~Opinions~ discussion

I don't think it should be taken literally, especially if it doesn't make a lot of sense and if you know that your book has been changed.

I think it should be treated for what it is: A fairytale. Sure, they claim they've found the Ark on a mountain, but it's not like they've got any such proof. "Look! There are some old planks on that mountain! If I turn my head this way and close my left eye, it could look slightly like the residues of a boat! It MUST be Noah's Ark! How else would a bunch of unidentifies planks end up on a mountain!". Seriously, c'mon.

I guess. Make more sense out of it and find a moral or something.

Well, since it's in the Quran, I beleive it happened... Noah's story, that is. Does it really make a difference, though?

Amina wrote: "Well, since it's in the Quran, I beleive it happened... Noah's story, that is. Does it really make a difference, though?"

I agree.

The Ark doesn't make sense because how would all the animals of the world, after departing the Ark, go to the places on earth where evolution tells us we should expect to find them? Australia is an island, so it's biologically isolated, and almost all the marsupials just happen to swim across the ocean from Noah to Australia? Even the ones that can't swim?

Lindsay wrote: "Noah's Ark is impossible for a list of reasons."

Kindly post the "list". I take Noah's Ark literally and since I don't beleive in evolution, then I don't need to worry about that.

Didn't you say Muslims believe in evolution Amina?

"Kindly post the "list". I take Noah's Ark literally and since I don't beleive in evolution, then I don't need to worry about that. "

1867491 The Ark doesn't make sense because how would all the animals of the world, after departing the Ark, go to the places on earth where evolution tells us we should expect to find them? Australia is an island, so it's biologically isolated, and almost all the marsupials just happen to swim across the ocean from Noah to Australia? Even the ones that can't swim?

It's possible that Australia was connected to mainland before.

Not during the time that Bible is set in. Pangaea broke apart millions of years ago. Australia hasn't been connected to the mainland during the time of humans.

Lauren wrote: ""Kindly post the "list". I take Noah's Ark literally and since I don't beleive in evolution, then I don't need to worry about that. "

1867491 The Ark doesn't make sense because how would all the ..."

Firstly @Ems: sorry, I misunderstood.

@Lauren: Those that can't swim can walk, or run, or slide, or whatever, right? And if God could save them from such a disaster, why can't He make His creations travel to their respective places?

"@Lauren: Those that can't swim can walk, or run, or slide, or whatever, right? And if God could save them from such a disaster, why can't He make His creations travel to their respective places? "

Because why would God place all the animals of the Earth exactly where we would expect to find them if evolution was acting on them? Is it better to assume that evolution is true, which it certainly looks like, or that evolution isn't true, despite what obviously see. Furthermore, and all-seeing, all-knowing being put them all there. All other things being equal, which makes the least number of assumptions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27...

So that it makes sense to us

"So that it makes sense to us"

This doesn't answer the question. Evolution allows people to not believe in Creation by giving them a valid alternative that was not there through most of history. By your response, you're saying that God purposely did something that causes people to not believe in him, and used the most complicated and extended method possible to have life.

Err no, God did it so we could understand science along with beleiving in Him. We beleive, yet there's an explanation - scientific, that is - for most things.

"God did it so we could understand science along with beleiving in Him. We beleive, yet there's an explanation - scientific, that is - for most things. "

If there is a scientific explanation, there is no need for God. He has no job to do if we know how everything works.

God made science... without Him, science wouldn't work out. If God didn't create such animals, they wouldn't go to the places they evolved from, etc etc.

If God made science, why does science disprove God? Everything that the Bible attributes to God, omnipotent, omniscient, made the Earth in 7 days, Adam and Eve were the first people, whatever it is, science shows it didn't happen that way. It says the Bible isn't true. That there's no place for God in this universe, because there is no reason for him to exist. There's no proof he exists. Why would God create a universe that seems to determined to prove he doesn't exist?

"If God didn't create such animals, they wouldn't go to the places they evolved from, etc etc. "

Amina, honestly, if you can't make a single coherent thought, there's no point in trying to defend whatever your claims are.

Lauren just to point out, the Bible was written by men not by God so Christians usually discredit some of it

No, Bibles fine since we beleive in the 7-day thing too... and to that, I have to say that most science (the things in Quran) do not disapprove God, it only gives more proof that God hasn't created this world like a fairy-tale but with rpoper systems and scientific ways.

First of all, an ark that can hold six million animals is going to be one big ass arc.

There can be two explanations for this: maybe there weren't that many animals at that time. Were you there to witness how many speicies even existed at that time? Or maybe God ordereed male and female of some species that later evolved. So this information isn't very clear.

All that water is going to have destroyed all the plant life on earth,

Wait up! Are you sying Noah travelled the whole world and taught people and when they didn't listen, God sent His punishment? Maybe there were other places on Earth that they migrated to after the flood. Maybe the water didn't hit the places where no humans existed at that time..

(cough adam and eve cough).

