belong to heaven, and the second one saying the complete opposite.

*sigh* Just because you haven't doesn't mean that you won't, as far as I know.

Well, just because you haven’t killed anyone doesn’t mean you won’t. Would you like me to tell you that you shouldn’t kill, or would you want me to wait until you actually do it, if you do it?

Non-believers is a very multi-dimensional term. It's referring to those who do not believe that there's a God out there Who has power over everything. So is you don't even believe in Him, then how can you expect Him to be merciful to you, to forgive you, when you don't even acknowledge His presence?

Because he is supposed to be this high, good being. If he was so great and so good, I doubt that something so trivial as whether or not a person believe in his existence would matter. I wouldn’t take that into consideration, when deciding where a person should spend eternity, and I am but a “mere human”. If I wouldn’t do it because I know it is wrong on such a stupid basis, why would god?

And I don't have the time, among other things, to write out my replies in the detail I would like to help you out.

I’m not asking you to. Heck, I’m not asking anyone to. If I have a question, something I find odd, I’ll ask, and if you don’t want to or can’t give me an answer, it completely alright. But I don’t see the problem with posting a simple question when I come across odd things in the qur’an.

If you truly want your questions answered in a convincing way, you need to ask a scholar and you don't have to go the mosque to do that; you can do it just as well online or even over the phone. http://islam-qa.com is a fantastic website where you can just search for keywords in your questions and details on the topic will come up or you can ask questions separately, too.

I will see a muslim scholar some day, possibly when I’m out of school. Right now I’m busy, and rarely have time to see my friends, much less a scholar.

I don't believe I've shot down anything without evidence so far, but correct me if I'm wrong...with proof, of course.

I never said you have. I was telling you that you can express any opinion you would like to express, as long as you back it up.

Actually you are a good debater, not like others I’ve stumbled upon here on Goodreads. You back up your claims, and provide what you believe to be evidence. I can respect that.

So, what, Muslims don't go through shit?

I didn’t say that. When have I said that? I told you that I know good people who don’t believe in your god, and still go trough shit. I told you this because you said the following:

As for those who do good deeds all their life but still go to Hell, Muslims believe that those people are repaid in this life so that they get only punished for their bad deeds in the Hereafter.

If good people were really repaid in this life, they wouldn’t have to go trough cancer, rape, unfaithful boyfriends, alcoholic parents, divorced parents, death parents, etc.

I, personally, have been through a lot and despite popular belief that I'm "blindly" following whatever my parents tell me to do, I actually chose to be Muslim. I was born Muslim, yes, but there was a period in my life when I couldn't believe that if there was a God, how could He be so cruel to me? I was done with everything, but a teeny-tiny part of me still knew there was God out there. So then I did research, and found out that the religion of God is truly Islam and that everything bad that happens in this life is simply because God wants to test us, see where our loyalties lie because He loves us.

Firstly, I’m sorry for whatever you went trough. Secondly, I have gone trough my own shit, and I don’t find Islam to be the true religion or belief, or whatever else you want to call it. I also do not believe Christianity or Judaism to be the truth, and frankly, I think I’m more of an agnostic than anything else. I was raised in a Christian family, and have grown up with the firm belief that god exists. Of course, this believe faltered long ago, when I started to see the truth: god is a lie people have made up to explain the unexplainable.

Parents test the loyalties of their children, lovers do the same, friends as well, so why can't God?

You parents and friends test your loyalty? That’s harsh. My family trusts me, and only if I break that trust will they doubt me. The same goes for my friends. I have been tested in a friendship once and frankly, she wasn’t a very good friend to begin with. Testing people you love just seems wrong to me. You (universal) trust the people you love, and so you wouldn’t need to test them. If god loved us, it wouldn’t need to test us.


The answer to those, and other statements, are mentioned quite clearly here:
http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/2690/

First of all, both the Christian and the Muslim on this link are outright telling each other that the others belief is a lie, and that their own belief is the better, which is stupid by both of them.
Besides that, everything on that link only proves what I have said: God doesn’t give a shit about you unless you believe in him, which is very unjust.

The Muslim in that debate, when shooting down Christianity, said:

“An ordinary man would not accept anyone harming his child; he would come to his defence, and would never hand him over to an enemy who would insult him, let alone leave him to face the worst kind of death. If this is the attitude of a mere created being, what then of the Creator?”

I say: An ordinary man/woman would not condemn a good person to an eternity of torture, thirst and humiliation, whilst watching from a garden of wonder, just because said person does not believe in said ordinary man/woman. If this is the attitude of a mere “created” being, what then of “the Creator”?

Which part of what I said do you know from personal experience to not be true?

I have already explained this further up.

Lindsay wrote: "Can't I follow a logical moral code without believing in an illogical being?"

It's not only a logical moral code, as I've said before

Ruby:)ForgetAboutTheSunshine wrote: "I didn't say you directly said it. But yeah... Here check this out,

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070..."

Can I ask what you hoped to achieve with this link?

Here check this out,

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070601...

First of all I would, like Emma, like to know what you hoped to achieve with this link? It is clearly written by a Christian and meant to prove the Christian god and Christianity.

The link promises absolute proof that god exists, but gives none such thing. There is talked about how clock are imperfect, and that it is much more accurate to read the stars, when measuring time. He leaves out, that it is extraordinarily difficult to read time precisely, without using a watch, and that few people can actually do this.

His next proof is on the laws of science, at which he uses quotes from a nearly 50 year old science book. His argument seems to be, that because science evolves, because it keeps bettering itself, and the bible stays the same throughout time, the bible must be true.

He clearly has very little knowledge of science, which is shown when he mentions the Big Bang. He seems to be under the conviction, that when it, according to science, happened, the universe was what it is today from the start. He doesn’t mention that the earth wasn’t there from the beginning.

At the end, I can conclude, from treading the link, that he is either uninformed or a liar. Or there is no proof that god exists.

I didnt mean to 'Achieve' anything. I just thought it was pretty cool. Wow.

So you didn't mean it as a link to the proof of Gods existence?

Uh no... I already learnt that beliefs arent changing :)

Then I don't understand. What's the point with the link then?

Should I delete it?

No. Never delete a post you've written, unless it's uttermost necessary.