I donno what you mean by that, and I'd rather not know. But as for the 'fifty or more' thing... who said that? Every male and female made more by God's leave and reproduced their own kind.

And to your "question": What God did here wasn't pure magic. 'wave your wand and ta-da'. If God just did those kind of miracles than it would be much easier for us to beleive in Him and then there'd be no test for us.

"There can be two explanations for this: maybe there weren't that many animals at that time. Were you there to witness how many speicies even existed at that time? Or maybe God ordereed male and female of some species that later evolved. So this information isn't very clear. "

What about the animals that eat others? Where did they store the feeding animals? And that's a good point, where did he save the billions of plant species that currently exist in the rainforest?

Those grew ofcourse... it isn't said that Noah took plant species too.

@Amina: I think I remember the story of Noahs ark saying that he did take plant species with him. I'll have to look it up though, but my Bible is at my moms.

I don't think that's the story I beleive in. I need to check too.

He had to have taken plants. Do you know how many thousands of herbivores he had on his ship? Where exactly did he keep all these plants for them? And where did he keep the food animals for the carnivores?

I'll admit Lindsay that I don't know the specifics of this particular story. I will have to look into it. But for me; that which I don't undertsnad very well, I leave it to faith; that God can do what He wants so I have no right to question.

But very well, I will further look into the topic and the specifics about this story in the Quran.

Uh-hum, if you reread my post, I said I'll look into it. That means I'm wondering about it myself and I know my relegion will provide a sensible answer for me about it.

No, I do go by what I said, but for thisd particular case I said I'd look into it for your sake. For me, life isn't all about questioning every bloody thing you come across.

"For me, life isn't all about questioning every bloody thing you come across. "

And why the fuck not? Why don't you want to have a mind and use it, instead of letting it waste and atrophy by blindly following what someone tells you to follow?

Not what someone tells me, what I beleive, and what makes sense to me. And instead of questioning everything, I'd rather enjoy my life while I have it, you know. You can question everything and anything if you want to.

You only believe because you were told to. If no one ever told you about God or anything else, what would lead you to conclude he exists, just from your own observations, with no influence from anyone else?

How can you enjoy life when you think a creepy bearded dude in the sky is obsessively watching your every move?

"creepy bearded dude"

Who said he had a beard? :O

Lauren wrote: "You only believe because you were told to. If no one ever told you about God or anything else, what would lead you to conclude he exists, just from your own observations, with no influence from any..."

That's my business. And yeah, I've been told, not forced. I think it's right, so you have no right to tell me I'm wrong. It's my own personal thing... none of anyone's business what I beleive or don't. So thanks, but please, stick to your own beleifs.

"none of anyone's business what I beleive or don't"

Then why are you in a debate group.

I'm debating what I want to debate about; and my relegion isn't one of them. What I beleive is what I beleive; I'm not here to change my faith.

Then why are you here? Don't expect to be able to convert anyone if you blind yourself to everyone else's points. That would be so hypocritical. I know exactly what would change my beliefs because I base them on logic and reason. If you say nothing would change your mind, you're being foolish.

Yeah, I'm here to debate... not read bad remarks about what I beleive in. I listen to what others have to say; but I won't take it if you start making fun of my beleifs. You tell me why or why not you beleive something, but don't get personal.

actually, this group is for civilized debating..

Civilized is without name-calling. Ask anyone

I said, ask anyone. Name-calling isn't civilized

I'm just gonna butt in here real quick with a defination, as is my norm:

"1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable: terrorist acts that shocked the civilized world.
3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished."

"I'm here to debate... not read bad remarks about what I beleive in. I listen to what others have to say; but I won't take it if you start making fun of my beleifs. You tell me why or why not you beleive something, but don't get personal. "

It is personal. My atheism is very personal to me. If you can't take someone poking what you think, maybe it's not such a good thing to be thinking.

"Name-calling isn't civilized "

Fuck society. Words only have the power you give to them. Fuck only offends you because you let it offend you.

Lindsay wrote: "I think a number of people would disagree with you. Nathan, for example. Or Lauren, probably."

Yeah, all the uncivilized people I've come across yet in this group. Me and Emma have debated much, we're of different opinions in most cases; I don't remember her ever being rude to me, or makking fun of relegion.

lol uncivilized. You've been living in a bubble if no one has enough passion to defend their position without compromise.

I believe in Noahs ark mainly because I am Christian and it is in the bible. Even if no one has ever found the ark, or whatever, doesnt mean it doesnt exist, it could just mean that it is lost to the world, or disintegrated after the millions, maybe even billions of years old. I mean in that time there are millions of possibilities of why no one can find it. Such as termites eating out the wood or other stuff that would eat away the wood. So that's my opinion.

And you have no proof for that opinion, so no one can respect it. Where is your proof?

There is, of course, no proof of Noah's Ark. The nutjobs who think they discovered it on Mount Ararat are obviously wrong.

Lauren wrote: "And you have no proof for that opinion, so no one can respect it. Where is your proof?"

There doesnt have to be proof you see. The bible is all the proof you need if u just believe in it.